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Arguing and whining in this thread will be met with the hammer. Please enjoy the games and keep this thread on track! |
On April 25 2011 06:21 mdma-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:10 Blasphemi wrote:On April 25 2011 06:02 Gaius Baltar wrote:
A lot of people have been talking about how SC1 progamers, not WC3 progamers, are the ones succeeding at SC2.
Now let's take a look at this here TSL3. Korean SC1 players, European and NA SC1 players, and European WC3 players all entered. All that remains are four European WC3 players. Honestly, I think their macro has caught up, and perhaps their micro and creativity is starting to shine through.
I'm not saying they're dominant, just that they've truly arrived and are here to stay. Thoughts? The biggest tournaments GSL, Assembly, Dreamhack, MLG are still almost exclusively dominated by BW players. People have no sense of perspective, this is just one online tournament. The only WC3 player to really prove anything yet at the top level are Naniwa and maybe Moon. I still think that in order to really prove you're at the top level you need to go to Korea and make something happen in the GSL. Like in all sports anyone can beat anyone on their day and especially when players play as many games as they do in SC2, but consistancy and winning major tournaments are what really seperate the best from the rest, which is why MC is so clearly the best player playing the game right now. ??? Dreamhack last year, IEM Europe, UGC, Gadget Show, Gathering, MLG Dallas (top 3 Warcraft players) Dreamhack this year had one WC3 player invite (Sjow) and u can hardly say the invites were skill based (Tlo, Huk...). GSL is a really really dumb example to compare Wc3 vs BW cos there are only very few korean Wc3 player playing Sc2. (essentially Moon, Lyn, Soccer and Check are the only one who switched who were somehow notable in Warcraft) Iem World finals had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. Copenhagen Games had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. You also have to note that the difference between BW and SC2 is much smaller than the diffenrence between Warcraft and BW and therefore the players needed a little bit more time to get used to SC2.Which is why I think we had much more BW players in the tournaments shortly after the game was published. Nowadays I dont think there is any difference between BW and WC3 players. All of them are playing the same game... yeah WC3 players won fair share of tournaments but i believe BW players won way more than that
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On April 25 2011 06:19 MadVillain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:15 Absentia wrote:On April 25 2011 06:10 MadVillain wrote:
Attacking units Toss can viably and offensively use against terran:
colossus 9 range
zealots w/charge
stalkers w/blink
sentries w/forcefields
void rays
dark templars, especially late game
high templars, you saw the series
dont see many immortals
For Terran against Toss:
marines w/stim
marauders w/stim + slow
ghosts
vikings (doesn't really count since they're useless if collosus aren't there)
mech is very risky and is incredibly slow, besides thors blow and tanks vs blink stalkers? lol
so 2 out of 3 tier 3 units that toss can build and none for terran
just seems like toss has way more options, especially late game In that second game in particular, Boxer could've easily done a couple of sacrificial drops and began some kind of transition into YC Battlecruisers/Banshees/Ravens. There are plenty of Master level players who are advocating the use of these three units yet we still see Terrans continuing to solely produce a mid game army at 20 minutes+. What's the point of sitting on 3k minerals/gas and not spending any of it? Well if we use this last series as an example..., once the players establish their economy it becomes a back and forth dance waiting for one to commit etc and this all takes place at 200/200 so a transition would have to come before that because if you lose your army you can't wait for BC's or thors etc... maybe once max is reached just build on the tech structures and production? i dunno
Yeah that's why I mentioned suicide drops rather than a large army exchange.
It's the same idea as throwing SCVs away to free up supply. With combat units however, the sacrifice provides the opportunity to transition into a stronger unit comp as well as some economic damage.
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Stop this stupid EU>KR/NA talk.
Its just a moment. Next week there are other heros.
Players nationality doesn't matter.
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What is the point of this wc3>bw or bw>wc3 discussion? They are all starcraft 2 players now, their past gaming history doesn't matter at all.
