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France12904 Posts
On April 28 2011 21:25 awesomoecalypse wrote:
As a Protoss, I have to say I'm glad the Protoss are losing, since recent Toss dominance in tournaments was the primary reason people called us OP. Glad to see Pros showing that Protoss are very, very beatable if you actually think, the way Losira did, or just plain outplay them the way Nada did.
I'm sure that the HT nerf HELPED a lot in TvP, and I don't know the PvZ match-up.
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On April 28 2011 21:17 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:16 Ezekyle wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 Mios wrote:
how is that possible to beat?
seems like you have to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure or the zerg econ gets way too far ahead Bahahahahahaha. And people say that Zergs are QQers... Moron, he's asking what would be good to do against it, not calling it broken.
"how do you beat this" in strategy forums = what is good against this build?
"how is it possible to beat this build, nothing can work against it" in LR thread = this build is impossible to beat, nothing can work against it.
At least that's how I read it. If I'm wrong, then my apologies.
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On April 28 2011 21:26 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:23 HolyArrow wrote:On April 28 2011 21:19 Roggay wrote:On April 28 2011 21:17 HolyArrow wrote:On April 28 2011 21:16 Ezekyle wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 Mios wrote:
how is that possible to beat?
seems like you have to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure or the zerg econ gets way too far ahead Bahahahahahaha. And people say that Zergs are QQers... Psh. There are only a few people QQing here. Compare this to when a Zerg player loses to a Toss player in any LR thread and there's a pretty big difference. Don't fool yourself. You are fooling yourself too, the amount of zerg QQing here is very low, and it is always the sames, please don't generalize. Me generalize? Hardly. There's truth behind the stereotype of Zerg players QQing the most, just as there is some truth behind any sort of stereotype. Yes and maybe the truth is that zerg had the most trouble at the time, and it generated a lot of QQ. The other races had less reasons to QQ. So now, could people stop with this ridiculous claim that every zerg whines everytime they see one damn comment about it.
The most trouble at the time? What is your definition of "at the time"? It's been going on for as long as I can remember, ever since FD won the first GSL. Like I said, there's a reason the stereotype exists, and it's not just because of the last GSL season.
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On April 28 2011 21:26 Mios wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:22 syllogism wrote:On April 28 2011 21:18 dubRa wrote:On April 28 2011 21:15 syllogism wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 dubRa wrote:
Every zerg needs to watch this game They've been doing this build for weeks or a month now at least Ups sorry. But then why doesn't it work for others then Losira? It's a good build, but Alicia was slightly too greedy and the move out in game 1 was just terrible greedy? alicias econ was behind and so was his army. 3 gate expand is supposed to be completely safe. When the zerg can kill you with an army twice the size of yours while getting a 3rd base without previously damaging you in any way, something is wrong. i see protoss being doomed to 1 base builds on maps where your natural is hard to wall off. really wish i had a pass so i could watch those vods again.
Supposed to be completely safe? That's funny. Anyway, in game 1 he took a huge risk moving out and had to waste a lot of force fields and didn't have cannon/quick immortal ready. In game 2 he went blind stargate and phoenix first
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On April 28 2011 21:28 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:26 rbx270j wrote:On April 28 2011 21:20 pdd wrote:
Artosis said rushing to DT is the way to counter this build. But how do you scout the build though? IMO it's not really about that. If you make the nexus with the intent to cancel (an astute Zerg would attack around when it finishes) and make your way back up your ramp, you can FF it when you need to, and warp in DTs for pressure. The key is to not be so greedy with your sentry count. your DTs will be too late in all likelihood if you have 5-7 Sentries, but if you get 3 early and save what gas you can, some well-executed DTs can make the difference. Obviously, at that point, you need to do real damage with them in order to expand, otherwise your economy falls way too far behind. forget about dts, losira had an evolution chamber, he could make spores. no way in hell that works, he was safe against everything.
It's to ward off the attack, not to kill the zerg I guess 
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On April 28 2011 21:25 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:18 zocktol wrote:On April 28 2011 21:16 Ezekyle wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 Mios wrote:
how is that possible to beat?
seems like you have to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure or the zerg econ gets way too far ahead Bahahahahahaha. And people say that Zergs are QQers... Yeah he was definitly QQing and not asking for advic, at least it seems to me to be that way. I am wondering myself, i do not think, that a DTrush is the right answer to that build. Anybody got any idea how to stop this early aggression, without falling behind in economy? This type of aggression has been a loooooooooooooooooong while. GSL Open season 2 RO64 - HoneUnPrime v KyrixZenith. If anyone has a premium ticket then go watch that game. It's literally identical and I thought I was having a flashback (including 3rd behind the attack). So it's an over-6-month-old build. (Though regrettably at that time Artosis labeled Kyrix as a "no-depth all-in'er") Seriously this is nothing new. I'm just astound that Alicia, my protoss hero along with San, looked so helpless in these games. Edit: Link to the aforementioned series below. (First game might be free for non-subscribers. The second game was an accelerated version of it without hydras, just like Losira v Alicia) http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1170
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On April 28 2011 21:17 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:16 MrCon wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 Mios wrote:
how is that possible to beat?
seems like you have to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure or the zerg econ gets way too far ahead This is a direct counter to one gate stargate expand, this is just a risky build imo. No it works really well against the 3gate sentry expand.
No to what ? :p (the risky build was about the one gate stargate, not the Z build) And yes it works against 3 gates expand too, but it's harder and less an autowin.
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MC mentioned that 3gate expand build isn't a good build.
