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On April 14 2011 14:46 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:44 Mercadia wrote:On April 14 2011 14:38 Jibba wrote:On April 14 2011 14:36 Mercadia wrote:On April 14 2011 14:33 Jibba wrote:On April 14 2011 14:31 nodule wrote:
HOW DID HE WIN THAT GAME????? Ensnare's factory was incredibly late, and when he did engage it was anti-timing. iNc was never very far behind, I have no idea why Gretorp thought that. He had his first collosus out and second almost finished, with range finished, as Ensnare was just starting to build his first Starport. That, combined with the 6 full energy sentries that he kept alive meant iNc was perfectly safe from Ensnare's pure infantry army. Well played by iNc, but it was hardly an amazing comeback unless you only look at supplies. Did you see the base timings? Ensnare was ahead by 1-1 in upgrades before incontrol started 1-1, he was 30 food ahead, and a base ahead while dropping two starports. "Praise be to Tal'Darim Altar for those ramps and chokes otherwise I was toast" is what incontrol just said on stream. Cause it's true. Without forcefield and colossus Protoss might be held accountable for falling behind in games. Such a joke. Yeah, it should've been a BO loss but Gretorp was going on about how far behind iNc was, after his collosi production had already kicked in. 30 supply of infantry against FF/collusus is nothing. Yeah guess that's just the state of the game  Wish there was a composition for T to win TvP 30 supply down, upgrades down, bases down. Otherwise another great day by NASL. The announced delay was much > than huge errors for viewers or whatever else might have happened. Really enjoying the league. If you're going mass bio, of course you're going to lose when you're 30 food down? He wasn't above on upgrades either, they engaged at 2/2 each. Having more bases means nothing when your army composition is inferior, might as well whine when you're a 5 base zerg trying to mass lings against marine/tank off 3 base.
haha that's a great comparison. Maxing faster means nothing when you have a terrible unit composition, and just sit with it until your opponent reaches an equal supply army but with a far superior composition.
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Diggity was amazing. He looked good, he spoke well and everything he said made sense. He wasn't screaming, he wasn't shouting, but he was entertaining.
That aside, let's not take anything away from InControl. He fell behind sure, but a 200 v 200 army is a matter of skill, whether that skill comes in the way of micro or unit composition. Phoenix are heavily underused as a support unit for a Toss ball and Inc showed how it's done. Those Phoenix won it for him; not one of those vikings got near the colossi in the back and it allowed them to shred the bio ball.
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btw guys guess what...
Thors break forcefields.
gasp.
Might be useful knowledge instead of complaining about forcefields. They're also kind of good units compared to maxing out on marines and marauders then doing nothing. Not that difficult to get a tech lab on your factory and make some of those when you're 4 base with complete map control, and could have easily double expanded instead of playing super-safe while letting a deathball come up. With an income that was probably around 1500/500 per minute, and no engagement for probably 10 minutes, that's not exactly a hard-to-come-by tech additions and he could've had 2/2 on them.
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stop it! stop taking trying to take this away from incontrol and blame balance.
This was 100% in the hands of esnare game 3, he never transitioned.
Like they said in STOG.
Sometimes you have to FORCE things to happen. Drops
cant drop like 4 marauders and call it a day.....
You cannot engage 200 pop vs 200 pop vs colossus mass with just bio.... just doesnt work!
Im a terran player and I cry about protoss all the time, but seriously this was zero to do with balance.
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On April 14 2011 14:46 Lightwish01 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:42 Reason.SC2 wrote:On April 14 2011 14:41 Lightwish01 wrote:
NASL should REALLY make Diggity a fulltime caster....you can really see the difference in professionalism that he brings to the table when compared to Gretorp and Incontrol.
Anyone else feel that Diggity deserves a perma spot on NASL? YES! Please NASL bring on Diggity more often! I AGREE 1000000% I mean WHO THE HECK was the mystery euro caster on the middle 2 games...he was AWFUL!! He was so loud, and when you combined him with how loud and silly Gretorp was it made for an awful commentation experience. Diggity made those other 3 commentators look like CHUMPS! If I here Gretorp say "INDEED" one more time I am going to freak out! Go Diggity!! NASL if you are listening I hope you are going to go with the better caster (Diggity) and not just stick with the other 2 guys just because they were their from the start. Think about how you want NASL to be professional....
Woah there, settle down.
Khaldor is awesome, don't hate on him. I don't think he had the best chemistry with Gretorp, but Khaldor is one of the best casters out there.