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On April 25 2011 06:14 LineEmUp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:11 ZeraToss wrote:On April 25 2011 06:10 TicketoHELL wrote:
people should really stop stuff saying like "Eu is best" its just one tournament you cant base your argument on one tournament thats not even offline but online i know all the people in europe want to brag their superiority in TSL but you cant just say theyre better based on one tourney they are just rooting for europe, where they live . They all know korea is best.... HAHA yeah right buddy. Wait till more European players start showing up for the GSL. I live in Canada and i say Europe is the best. Want more proof?? Look at the ladder rankings.
lmao
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Pretty good games. I was really impressed by Cruncher. (I have to admit that I either missed his other TSL games or have forgotten how they went.)
I want to see BoxeR do better, but it's hard to tell if he ever will. He shows flashes of brilliance but a lot of times there is just one big mistake that gives up the game. On the other hand, other people like Nada and July are been getting better and better every time I see them play.
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On April 25 2011 06:23 Footler wrote:
Guess I'll root for Kas? Because he's from the Ukraine and the Ukraine is home to White-Ra. Go Whit.... Kas!
Don't root for Kas because he's from Ukraine, root for him because he's a BEAST. :D
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On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol.
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On April 25 2011 06:25 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:21 mdma-_- wrote:On April 25 2011 06:10 Blasphemi wrote:On April 25 2011 06:02 Gaius Baltar wrote:
A lot of people have been talking about how SC1 progamers, not WC3 progamers, are the ones succeeding at SC2.
Now let's take a look at this here TSL3. Korean SC1 players, European and NA SC1 players, and European WC3 players all entered. All that remains are four European WC3 players. Honestly, I think their macro has caught up, and perhaps their micro and creativity is starting to shine through.
I'm not saying they're dominant, just that they've truly arrived and are here to stay. Thoughts? The biggest tournaments GSL, Assembly, Dreamhack, MLG are still almost exclusively dominated by BW players. People have no sense of perspective, this is just one online tournament. The only WC3 player to really prove anything yet at the top level are Naniwa and maybe Moon. I still think that in order to really prove you're at the top level you need to go to Korea and make something happen in the GSL. Like in all sports anyone can beat anyone on their day and especially when players play as many games as they do in SC2, but consistancy and winning major tournaments are what really seperate the best from the rest, which is why MC is so clearly the best player playing the game right now. ??? Dreamhack last year, IEM Europe, UGC, Gadget Show, Gathering, MLG Dallas (top 3 Warcraft players) Dreamhack this year had one WC3 player invite (Sjow) and u can hardly say the invites were skill based (Tlo, Huk...). GSL is a really really dumb example to compare Wc3 vs BW cos there are only very few korean Wc3 player playing Sc2. (essentially Moon, Lyn, Soccer and Check are the only one who switched who were somehow notable in Warcraft) Iem World finals had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. Copenhagen Games had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. You also have to note that the difference between BW and SC2 is much smaller than the diffenrence between Warcraft and BW and therefore the players needed a little bit more time to get used to SC2.Which is why I think we had much more BW players in the tournaments shortly after the game was published. Nowadays I dont think there is any difference between BW and WC3 players. All of them are playing the same game... yeah WC3 players won fair share of tournaments but i believe BW players won way more than that
point is they were mostly won either by koreans (mostly BW players) or in the first few month of sc2 (when BW players of course were at an advantage because they could transition a little easier). Soi just wanted tostate that ur skill at sc2 has nothing to do withthe gameu played before.
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On April 25 2011 06:27 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol.
I think the "absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG" picking Nada had more to do with them loving Nada and less to do with their ignorance of EU.
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On April 25 2011 06:27 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol.
Host more major tourneys casted in English then?....
We can't follow these random 1000$ KOTHs and stuff casted in german and expect to know every good European player.
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On April 25 2011 06:28 mdma-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:25 TicketoHELL wrote:On April 25 2011 06:21 mdma-_- wrote:On April 25 2011 06:10 Blasphemi wrote:On April 25 2011 06:02 Gaius Baltar wrote:
A lot of people have been talking about how SC1 progamers, not WC3 progamers, are the ones succeeding at SC2.
Now let's take a look at this here TSL3. Korean SC1 players, European and NA SC1 players, and European WC3 players all entered. All that remains are four European WC3 players. Honestly, I think their macro has caught up, and perhaps their micro and creativity is starting to shine through.