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On April 28 2011 21:27 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:23 Fenrisulf wrote:Things are looking good for Nestea to win another GSL. Sad about Alicia though  , Killer pretty much only chance for protoss now, and I don't think hes good enough to win against TOP/Nada. Funny how zergs praise this roach speedling push as ingenious but 6 gate pushes are all-in. 2 pushes with low tier units, momentarily cutting workers after getting on 2 base, meant to punish/kill other FE builds. Not saying anything about balance, but funny double standards... What? Cutting workers after 2 base? He was droning super greedy until about 6:30 and then started roach/ling production. And just before attack he throws 3rd hatch, so how is that all-in?
Who said it was? I don't consider it an all-in. And he does stop producing workers after the initial heavy droning. Just like you stop making probes after chronoing a bunch out for the 6 gate sentry push. I think neither build is all-in. The point I was making was that theres hundreds of pages of QQ about protoss players only knowing how to all-in when they 6 gate, but the same people will be saying how ingenious LosirA is for coming up with this zerg version of the push.
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On April 28 2011 21:29 syllogism wrote:
e: quote is not edit
Sorry.. mistake
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On April 28 2011 21:28 loveeholicce wrote:
LOL what's going on in GSL? Protoss are dominating everywhere but getting completely owned in GSL. I wonder what the statistics are O_o. Looks like another season of gomTvT lol.
Protoss are not dominating everywhere.
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On April 28 2011 21:31 usethis2 wrote:Sorry.. mistake
I did the same thing, quoted myself instead of editing. I wasn't referring to your post, which I didn't even notice first
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On April 28 2011 21:26 Orpheusz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:On April 28 2011 21:20 babysimba wrote:
The reason why Alicia lost to that aggression so easily is because he did not build a wall in front of his natural. It might be a mindfk maneuver (cancel nexus 4wg), but losira just went ahead with the aggression anyway. No it was because he went early stargate. 3gate sentry expand into stargate has massive trouble with roach/ling attacks, especially if you don't scout it and go phoenix (as Alicia did). Not surprisingly really, that build just has a serious lack of units to do actual DPS - until the voids/stalkers are online. He went into robo in the first game which I think was cross position terminus and still lost pretty handily.
He lost the first game because he tried to snipe Losira's 3rd base at the cost of his whole army.
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Can you guys please stop the balance talk?
In game 1, both players played well. Alicia's one mistake was stepping too far into Losira's territory and losing his army. The game went downhill from there.
In game 2, Losira's build just countered Alicia's. There's not much else to say about it.
What can be taken away from the series is that Alicia has murderous force fields, and that Losira showed overall strong play. No imbalance or "vastly outclassing" the opponent in that series.
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Protoss have never been dominant in SC2. It's a complete myth. Terran has been the race getting the most results since forever.
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On April 28 2011 21:31 Fenrisulf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:27 Alpina wrote:On April 28 2011 21:23 Fenrisulf wrote:Things are looking good for Nestea to win another GSL. Sad about Alicia though , Killer pretty much only chance for protoss now, and I don't think hes good enough to win against TOP/Nada. Funny how zergs praise this roach speedling push as ingenious but 6 gate pushes are all-in. 2 pushes with low tier units, momentarily cutting workers after getting on 2 base, meant to punish/kill other FE builds. Not saying anything about balance, but funny double standards... What? Cutting workers after 2 base? He was droning super greedy until about 6:30 and then started roach/ling production. And just before attack he throws 3rd hatch, so how is that all-in? Who said it was? I don't consider it an all-in. And he does stop producing workers after the initial heavy droning. Just like you stop making probes after chronoing a bunch out for the 6 gate sentry push. I think neither build is all-in. The point I was making was that theres hundreds of pages of QQ about protoss players only knowing how to all-in when they 6 gate, but the same people will be saying how ingenious LosirA is for coming up with this zerg version of the push.
The risk that Zerg takes is a lot more than toss. Make 1 wrong move and all your units are split up by FFs and dead and you have little to fall back on. This makes it a lot more impressive when Zerg does it. A well executed 6 gate normally only gets truly crushed when the Zerg pre-empts it miles away or if P over-extends himself. P can always decide to stop attacking and pull back and Zerg can't do much to punish P for doing the 6 gate.
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Nestea will beat FD then July, while NaDa beats TOP but loses to Clide in Ro4, then it will be Clide vs Nestea or Losira with a Zerg winning GSL again
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On April 28 2011 21:33 realstarcrafter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:26 Orpheusz wrote:On April 28 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:On April 28 2011 21:20 babysimba wrote:
The reason why Alicia lost to that aggression so easily is because he did not build a wall in front of his natural. It might be a mindfk maneuver (cancel nexus 4wg), but losira just went ahead with the aggression anyway. No it was because he went early stargate. 3gate sentry expand into stargate has massive trouble with roach/ling attacks, especially if you don't scout it and go phoenix (as Alicia did). Not surprisingly really, that build just has a serious lack of units to do actual DPS - until the voids/stalkers are online. He went into robo in the first game which I think was cross position terminus and still lost pretty handily. He lost the first game because he tried to snipe Losira's 3rd base at the cost of his whole army.
Well he was already behind then because of that bad pushout with the sentries, but yeah that sealed the deal.
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On April 28 2011 21:28 Clog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:23 Gondlem wrote:
Alicia's build definitely was not risky. Three gate sentry expand is the safest opening you can do against zerg, assuming that we all acknowledge that one-basing isn't viable. It's got a weak point that Losira's build was designed to exploit. Sentries don't actually do much damage, the 3 gate sentry expand is a little abusive in expanding while getting units that are going to be better later (more energy -> more forcefields) than they are right after being warped in. That's my opinion anyway. I feel like you need to have something that does reasonable damage, be it more cannons, or more stalkers / zealots.
I think if it's just zealot/stalker vs speedling/roach, the Zerg will be ahead because they'll simply outproduce and swarm. Zergling surrounds do a lot of damage. I'm just theorycrafting though.
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EPT
