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On April 28 2011 22:01 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:56 usethis2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:49 MrCon wrote:
For people who are asking, the zerg build is just a fast 2 bases saturation on one then 2 gas, then as soon as you hit saturation you just spam roaches and lings. Then you push to the protoss natural and make him waste forcefields, while keep spamming roaches and speedlings rallied to the P natural.
You at least will do energy damage (important), and most of the time will kill a lot, then you can either finish the game right there, or just throw a quick 3rd and 4rt, teching to lair.
It is a very smart build in the current metagame where protosses are 3 gate sentries expanding, because you can produce like 10 roaches/minute. Which makes it even more strange to me since you put it that way. From what I've seen ling-roach attack (including all-in variants) has been out for.. ever. (You can look it up in my previous post regarding GSL Season 2 Kyrix v Hongun series) At that time it looked powerful because it was right after the roach range buff. It kind of died down and I assume it's because pros figured out counter. Then of a sudden now it's a "new" build? For me it's new, because Losira had a plan B, he was not all in. All the previous version of this build was all-in because if it failed you had no eco and no tech. But Losira sacrifice just his tech not his eco. he took his third quite quickly and had a good mineral saturation on 2 base. I kind of like his build, it's very smart.
Well, that's what exactly Zergs (Kyrix at least) did at that time. Expanding behind the tier-1 ling-roach attack. Check that series out. Especially the game #2. It's exactly the same build v. same build of what we saw today (Losira v Alicia). Hongun - 3 gate sentry expo, Kyrix - 2 hatch ling-roach with a 3rd going up. So for me the two games are just about identical, except that one was played 6 months ago.
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On April 28 2011 22:07 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:01 Samhax wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 usethis2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:49 MrCon wrote:
For people who are asking, the zerg build is just a fast 2 bases saturation on one then 2 gas, then as soon as you hit saturation you just spam roaches and lings. Then you push to the protoss natural and make him waste forcefields, while keep spamming roaches and speedlings rallied to the P natural.
You at least will do energy damage (important), and most of the time will kill a lot, then you can either finish the game right there, or just throw a quick 3rd and 4rt, teching to lair.
It is a very smart build in the current metagame where protosses are 3 gate sentries expanding, because you can produce like 10 roaches/minute. Which makes it even more strange to me since you put it that way. From what I've seen ling-roach attack (including all-in variants) has been out for.. ever. (You can look it up in my previous post regarding GSL Season 2 Kyrix v Hongun series) At that time it looked powerful because it was right after the roach range buff. It kind of died down and I assume it's because pros figured out counter. Then of a sudden now it's a "new" build? For me it's new, because Losira had a plan B, he was not all in. All the previous version of this build was all-in because if it failed you had no eco and no tech. But Losira sacrifice just his tech not his eco. he took his third quite quickly and had a good mineral saturation on 2 base. I kind of like his build, it's very smart. Well, that's what exactly Zergs (Kyrix at least) did at that time. Expanding behind the tier-1 ling-roach attack. Check that series out. Especially the game #2. It's exactly the same build v. same build of what we saw today (Losira v Alicia). Hongun - 3 gate expo, Kyrix - 2 hatch ling-roach with a 3rd going up.
I'm gonna check it. But if Kyrix did it, he was the only one, i didn't remember any other zerg doing this build without being all-in (i.e without a third and low eco).
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So the build (is standard) :
- pool gas expo
- 2 queens
- spam drones, start speedling upgrade
- roach warren at 5:30
- the roach warren finishes at about 6:30 with speed nearly done, from here make a round of roaches (Losira has enough larvas and money to starts 8 roaches)
- the protoss starts his nexus at about 6:00, he currently has 2 zealots and 7 sentries
- spam lings and only lings after the round of roaches (no more drone after the first roach is started !)
- attack and keep spamming lings rallied in front of the P expo.
- from here either finish the P (game 2) or redrone, start a 3rd, a lair, an evo a 4th, get burrow, upgrades (game 1)
I feel Losira could have ended game 1 had he kept spamming lings, as Alicia only had energy-less sentries and 3 stalkers left.
edit : don't forget first game of each match is free to watch, and now in HD (I remember in open seasons, the free sets were not in HD for non paying members)
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On April 28 2011 21:44 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 21:41 Alpina wrote:
Lol so first time toss lost and now every toss player gonna talk about how toss isn't strong at all.. :D First time? I seem to recall MC, Genius, and San already making their exits, along with there being a grand total of one toss player left in Code A, so, no, I wouldn't use the words "first time" here.
They all lost to Terrans, it doesn't really say anything about PvZ which has always been the matchup with the most issues. MC played one PvZ and won it, San didn't play any and Genius played one (vs Losira) and won it.
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On April 28 2011 22:07 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:01 Samhax wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 usethis2 wrote:On April 28 2011 21:49 MrCon wrote:
For people who are asking, the zerg build is just a fast 2 bases saturation on one then 2 gas, then as soon as you hit saturation you just spam roaches and lings. Then you push to the protoss natural and make him waste forcefields, while keep spamming roaches and speedlings rallied to the P natural.