I'm not saying they're dominant, just that they've truly arrived and are here to stay. Thoughts? The biggest tournaments GSL, Assembly, Dreamhack, MLG are still almost exclusively dominated by BW players. People have no sense of perspective, this is just one online tournament. The only WC3 player to really prove anything yet at the top level are Naniwa and maybe Moon. I still think that in order to really prove you're at the top level you need to go to Korea and make something happen in the GSL. Like in all sports anyone can beat anyone on their day and especially when players play as many games as they do in SC2, but consistancy and winning major tournaments are what really seperate the best from the rest, which is why MC is so clearly the best player playing the game right now. ??? Dreamhack last year, IEM Europe, UGC, Gadget Show, Gathering, MLG Dallas (top 3 Warcraft players) Dreamhack this year had one WC3 player invite (Sjow) and u can hardly say the invites were skill based (Tlo, Huk...). GSL is a really really dumb example to compare Wc3 vs BW cos there are only very few korean Wc3 player playing Sc2. (essentially Moon, Lyn, Soccer and Check are the only one who switched who were somehow notable in Warcraft) Iem World finals had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. Copenhagen Games had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. You also have to note that the difference between BW and SC2 is much smaller than the diffenrence between Warcraft and BW and therefore the players needed a little bit more time to get used to SC2.Which is why I think we had much more BW players in the tournaments shortly after the game was published. Nowadays I dont think there is any difference between BW and WC3 players. All of them are playing the same game... yeah WC3 players won fair share of tournaments but i believe BW players won way more than that point is they were mostly won either by koreans (mostly BW players) or in the first few month of sc2 (when BW players of course were at an advantage because they could transition a little easier). Soi just wanted tostate that ur skill at sc2 has nothing to do withthe gameu played before.
Nothing to do with it? If any current BW player in recent MSL or OSL events switched over we would see another MVP caliber player extremely quickly. The mechanics and thought processes from BW would be an enormous asset to those players if they were to switch.
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On April 25 2011 06:29 MrSexington wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:27 s4life wrote:On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol. I think the "absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG" picking Nada had more to do with them loving Nada and less to do with their ignorance of EU.
My point is, if your opinion will affect so many people, shouldn't you make an effort to at least be objective?
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On April 25 2011 06:20 caretony wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:18 David451 wrote:On April 25 2011 06:17 Manimal_pro wrote:
cmon david kim, make hellions 75 minerals so we can have hellion tank vs toss again! i am so tired of medivacs and vikings right now Blue flame hellions are gosu versus toss. They hard counter their only mineral dump. Blue flame helions don't counter zealots... only thing they really counter is workers and with a cannon or spine they don't even do this anymore. Helions are killed waaay too fast in a real fight to deal with the zealots
Zealots are light units and clump up. Because hellions are anti-light splash units, their strength over zealots increases as the number of zealots and hellions gets larger. 10 blue flame hellions versus 10 chargelots is just gross. They should not be getting killed that fast in a real fight, because they can kite away from anything that can hit them.
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So many scrubs in this thread...
Who cares if you live in a closer vicinity than someone else to a specific player. Do you have nothing to be proud of in your own life that you have to take pride in such arbitrary things such as a nationalities results in a SC2 tournament, and make it public? The same thing goes for WC3 vs BW. If you preferred one game, why bother taking pride in a player that was a pro in that game winning... just appreciate the players as people.
On April 25 2011 06:31 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:29 MrSexington wrote:On April 25 2011 06:27 s4life wrote:On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol. I think the "absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG" picking Nada had more to do with them loving Nada and less to do with their ignorance of EU. My point is, if your opinion will affect so many people, shouldn't you make an effort to at least be objective?
What influence do they have over the results of the game? Hmmm....
Yeah... that's right.
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On April 25 2011 06:29 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:27 s4life wrote:On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol. Host more major tourneys casted in English then?.... We can't follow these random 1000$ KOTHs and stuff casted in german and expect to know every good European player.
Why should they? Their language is german, what your asking is almost like "why don't english casters cast in german?". Be glad most of the tournaments are casted in english.
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On April 25 2011 06:21 mdma-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:10 Blasphemi wrote:On April 25 2011 06:02 Gaius Baltar wrote:
A lot of people have been talking about how SC1 progamers, not WC3 progamers, are the ones succeeding at SC2.
