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DarkRise
1644 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:38 Namu wrote: I think last season of GSL was pretty clear protoss domination, 3/4 of the RO4 was Protoss. However, overall, I agree that Terran has gotten the better end of it. First and Second GSL had 3/4 terrans and not to mention 4 T finalists 1 T champion so a terran is basically in 5/6 GSL finals. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:41 Alpina wrote: Lol so first time toss lost and now every toss player gonna talk about how toss isn't strong at all.. :D First time? I seem to recall MC, Genius, and San already making their exits, along with there being a grand total of one toss player left in Code A, so, no, I wouldn't use the words "first time" here. | ||
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Ezekyle
Australia607 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:36 izgodlee wrote: "how do you beat this" and "how is it possible to beat this build" is basically the same thing, and you just added "nothing can work against it" for some reason when it isnt anywhere in his post. In conclusion i think you're just bias as fuck. The wording you use is rather important in setting the tone of any sort of message, particularly on the internet where there's nothing but wording. For example, "in conclusion i think you're just bias as fuck" gives a very different impression than, say, "in conclusion i think your opinions are strongly affected by bias". The main difference between 'how do you beat this' and 'how is it possible to beat this' is that the latter implies that there's a distinct possibility that beating it isn't possible. With the former you're assuming that a solution exists and asking for it, the latter is asking if there's any conceivable way to defeat that build. For example, "how do pigs fly?" vs. "how is it possible for pigs to fly?" In theory they're asking the same question, but actually they're very different. As for the 'nothing can work against it', he asked how it's possible to beat it, and in the same post listed two builds that beat it, so clearly he's dismissed 4gate and 3gate pressure immediately, otherwise what's the point in asking how to beat this build? If you list every way to beat a build and then dismiss them all, you're indirectly claiming that nothing beats it. For example, "how are collosus possible to beat, seems the only way is to make corruptors". Clearly, if this hypothetical poster believed that making corruptors was a viable option that would allow him to win the game, he wouldn't be asking this question. Thus, we must assume that he believes there is some critical flaw in the 'make corruptors d00d' plan, and that it will not work. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:44 HolyArrow wrote: First time? I seem to recall MC, Genius, and San already making their exits, along with there being a grand total of one toss player left in Code A, so, no, I wouldn't use the words "first time" here. when was genius ever considered top tier. sand was considered aweful, played well in like 3 games, suddenly when he loses again its a shocker. and mc isnt the only previous champion to fall to up/down, one of every race has. people are reading too much into the results without looking at context | ||
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Asvhald
Spain199 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:38 Namu wrote: I think last season of GSL was pretty clear protoss domination, 3/4 of the RO4 was Protoss. However, overall, I agree that Terran has gotten the better end of it. Yeah, 1 season ago it was 3 Protoss 1 Zerg in the Ro4. However, in GSL Jan, it was 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4, 4 Terrans in Code A Ro4. In GSL 3, 2 Terrans 2 Protoss in Ro4 In GSL 2, 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4 In GSL 1, 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4 So Protoss are "imba" for having superior representation 1 season, and Terran, who got 11 out of 20 (hint: 55%) of the total GSL semifinalists (and only talking about Code S, because Code A is always Terrantopia) are fine, yes? | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:46 Asvhald wrote: Yeah, 1 season ago it was 3 Protoss 1 Zerg in the Ro4. However, in GSL Jan, it was 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4, 4 Terrans in Code A Ro4. In GSL 3, 2 Terrans 2 Protoss in Ro4 In GSL 2, 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4 In GSL 1, 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4 So Protoss are "imba" for having superior representation 1 season, and Terran, who got 11 out of 20 (hint: 55%) of the total GSL semifinalists (and only talking about Code S, because Code A is always Terrantopia) are fine, yes? You can't judge balance based on outdated data, not that I encourage any balance discussion. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
You at least will do energy damage (important), and most of the time will kill a lot, then you can either finish the game right there, or just throw a quick 3rd and 4rt, teching to lair. It is a very smart build in the current metagame where protosses are 3 gate sentries expanding, because you can produce like 10 roaches/minute. | ||
