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On April 28 2011 21:21 LightWireEX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:20 pdd wrote:
Artosis said rushing to DT is the way to counter this build. But how do you scout the build though? When you get hallucinate, scout with your phoenix and see if the Zerg is still on hatchery tech when his 2nd base is saturated. That should be a very good tell.
Hmm.. I'm not sure myself as my game was a bit choppy, but based on watching the games it seems like the attack will come earlier than the Twilight Council will finish. I'm not sure though, but I think for sure the Dark Shrine won't be up in time. Does it mean you have to forego some gates?
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On April 28 2011 21:19 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:17 HolyArrow wrote:On April 28 2011 21:16 Ezekyle wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 Mios wrote:
how is that possible to beat?
seems like you have to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure or the zerg econ gets way too far ahead Bahahahahahaha. And people say that Zergs are QQers... Psh. There are only a few people QQing here. Compare this to when a Zerg player loses to a Toss player in any LR thread and there's a pretty big difference. Don't fool yourself. You are fooling yourself too, the amount of zerg QQing here is very low, and it is always the sames, please don't generalize.
It's very low cause there was only one zerg today and he went 2-0, use your brain.
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On April 28 2011 21:24 Orpheusz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:21 LightWireEX wrote:On April 28 2011 21:20 pdd wrote:
Artosis said rushing to DT is the way to counter this build. But how do you scout the build though? When you get hallucinate, scout with your phoenix and see if the Zerg is still on hatchery tech when his 2nd base is saturated. That should be a very good tell. I dunno, a straight up dt rush is cheesy and if you wait until hallu you can't switch to dt tech in time.
Hmm....what about a 3gate-->twilight expand then? If you scout tier 1 tech from Zerg throw down Dark Shrine? I don't play Toss so I'm not sure, just throwing out ideas.
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i was eating and i missed the games, alot of ppl talk here about this scary zerg rush thats not an allin... explain?:p what is it
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On April 28 2011 21:18 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:16 Ezekyle wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 Mios wrote:
how is that possible to beat?
seems like you have to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure or the zerg econ gets way too far ahead Bahahahahahaha. And people say that Zergs are QQers... Yeah he was definitly QQing and not asking for advic, at least it seems to me to be that way. I am wondering myself, i do not think, that a DTrush is the right answer to that build. Anybody got any idea how to stop this early aggression, without falling behind in economy?
This type of aggression has been a loooooooooooooooooong while. GSL Open season 2 RO64 - HoneUnPrime v KyrixZenix. If anyone has a premium ticket then go watch that game. It's literally identical and I thought I was having a flashback (including 3rd behind the attack). So it's an over-6-month-old build. (Though regrettably at that time Artosis labeled Kyrix as a "no-depth all-in'er")
Seriously this is nothing new. I'm just astound that Alicia, my protoss hero along with San, looked so helpless in these games.
Edit: Link to the aforementioned series below. (First game might be free for non-subscribers. The second game was an accelerated version of it without hydras, just like Losira v Alicia)
http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1170
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As a Protoss, I have to say I'm glad the Protoss are losing, since recent Toss dominance in tournaments was the primary reason people called us OP. Glad to see Pros showing that Protoss are very, very beatable if you actually think, the way Losira did, or just plain outplay them the way Nada did.
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So does anyone know a Replay where i can steal this build from exactly?
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On April 28 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:20 babysimba wrote:
The reason why Alicia lost to that aggression so easily is because he did not build a wall in front of his natural. It might be a mindfk maneuver (cancel nexus 4wg), but losira just went ahead with the aggression anyway. No it was because he went early stargate. 3gate sentry expand into stargate has massive trouble with roach/ling attacks, especially if you don't scout it and go phoenix (as Alicia did). Not surprisingly really, that build just has a serious lack of units to do actual DPS - until the voids/stalkers are online.
He went into robo in the first game which I think was cross position terminus and still lost pretty handily.
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That series felt more like Alicia being taken by surprise, rather than Losira really outplaying him, TBH. Kind of like how MC lost to Polt, but not as extreme.
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On April 28 2011 21:23 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:19 Roggay wrote:On April 28 2011 21:17 HolyArrow wrote:On April 28 2011 21:16 Ezekyle wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 Mios wrote:
how is that possible to beat?
seems like you have to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure or the zerg econ gets way too far ahead Bahahahahahaha. And people say that Zergs are QQers... Psh. There are only a few people QQing here. Compare this to when a Zerg player loses to a Toss player in any LR thread and there's a pretty big difference. Don't fool yourself. You are fooling yourself too, the amount of zerg QQing here is very low, and it is always the sames, please don't generalize. Me generalize? Hardly. There's truth behind the stereotype of Zerg players QQing the most, just as there is some truth behind any sort of stereotype.
Yes and maybe the truth is that zerg had the most trouble at the time, and it generated a lot of QQ. The other races had less reasons to QQ. So now, could people stop with this ridiculous claim that every zerg whines everytime they see one damn comment about it.