It did begin to irk me that Gretorp seemingly has to preface every event with "be able to". The players did something, they weren't able to do something.
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On April 14 2011 14:48 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:48 zyglrox wrote:On April 14 2011 14:43 nodule wrote:On April 14 2011 14:36 ceciljacobs wrote:On April 14 2011 14:33 A Wet Shamwow wrote:On April 14 2011 14:32 xxSK8rGUy277xx wrote:
Defend til 200/200 is going to be the next big thing in the ladder for P v T. No, getting nothing but pure bio isn't going to be the next big thing on ladder. right. terran should be supplementing their bio with beefy dps units right? like colossus? terran have colossus right? Actually, Terran has the highest dps unit in the game. But what was really missing from his army was vikings and medivacs. pretty sure carriers are the highest. marines are either 2nd or 3rd with zealots close behind i believe. Thors. 30 damage a shot, 2 shots per attack I believe. Also, a couple of thors would have murdered those phoenix.
It's carriers with highest DPS. Thors don't attack as fast although they do more damage,
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On April 14 2011 14:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:42 Ravomat wrote:On April 14 2011 14:40 sleigh bells wrote:On April 14 2011 14:37 Ravomat wrote:
instead of going for barracks 5-8 ensnare should have gone for reactored medievacs and start dropping. he got away with a greedy opening and didnt do anything with it. i don't think it's "greedy," it's "oh hey d00d, you just put yourself on a clock, you need to attack...oh wait tiny ramp lol, you should've made medivacs" 1rax expand into 4rax expand is pretty greedy in my eyes. yea right the ramp. either you go medievacs to drop all over his bases or you rally all you got to his base and dont let him get the deathball. ensnare did neither. I saw plenty of medivac drops not hard to stop with a few cannons and stalkers, and what's he gonna do? run up a ramp with a ton of sentries ready to cut his army in half? that map is so easy to defend on for protoss there was nothing ensnare could do to prevent him from going 3 base and maxing out
i saw exactly 2 drops after the deathball was already standing and being completed with a phoenix escort. i think ensnare even had an upgrade advantage for a short time: like 2-2 over 1-1.
i dont know what you're trying to tell me but ensnare didnt play it right which was especially obvious when he engaged at a really bad angle so that he could get forcefielded off. the middle of this map is so huge and he attacks just head on with. incontrol on the other hand did exactly what he needed to.
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On April 14 2011 14:45 ihavetofartosis wrote:
Just to all you guys saying not to let him get that army, do you remember Ensnare trying to engage earlier in the game, but got forcefielded off at the ramp? He is unable to engage because it's physically impossible ie. forcefields were casted.
Ghosts can try to snipe sentries with emp. There are also dropships, which can force toss to split his army between his natural, 3rd, and ramp. And thors can walk over FFs.
Ensnare stayed on only rax for waaaaaaay too long.
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On April 14 2011 14:43 Oddysay wrote:
when will people start to talk about balance for the colosus ?
or you guy will tell me the game perfectly balanced ?
i know teamliquid hate that , but seriously they deserve it so much .
when each time people can only find to say : dont let them get the army ! attack them before !
for exemple in incontrol game he got force field , that not like Ensnare can run up the ramp and win before .
they are something realy wrong with the game when 200 protoss army alway win every fight .
im only high master terran and not that good at sc2 curently , but i dont need to be a pro gamer for know they are something wrong with the deathball protoss army .
QQ
Make tanks, or make BCs, or double drop his bases, or nuke his choke then run up. There were a million options, none of which he took. he didn't even engage with a good concave. Ensnare just built barracks and then walked around herp derping instead of using his advantage well. I find it really annoying that Terrans complain about colossus while insisting on just massing up bio and only bio. That isn't a good strat. It worked when the game was young but not anymore. TvP is a balanced match up. Hell, they even nerfed storm.
InControl's win saved tonight's NASL from it's otherwise boring games.