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Asvhald
Spain199 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:48 Roggay wrote: You can't judge balance based on outdated data, not that I encourage any balance discussion. Not judging balance, just the seemingly rampant double standard when Terran has been the most favoured race, representation-wise, regardless of time. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:49 MrCon wrote: For people who are asking, the zerg build is just a fast 2 bases saturation on one then 2 gas, then as soon as you hit saturation you just spam roaches and lings. Then you push to the protoss natural and make him waste forcefields, while keep spamming roaches and speedlings rallied to the P natural. You at least will do energy damage (important), and most of the time will kill a lot, then you can either finish the game right there, or just throw a quick 3rd and 4rt, teching to lair. It is a very smart build in the current metagame where protosses are 3 gate sentries expanding, because you can produce like 10 roaches/minute. Usually you stop producing roaches when you push and only rally speedlings (they arrive a lot sooner than slow roaches). Well, you can if the distances are not too big. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:42 Roggay wrote: It is a fact that zerg players have had trouble getting good tournament results, you can't deny that (Yes I know, FD and Nestea) and with things like 4gate, 2rax etc... a lot of people were frustrated, leading to a lot of QQ. We are all starcraft players, playing zerg will not make you another person (more of a whiner), it is just stupid to think that. I hate whiners, but what I hate most are peoples who whines about whiners (martyrs), and now it seems like there are more of the second type on this forum. You seem to be going all passive-aggressive on me with that last sentence there. Let me clear some things up. I only responded to Ezekyle's post because it was an attempt to show some annoying type of gleeful sarcasm on a completely false basis - the actual content (in this case, QQers) did nothing to motivate my response. In my future responses, all I did was try and argue that the reality was that Zerg players tend to QQ the most. Sure, the reason is probably that their race has the most trouble. That's not the point. I'm not whining about whiners - I'm simply calling out people that blatantly misconstrue reality (in this case, the misconstrued reality is that Toss players somehow whine just as much as Zerg players), and your little speech about how "we're all starcraft players..." is just a big fat strawman in my eyes, because I was making no such accusations. You might notice that following the post where I say that "there's truth behind the stereotype", the argument shifts from denying Zerg QQ to admitting but giving reasons for Zerg QQ. That shift is the point where this became pointless (since if you admit but give reasons for Zerg QQ, that proves the initial point I was trying to make at the very start of the argument), so I see no reason in continuing this. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
I understand zerg players because it's frustrating to watch how forcefields annihilate zerg army or collosus ball kills zerg army w/o lossing 20 supply lol, but when zerg just played really well (Losira in game 1) why would you immediatly start complaining..? | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:49 MrCon wrote: For people who are asking, the zerg build is just a fast 2 bases saturation on one then 2 gas, then as soon as you hit saturation you just spam roaches and lings. Then you push to the protoss natural and make him waste forcefields, while keep spamming roaches and speedlings rallied to the P natural. You at least will do energy damage (important), and most of the time will kill a lot, then you can either finish the game right there, or just throw a quick 3rd and 4rt, teching to lair. It is a very smart build in the current metagame where protosses are 3 gate sentries expanding, because you can produce like 10 roaches/minute. So how you beat it without losing to much economy and failing mid game. Something isn't right that Zerg can produce twice the units and taking a third while toss is barley starting to saturate 2nd. | ||
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provrorsbarn
Sweden766 Posts