You at least will do energy damage (important), and most of the time will kill a lot, then you can either finish the game right there, or just throw a quick 3rd and 4rt, teching to lair.
It is a very smart build in the current metagame where protosses are 3 gate sentries expanding, because you can produce like 10 roaches/minute. Which makes it even more strange to me since you put it that way. From what I've seen ling-roach attack (including all-in variants) has been out for.. ever. (You can look it up in my previous post regarding GSL Season 2 Kyrix v Hongun series) At that time it looked powerful because it was right after the roach range buff. It kind of died down and I assume it's because pros figured out counter. Then of a sudden now it's a "new" build? For me it's new, because Losira had a plan B, he was not all in. All the previous version of this build was all-in because if it failed you had no eco and no tech. But Losira sacrifice just his tech not his eco. he took his third quite quickly and had a good mineral saturation on 2 base. I kind of like his build, it's very smart. Well, that's what exactly Zergs (Kyrix at least) did at that time. Expanding behind the tier-1 ling-roach attack. Check that series out. Especially the game #2. It's exactly the same build v. same build of what we saw today (Losira v Alicia). Hongun - 3 gate sentry expo, Kyrix - 2 hatch ling-roach with a 3rd going up. So for me the two games are just about identical, except that one was played 6 months ago.
Kyrix actually went for a lair after expansion (before Roach Warren was up) in Game 2 and I think, HongUn could have held if he didn't mess up by walking his 4 stalkers into speedlings.
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The point of this build is the very fast roach warren that allows a very fast aggression.
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I know that this is not the purpose of a LR thread but just wanted to make 1 statement regarding a few comments already allowed regarding balance.
I get really depressed as a Toss player that in the brief period of "dominance" we had that everyone QQ'ed so hard and have the nerf hammers thrown our way accordingly when you see how dynamic the game is.
Overall
PvT is 26% toss win ratio this season
PvZ is 43%
TvZ is exactly 50%
Now I don't think toss needs a buff etc.. or think there is imbalance but it really gets to me that both T and Z races QQ so hard about not totally dominating (T players especially), when you look at the stats Terran have probably had it best of anyone yet when Toss starts to get the upper hand due to current metagame for a brief period all you hear is QQ
sorry had to get it off my chest
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On April 28 2011 22:04 kuroshiro wrote:
Daaaamn. I didn't expect that result when I got back from lunch :p Sorry I missed it. Alicia is sick good (and I play toss) but I'm actually quite happy Losira won.
Hoping for a Losira vs. Nestea finals ^_^ (If only to see the ultimate extreme in artosis hype)
We cant see a Losira vs Nestea finals. We might see a Losira vs Nestea semifinals though. With July, Nestea, Fruitdealer and Losira the chance of a ZvZ in the semi finals and a Z in the finals is pretty big.
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On April 28 2011 22:27 spacemonkeyy wrote:
I know that this is not the purpose of a LR thread but just wanted to make 1 statement regarding a few comments already allowed regarding balance.
I get really depressed as a Toss player that in the brief period of "dominance" we had that everyone QQ'ed so hard and have the nerf hammers thrown our way accordingly when you see how dynamic the game is.
Overall
PvT is 26% toss win ratio this season
PvZ is 43%
TvZ is exactly 50%
Now I don't think toss needs a buff etc.. or think there is imbalance but it really gets to me that both T and Z races QQ so hard about not totally dominating (T players especially), when you look at the stats Terran have probably had it best of anyone yet when Toss starts to get the upper hand due to current metagame for a brief period all you hear is QQ
sorry had to get it off my chest
Honestly, you have made a post regarding the metagame before and between that and this, it is evident that you don't have any idea what it is. Nor do you seem to be a part of said metagame. First, people overreacted to the results, yes, but are you not doing the same here? "OH LOOK, OBVIOUS SLUMP."
There is a reason balance talk doesn't belong in this thread. Most of it relies heavily the the outcome of say, 10 games, to make its point.
Also, GOGOGO IMLOSIRA. Guy never loses!
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did you even read his post dude? that wasnt a balance complaint
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United Arab Emirates4 Posts
Terran is ahead balance-wise, has been since release.. Don't see how anyone could debate otherwise.
Protoss managed to claim second for a short while by exploring pretty much everything in their arsenal.
However it seems zerg has stopped playing passive and maxing out on roaches again demoting protoss to the weakest race -_-
PvZ heavily favors Z as they make all the calls if they are active, as we have seen time and time again in recent matches.