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On April 14 2011 14:42 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:40 MaxField wrote:On April 14 2011 14:38 Jibba wrote:On April 14 2011 14:36 Mercadia wrote:On April 14 2011 14:33 Jibba wrote:On April 14 2011 14:31 nodule wrote:
HOW DID HE WIN THAT GAME????? Ensnare's factory was incredibly late, and when he did engage it was anti-timing. iNc was never very far behind, I have no idea why Gretorp thought that. He had his first collosus out and second almost finished, with range finished, as Ensnare was just starting to build his first Starport. That, combined with the 6 full energy sentries that he kept alive meant iNc was perfectly safe from Ensnare's pure infantry army. Well played by iNc, but it was hardly an amazing comeback unless you only look at supplies. Did you see the base timings? Ensnare was ahead by 1-1 in upgrades before incontrol started 1-1, he was 30 food ahead, and a base ahead while dropping two starports. "Praise be to Tal'Darim Altar for those ramps and chokes otherwise I was toast" is what incontrol just said on stream. Cause it's true. Without forcefield and colossus Protoss might be held accountable for falling behind in games. Such a joke. Yeah, it should've been a BO loss but Gretorp was going on about how far behind iNc was, after his collosi production had already kicked in. 30 supply of infantry against FF/collusus is nothing. It was smart play by inc to not attack and just wait and try and get his army maxed out. If he would have moved out at all beforehand, he would have gotten stomped pretty bad. Disagree. He probably would've lost too many stalkers, or could've mismicroed and lost the collosi, but there was quite a large window before vikings came out that iNc still should've won any engagement. Probably not decisive enough to win, but enough that Ensnare would've had to retreat unless there was the aforementioned mismicro.
I understand what you are saying, but if Inc moved out it would have been a lot harder for him to get good positioning. When he had about 3-4 colossus out, you are right, Ensnare had like 0 vikings out so INc would have taken the battle, but staying back by that ramp right out side his natural guaranteed a good choke/positioning,
Regardless i am happy that he was able to take the win!
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On April 14 2011 14:51 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:48 Whitewing wrote:On April 14 2011 14:48 zyglrox wrote:On April 14 2011 14:43 nodule wrote:On April 14 2011 14:36 ceciljacobs wrote:On April 14 2011 14:33 A Wet Shamwow wrote:On April 14 2011 14:32 xxSK8rGUy277xx wrote:
Defend til 200/200 is going to be the next big thing in the ladder for P v T. No, getting nothing but pure bio isn't going to be the next big thing on ladder. right. terran should be supplementing their bio with beefy dps units right? like colossus? terran have colossus right? Actually, Terran has the highest dps unit in the game. But what was really missing from his army was vikings and medivacs. pretty sure carriers are the highest. marines are either 2nd or 3rd with zealots close behind i believe. Thors. 30 damage a shot, 2 shots per attack I believe. Also, a couple of thors would have murdered those phoenix. It's carriers with highest DPS. Thors don't attack as fast although they do more damage,
Of course Thors do better later on once armor upgrades come into play since they don't split up their attacks...but that just shows why DPS arguments are stupid anyway!
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On April 14 2011 14:50 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:46 Lightwish01 wrote:On April 14 2011 14:42 Reason.SC2 wrote:On April 14 2011 14:41 Lightwish01 wrote:
NASL should REALLY make Diggity a fulltime caster....you can really see the difference in professionalism that he brings to the table when compared to Gretorp and Incontrol.
Anyone else feel that Diggity deserves a perma spot on NASL? YES! Please NASL bring on Diggity more often! I AGREE 1000000% I mean WHO THE HECK was the mystery euro caster on the middle 2 games...he was AWFUL!! He was so loud, and when you combined him with how loud and silly Gretorp was it made for an awful commentation experience. Diggity made those other 3 commentators look like CHUMPS! If I here Gretorp say "INDEED" one more time I am going to freak out! Go Diggity!! NASL if you are listening I hope you are going to go with the better caster (Diggity) and not just stick with the other 2 guys just because they were their from the start. Think about how you want NASL to be professional.... Woah there, settle down. Khaldor is awesome, don't hate on him. I don't think he had the best chemistry with Gretorp, but Khaldor is one of the best casters out there. It did begin to irk me that Gretorp seemingly has to preface every event with "be able to". The players did something, they weren't able to do something.
*settling down*, hopefully Gretorp will improve, but ultimately I just want to see Diggity commentating full time as he is VERY good.