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:49 MrCon wrote: For people who are asking, the zerg build is just a fast 2 bases saturation on one then 2 gas, then as soon as you hit saturation you just spam roaches and lings. Then you push to the protoss natural and make him waste forcefields, while keep spamming roaches and speedlings rallied to the P natural. You at least will do energy damage (important), and most of the time will kill a lot, then you can either finish the game right there, or just throw a quick 3rd and 4rt, teching to lair. It is a very smart build in the current metagame where protosses are 3 gate sentries expanding, because you can produce like 10 roaches/minute. Which makes it even more strange to me since you put it that way. From what I've seen ling-roach attack (including all-in variants) has been out for.. ever. (You can look it up in my previous post regarding GSL Season 2 Kyrix v Hongun series) At that time it looked powerful because it was right after the roach range buff. It kind of died down and I assume it's because pros figured out counter. Then of a sudden now it's a "new" build? | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:46 Asvhald wrote: Yeah, 1 season ago it was 3 Protoss 1 Zerg in the Ro4. However, in GSL Jan, it was 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4, 4 Terrans in Code A Ro4. In GSL 3, 2 Terrans 2 Protoss in Ro4 In GSL 2, 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4 In GSL 1, 3 Terrans 1 Zerg in Ro4 So Protoss are "imba" for having superior representation 1 season, and Terran, who got 11 out of 20 (hint: 55%) of the total GSL semifinalists (and only talking about Code S, because Code A is always Terrantopia) are fine, yes? And terran is least played at master and above, protoss most.. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:56 usethis2 wrote: Which makes it even more strange to me since you put it that way. From what I've seen ling-roach attack (including all-in variants) has been out for.. ever. (You can look it up in my previous post regarding GSL Season 2 Kyrix v Hongun series) At that time it looked powerful because it was right after the roach range buff. It kind of died down and I assume it's because pros figured out counter. Then of a sudden now it's a "new" build? For me it's new, because Losira had a plan B, he was not all in. All the previous versions of this build was all-in because if it failed you had no eco and no tech. But Losira sacrifice just his tech not his eco. he took his third quite quickly and had a good mineral saturation on 2 base. I kind of like his build, it's very smart. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:56 usethis2 wrote: Which makes it even more strange to me since you put it that way. From what I've seen ling-roach attack (including all-in variants) has been out for.. ever. (You can look it up in my previous post regarding GSL Season 2 Kyrix v Hongun series) At that time it looked powerful because it was right after the roach range buff. It kind of died down and I assume it's because pros figured out counter. Then of a sudden now it's a "new" build? The reason why it is so powerfull now is that Protoss have been doing a lot of risky (but not known as risky) things to gain an eco advantage. And zergs figured that this was the best way to punish them. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:55 tdt wrote: So how you beat it without losing to much economy and failing mid game. Something isn't right that Zerg can produce twice the units and taking a third while toss is barley starting to saturate 2nd. I don't know, perhaps stay on one base longer, or spam canons, or make zealot/stalkers instead of sentries, or using chrono on gates only (just some ideas, I really don't know). I feel the zergs until now never realized that their 2 base macro and unit spam capabilities with 2 hatches are just enormous. Most of the time they just use those capabilities for pumping more drones and hitting 200/200 very fast, but it's obviously not the way to go. 2 hatches vs 3 gates is like half the production for the 3 gates, even with non cost effective units I feel like zergs don't abuse this feature enough. If you read me in some previous live report threads, I usually "rage" (at least I'm frustrated) at "macro zergs" that don't abuse the mega timing they have against a fast expanding toss. I feel that when every zerg will use that timing, the protoss will learn to defend it but with economic loss compared to the current builds. So the zergs will be able to enter mid and late game on an equal foot (army wise) | ||
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kuroshiro
United Kingdom378 Posts
Hoping for a Losira vs. Nestea finals ^_^ (If only to see the ultimate extreme in artosis hype) | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:56 usethis2 wrote: Which makes it even more strange to me since you put it that way. From what I've seen ling-roach attack (including all-in variants) has been out for.. ever. (You can look it up in my previous post regarding GSL Season 2 Kyrix v Hongun series) At that time it looked powerful because it was right after the roach range buff. It kind of died down and I assume it's because pros figured out counter. Then of a sudden now it's a "new" build? Just watched the kyrix vs hongun serie, it's a failed canon rush and kyrix makes hydras, not the same timing at all. Some zergs are using this, but not as a stable build, because even with 2 satured base, they think attacking and not taking a 3rd is allinish and it has a bad image. But the damage is guaranteed versus the current P builds. Currently rewatching the Losira serie to write the precise timings here. | ||
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