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people should talk less about balance and focus on improving my head hurts everytime i read LR threads
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Losiraaaa! I always knew he could do it! Gogogo up to the finals at least! Sucks I couldn't make it to see his games live due to the conference  But I'll track his progress live from now on
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On April 28 2011 22:17 MrCon wrote:
So the build (is standard) :
- pool gas expo
- 2 queens
- spam drones, start speedling upgrade
- roach warren at 5:30
- the roach warren finishes at about 6:30 with speed nearly done, from here make a round of roaches (Losira has enough larvas and money to starts 8 roaches)
- the protoss starts his nexus at about 6:00, he currently has 2 zealots and 7 sentries
- spam lings and only lings after the round of roaches (no more drone after the first roach is started !)
- attack and keep spamming lings rallied in front of the P expo.
- from here either finish the P (game 2) or redrone, start a 3rd, a lair, an evo a 4th, get burrow, upgrades (game 1)
I feel Losira could have ended game 1 had he kept spamming lings, as Alicia only had energy-less sentries and 3 stalkers left.
I have done testing and if you pull your drones after the inital 100gas and put them back in when your second queen is about halfway done you end up with just enough gas for 8 roaches and soon after enough larvae for speedlings
I arrive at his base with 14 lings and 8 roaches at about 7.30-7.45
Edit: 9 Roaches and 20lings at 7.45
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On April 28 2011 22:53 Bastilol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:17 MrCon wrote:
So the build (is standard) :
- pool gas expo
- 2 queens
- spam drones, start speedling upgrade
- roach warren at 5:30
- the roach warren finishes at about 6:30 with speed nearly done, from here make a round of roaches (Losira has enough larvas and money to starts 8 roaches)
- the protoss starts his nexus at about 6:00, he currently has 2 zealots and 7 sentries
- spam lings and only lings after the round of roaches (no more drone after the first roach is started !)
- attack and keep spamming lings rallied in front of the P expo.
- from here either finish the P (game 2) or redrone, start a 3rd, a lair, an evo a 4th, get burrow, upgrades (game 1)
I feel Losira could have ended game 1 had he kept spamming lings, as Alicia only had energy-less sentries and 3 stalkers left.
I have done testing and if you pull your drones after the inital 100gas and put them back in when your second queen is about halfway done you end up with just enough gas for 8 roaches and soon after enough larvae for speedlings I arrive at his base with 14 lings and 8 roaches at about 7.30-7.45
yeah I just copied what I saw with rough timings and no optimisation, just to give an idea. It's very standard, the only deviation is a fast warren and the heavy pressure. (and all larvas to fighting units after warren is done)
Currently, the usual pressure timing is often after lair, burrow and claws. Sometimes even lair and ventral sacs. And that timing, even it it hits like 2 minutes later, sometimes works, which show how that earlier push can be deadly.
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On April 28 2011 22:30 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:04 kuroshiro wrote:
Daaaamn. I didn't expect that result when I got back from lunch :p Sorry I missed it. Alicia is sick good (and I play toss) but I'm actually quite happy Losira won.
Hoping for a Losira vs. Nestea finals ^_^ (If only to see the ultimate extreme in artosis hype) We cant see a Losira vs Nestea finals. We might see a Losira vs Nestea semifinals though. With July, Nestea, Fruitdealer and Losira the chance of a ZvZ in the semi finals and a Z in the finals is pretty big.
They're all on the same side of the bracket? That's a shame, though I guess it won't be too bad not to have a ZvZ final (having said that Nestea ZvZ games are never that bad).
It's a bit annoying that there's no bracket on the GOMTV website. Am I being blind?
Brackets aside then, I'm looking for Clide vs. Losira/FD/Nestea finals, and Clide to finally take the throne 
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On April 28 2011 22:33 Klamity wrote:
Honestly, you have made a post regarding the metagame before and between that and this, it is evident that you don't have any idea what it is. Nor do you seem to be a part of said metagame. First, people overreacted to the results, yes, but are you not doing the same here? "OH LOOK, OBVIOUS SLUMP."
There is a reason balance talk doesn't belong in this thread. Most of it relies heavily the the outcome of say, 10 games, to make its point.
Also, GOGOGO IMLOSIRA. Guy never loses!
Of course I know what metagame means, it's the strategy based on exploiting current play styles and findings weaknesses. For example there was a time where terran used to go all in with 2 rax marines and scvs upon scouting close by zerg fast expansions typically 15 hatch.
Why get your knickers in a knot, its fair to say one race is further ahead in the metagame than another in such a way that a good counter to that strategy has not yet been developed and is exploiting their more well known strategys.
P.s I said I think its quite balanced, just think you zergs/terrans should chill a little bit observe current TRENDS. You obviously been listening to idra so much that you just automatically assume what he says is correct. Just making observations, not definitive journal articles.
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LosirA is amazing, I said in the beggining that he was gonna be in the finals, and I still believe it. Hype it for a nestea vs losira midfinals where losira wins by 1 game, hell yes
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Why are the Losira vs Alicia games recommended? Because a Zerg won?
Granted, I thought the way Alicia held off the rush with those perfect forcefields pretty entertaining, but both games were extremely one-sided and were just Losira facerolling Alicia with a build he couldn't handle.
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EPT