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On April 14 2011 14:48 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:44 Mercadia wrote:On April 14 2011 14:38 Jibba wrote:On April 14 2011 14:36 Mercadia wrote:On April 14 2011 14:33 Jibba wrote:On April 14 2011 14:31 nodule wrote:
HOW DID HE WIN THAT GAME????? Ensnare's factory was incredibly late, and when he did engage it was anti-timing. iNc was never very far behind, I have no idea why Gretorp thought that. He had his first collosus out and second almost finished, with range finished, as Ensnare was just starting to build his first Starport. That, combined with the 6 full energy sentries that he kept alive meant iNc was perfectly safe from Ensnare's pure infantry army. Well played by iNc, but it was hardly an amazing comeback unless you only look at supplies. Did you see the base timings? Ensnare was ahead by 1-1 in upgrades before incontrol started 1-1, he was 30 food ahead, and a base ahead while dropping two starports. "Praise be to Tal'Darim Altar for those ramps and chokes otherwise I was toast" is what incontrol just said on stream. Cause it's true. Without forcefield and colossus Protoss might be held accountable for falling behind in games. Such a joke. Yeah, it should've been a BO loss but Gretorp was going on about how far behind iNc was, after his collosi production had already kicked in. 30 supply of infantry against FF/collusus is nothing. Yeah guess that's just the state of the game Wish there was a composition for T to win TvP 30 supply down, upgrades down, bases down. Otherwise another great day by NASL. The announced delay was much > than huge errors for viewers or whatever else might have happened. Really enjoying the league. You either need the vikings earlier, or you needed to cut down on sentry numbers earlier. With 6 full energy sentries, P just has too much power to control the engagement against non-tech units.
Ensnare needed ghosts a lot sooner. Get the EMP's off on the sentries and other units and he wins that battle or at least kills enough to rebuild with his strong economy.
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On April 14 2011 14:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:42 Ravomat wrote:On April 14 2011 14:40 sleigh bells wrote:On April 14 2011 14:37 Ravomat wrote:
instead of going for barracks 5-8 ensnare should have gone for reactored medievacs and start dropping. he got away with a greedy opening and didnt do anything with it. i don't think it's "greedy," it's "oh hey d00d, you just put yourself on a clock, you need to attack...oh wait tiny ramp lol, you should've made medivacs" 1rax expand into 4rax expand is pretty greedy in my eyes. yea right the ramp. either you go medievacs to drop all over his bases or you rally all you got to his base and dont let him get the deathball. ensnare did neither. I saw plenty of medivac drops not hard to stop with a few cannons and stalkers, and what's he gonna do? run up a ramp with a ton of sentries ready to cut his army in half? that map is so easy to defend on for protoss there was nothing ensnare could do to prevent him from going 3 base and maxing out
ensnare did 2 horrible drops. one into a cannon, and one into a probe line w/ marauders. no micro on them from what i could tell. mass mass bio without fairly early medivacs is just not viable on this map: too easy to FF, 3 easy expos for P: plenty of resources to get that deathball. you don't HAVE to get 8 rax before factory, and it's just not going to work on such a tight choke. was hoping to see more tank/marine myself.
also, i'm not sure he made a SINGLE viking until he scanned and saw 6 collosus. seriously dude, wtf? you're in code s!
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On April 14 2011 14:46 sleigh bells wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:42 Ravomat wrote:On April 14 2011 14:40 sleigh bells wrote:On April 14 2011 14:37 Ravomat wrote:
instead of going for barracks 5-8 ensnare should have gone for reactored medievacs and start dropping. he got away with a greedy opening and didnt do anything with it. i don't think it's "greedy," it's "oh hey d00d, you just put yourself on a clock, you need to attack...oh wait tiny ramp lol, you should've made medivacs" 1rax expand into 4rax expand is pretty greedy in my eyes. yea right the ramp. either you go medievacs to drop all over his bases or you rally all you got to his base and dont let him get the deathball. ensnare did neither. yeah, it was stupid, i would call "greedy" something like overexpoing, or teching too fast tho. making lots of rax is the opposite, imo. "greedy" =/= "early hyperaggression." and when the drops did happen they sucked "lol, let me drop on a cannon," "oh i hear marauders are good against probes, i won't kill your buildings don't worry"
im not saying playing greedy is bad. it is actually good if you can get away with it which ensnare did and resulted in a 50 supply lead. its just that he went for 3 base mass tier one with extremely late medievacs and didnt attack at all and was just asking to get killed off by colossi.
its like artosis said ensnare didnt impress at all since the beta.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 14 2011 14:51 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:48 Whitewing wrote:On April 14 2011 14:48 zyglrox wrote:On April 14 2011 14:43 nodule wrote:On April 14 2011 14:36 ceciljacobs wrote:On April 14 2011 14:33 A Wet Shamwow wrote:On April 14 2011 14:32 xxSK8rGUy277xx wrote:
Defend til 200/200 is going to be the next big thing in the ladder for P v T. No, getting nothing but pure bio isn't going to be the next big thing on ladder. right. terran should be supplementing their bio with beefy dps units right? like colossus? terran have colossus right? Actually, Terran has the highest dps unit in the game. But what was really missing from his army was vikings and medivacs. pretty sure carriers are the highest. marines are either 2nd or 3rd with zealots close behind i believe. Thors. 30 damage a shot, 2 shots per attack I believe. Also, a couple of thors would have murdered those phoenix. It's carriers with highest DPS. Thors don't attack as fast although they do more damage,
Just looked it up on liquipedia. Carriers do a base of 26.7 dps against a 0 armored target, thors do 46.9. Thors do WAY more DPS than carriers. Carriers benefit slightly more from weapon upgrades, gaining 5.3 DPS per upgrade, but the thors still gain a whopping 4.7 per upgrade, leaving them way ahead at +3 compared to +3 on carriers.