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On April 28 2011 21:25 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:23 Gondlem wrote:
Alicia's build definitely was not risky. Three gate sentry expand is the safest opening you can do against zerg, assuming that we all acknowledge that one-basing isn't viable. The 3gate part wasn't risky, no. The blind followup of stargate-phoenix was very, very risky.
people keep saying that this build is so good against 3-gate expand followed by stargate, or that Alicia FF could have been better....both true for the second game
but in that first game...those FF were pretty perfect. basically I think the only way to stop this is to have scouted it somehow and get 2 cannons up before the push hits.
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On April 28 2011 21:22 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:18 dubRa wrote:On April 28 2011 21:15 syllogism wrote:On April 28 2011 21:14 dubRa wrote:
Every zerg needs to watch this game They've been doing this build for weeks or a month now at least Ups sorry. But then why doesn't it work for others then Losira? It's a good build, but Alicia was slightly too greedy and the move out in game 1 was just terrible
greedy? alicias econ was behind and so was his army. 3 gate expand is supposed to be completely safe. When the zerg can kill you with an army twice the size of yours while getting a 3rd base without previously damaging you in any way, something is wrong.
i see protoss being doomed to 1 base builds on maps where your natural is hard to wall off. really wish i had a pass so i could watch those vods again.
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On April 28 2011 21:20 pdd wrote:
Artosis said rushing to DT is the way to counter this build. But how do you scout the build though?
IMO it's not really about that. If you make the nexus with the intent to cancel (an astute Zerg would attack around when it finishes) and make your way back up your ramp, you can FF it when you need to, and warp in DTs for pressure. The key is to not be so greedy with your sentry count. your DTs will be too late in all likelihood if you have 5-7 Sentries, but if you get 3 early and save what gas you can, some well-executed DTs can make the difference. Obviously, at that point, you need to do real damage with them in order to expand, otherwise your economy falls way too far behind.
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Oh wow, got stuck with work and so couldn't watch it live.
Checked the GOM site and saw the VODs for the first 3 matches are up already!!!
Thank you Thank you GOM :-D
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On April 28 2011 21:23 Fenrisulf wrote:Things are looking good for Nestea to win another GSL. Sad about Alicia though  , Killer pretty much only chance for protoss now, and I don't think hes good enough to win against TOP/Nada. Funny how zergs praise this roach speedling push as ingenious but 6 gate pushes are all-in. 2 pushes with low tier units, momentarily cutting workers after getting on 2 base, meant to punish/kill other FE builds. Not saying anything about balance, but funny double standards...
What? Cutting workers after 2 base? He was droning super greedy until about 6:30 and then started roach/ling production. And just before attack he throws 3rd hatch, so how is that all-in?
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On April 28 2011 21:26 rbx270j wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:20 pdd wrote:
Artosis said rushing to DT is the way to counter this build. But how do you scout the build though? IMO it's not really about that. If you make the nexus with the intent to cancel (an astute Zerg would attack around when it finishes) and make your way back up your ramp, you can FF it when you need to, and warp in DTs for pressure. The key is to not be so greedy with your sentry count. your DTs will be too late in all likelihood if you have 5-7 Sentries, but if you get 3 early and save what gas you can, some well-executed DTs can make the difference. Obviously, at that point, you need to do real damage with them in order to expand, otherwise your economy falls way too far behind.
forget about dts, losira had an evolution chamber, he could make spores.
no way in hell that works, he was safe against everything.
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LOL what's going on in GSL? Protoss are dominating everywhere but getting completely owned in GSL. I wonder what the statistics are O_o. Looks like another season of gomTvT lol.
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On April 28 2011 21:26 Fenrisulf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:25 Yaotzin wrote:On April 28 2011 21:23 Gondlem wrote:
Alicia's build definitely was not risky. Three gate sentry expand is the safest opening you can do against zerg, assuming that we all acknowledge that one-basing isn't viable. The 3gate part wasn't risky, no. The blind followup of stargate-phoenix was very, very risky. people keep saying that this build is so good against 3-gate expand followed by stargate, or that Alicia FF could have been better....both true for the second game but in that first game...those FF were pretty perfect. basically I think the only way to stop this is to have scouted it somehow and get 2 cannons up before the push hits.
Yes his cannon was really late in the first game, and he didn't simcity. He also screwed himself by making only one pylon which Losira took out and nullified his cannon. Cannons are totally awesome when you can FF the roaches & lings away from them. Really important to get them up & keep them alive/powered.
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On April 28 2011 21:23 Gondlem wrote:
Alicia's build definitely was not risky. Three gate sentry expand is the safest opening you can do against zerg, assuming that we all acknowledge that one-basing isn't viable.
It's got a weak point that Losira's build was designed to exploit. Sentries don't actually do much damage, the 3 gate sentry expand is a little abusive in expanding while getting units that are going to be better later (more energy -> more forcefields) than they are right after being warped in.
That's my opinion anyway. I feel like you need to have something that does reasonable damage, be it more cannons, or more stalkers / zealots.
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EPT