Now let's take a look at this here TSL3. Korean SC1 players, European and NA SC1 players, and European WC3 players all entered. All that remains are four European WC3 players. Honestly, I think their macro has caught up, and perhaps their micro and creativity is starting to shine through.
I'm not saying they're dominant, just that they've truly arrived and are here to stay. Thoughts? The biggest tournaments GSL, Assembly, Dreamhack, MLG are still almost exclusively dominated by BW players. People have no sense of perspective, this is just one online tournament. The only WC3 player to really prove anything yet at the top level are Naniwa and maybe Moon. I still think that in order to really prove you're at the top level you need to go to Korea and make something happen in the GSL. Like in all sports anyone can beat anyone on their day and especially when players play as many games as they do in SC2, but consistancy and winning major tournaments are what really seperate the best from the rest, which is why MC is so clearly the best player playing the game right now. ??? Dreamhack last year, IEM Europe, UGC, Gadget Show, Gathering, MLG Dallas (top 3 Warcraft players) Dreamhack this year had one WC3 player invite (Sjow) and u can hardly say the invites were skill based (Tlo, Huk...). GSL is a really really dumb example to compare Wc3 vs BW cos there are only very few korean Wc3 player playing Sc2. (essentially Moon, Lyn, Soccer and Check are the only one who switched who were somehow notable in Warcraft)Iem World finals had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. Copenhagen Games had 2 Warcraft players in the top 4. You also have to note that the difference between BW and SC2 is much smaller than the diffenrence between Warcraft and BW and therefore the players needed a little bit more time to get used to SC2.Which is why I think we had much more BW players in the tournaments shortly after the game was published. Nowadays I dont think there is any difference between BW and WC3 players. All of them are playing the same game...
I don't want to really bother in this discussion, but to exclude the heavy warcraft 3 player count in early SC2 because they aren't as notable as Lyn or Moon is a pretty dumb argument (i.e. just a quick count, you skipped Maka, Zenio, Violet). By that logic you can really only look at the WC3 player results of people like Madfrog or Grubby since those are the "notables"...right now all the considered "WC3 pros" compose a lot of players who played it at 'some' competitive level (i.e. Kiwikaki). SC2 beta and early SC2 last September had a LOT of WC3 players (who aren't notable though) but still dominated the early scene before fading out. I would also go on to say that if you say BW was more poplular in Korea so their WC3 players aren't notable, BW was pretty much dead in Europe, so their BW players aren't "notable" either.
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On April 25 2011 06:31 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:29 MrSexington wrote:On April 25 2011 06:27 s4life wrote:On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol. I think the "absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG" picking Nada had more to do with them loving Nada and less to do with their ignorance of EU. My point is, if your opinion will affect so many people, shouldn't you make an effort to at least be objective?
Probably, but they're still human.
I give them a break. I also don't take everything they say as scripture. And I also enjoy their show.
It's possible to do all 3 at once. It's a good show that's not perfect and it features opinions of a group of 4 humans. Nothing more.
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Ok this thread has seriously become annoying with all the EU vs NA vs Kor crap.
Way to ruin the fun guys. 
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On April 25 2011 06:29 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 06:27 s4life wrote:On April 25 2011 06:21 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
What's up with all that eu nationialism? I mean, even ordinary nationalism is kind of retarded, but still maybe understandable (for some people), this on the other hand....
I think it's compensation for so much ignorance around here regarding the EU scene, rather than nationalism per se. I mean 90% of people picking Huk over HasuObs or the absolutely uninformed hosts of SotG saying that Kas would lose 3-0 Nada -- that made me lol -- and the legions of bots agreeing with them kinda was too much for some people -- me included, and I am not even from europe lol. Host more major tourneys casted in English then?.... We can't follow these random 1000$ KOTHs and stuff casted in german and expect to know every good European player.
Coming from an english speaking European country I can tell you there is an abundance of english casted tournaments. I think time difference makes it much easier for Europeans to watch NA tournaments (they tend to be on late at night whereas ours are on in early afternoon in US) so we tend to be a little bit more aware of what happens on both scenes.
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EPT