It's not even close. Carriers do have a lot higher DPS against air units though.
EDIT: Interceptors actually attack slower than thors.
EDIT EDIT: Yup, double checked, Thor has the highest DPS in the game.
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On April 14 2011 14:53 Lightwish01 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:50 Node wrote:On April 14 2011 14:46 Lightwish01 wrote:On April 14 2011 14:42 Reason.SC2 wrote:On April 14 2011 14:41 Lightwish01 wrote:
NASL should REALLY make Diggity a fulltime caster....you can really see the difference in professionalism that he brings to the table when compared to Gretorp and Incontrol.
Anyone else feel that Diggity deserves a perma spot on NASL? YES! Please NASL bring on Diggity more often! I AGREE 1000000% I mean WHO THE HECK was the mystery euro caster on the middle 2 games...he was AWFUL!! He was so loud, and when you combined him with how loud and silly Gretorp was it made for an awful commentation experience. Diggity made those other 3 commentators look like CHUMPS! If I here Gretorp say "INDEED" one more time I am going to freak out! Go Diggity!! NASL if you are listening I hope you are going to go with the better caster (Diggity) and not just stick with the other 2 guys just because they were their from the start. Think about how you want NASL to be professional.... Woah there, settle down. Khaldor is awesome, don't hate on him. I don't think he had the best chemistry with Gretorp, but Khaldor is one of the best casters out there. It did begin to irk me that Gretorp seemingly has to preface every event with "be able to". The players did something, they weren't able to do something. *settling down*, hopefully Gretorp will improve, but ultimately I just want to see Diggity commentating full time as he is VERY good.
Unfortunately I don't know if Diggity can afford to do it. He isn't on a pro team like iNcontroL/Gretorp that pays him a salary and can justify letting him commentate on the side, he has a real job (though I don't know what it is). I don't think he's even a Youtube partner! He's married too. I'm so happy for him the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive, though. Fingers crossed he can make it!
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I'm glad that Incontrol won. Great games. Diggity also did a really good job tonight. Hope I see him more!
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On April 14 2011 14:47 PartyBiscuit wrote:
Inc deserved game 3 over Ensnare, plain and simple.
If Ensnare chooses to go 8 barracks 3 CC before factory, that's a build that has to apply non-stop pressure because you're units will be dying quickly but you have huge production. He chose to squander his lead by doing absolutely NO pressure and let Incontrol max out. He then proceeds to engage before his 3/3 completes, and after scanning (and using his lone marauder) to see the massive number of collosus. He then tries to go to the ramp while Incontrol defends his fourth and gets caught....and then decides to engage. There is no way he would beat the deathball if it has sentries in it and he is ghostless with few medivacs.
At the very least, he could have sent a group of units to attempt to snipe the fourth, pull Inc's army back there and mass drop the natural/main (the best option would have been to not let him max out or get a better comp than MMM with very low medivacs). If all he has is pure bio, no tanks, no anything, how does he expect to deal with FFs.
This is exactly what I meant. Thanks PartyBiscuit for telling the story better than I could (need to get used to writing in English forums :/ )
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On April 14 2011 14:51 Haydin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:45 ihavetofartosis wrote:
Just to all you guys saying not to let him get that army, do you remember Ensnare trying to engage earlier in the game, but got forcefielded off at the ramp? He is unable to engage because it's physically impossible ie. forcefields were casted. Ghosts can try to snipe sentries with emp. There are also dropships, which can force toss to split his army between his natural, 3rd, and ramp. And thors can walk over FFs. Ensnare stayed on only rax for waaaaaaay too long.
You know one of the really clever things that Incontrol did that I don't think enough people noticed was his use of the phoenix. Ensnare was planning on pulling incontrol apart with drops all around, but Incontrol immediately shut it down so hard with those phoenix.
It reminded me of what they were talking about on SOTG in BW. Zerg would use scourge to shut down terran drop harass.
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EPT
