EPTNVM, found it after a google search. Really should put up info in the OP, though,
SCReddit Invitational Finals: ft. Day[9] & djWHEAT - Page 35
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Aldehyde
Sweden939 Posts
NVM, found it after a google search. Really should put up info in the OP, though, | ||
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vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:02 ThaZenith wrote: There's no issue. Some people don't find 4 gates entertaining. Period. Nobody cares if they're strong/weak, easy/hard, we find them boring. That's all we were saying. If you love watching protoss 4 gate every game, that's all fine. Good for you. Don't know why you're defending the guy who basically said people have no right to find 4 gates boring... I'm not defending him really. I just don't get why you'd (not you specifically but everyone complaining about White-Ra's play) bother posting in a Starcraft 2 pro tournament thread that watching pro Starcraft 2 is boring. What about MC 4gating Jinro? Was that boring? | ||
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Eggcake
Switzerland722 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:02 ThaZenith wrote: There's no issue. Some people don't find 4 gates entertaining. Period. Nobody cares if they're strong/weak, easy/hard, we find them boring. That's all we were saying. If you love watching protoss 4 gate every game, that's all fine. Good for you. Don't know why you're defending the guy who basically said people have no right to find 4 gates boring... Actually, they don't have to be boring if they get defended properly. Like Shakuras or Xelnaga. Those were 4-/5- Gate attacks. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On January 17 2011 09:58 Kuzmorgo wrote: O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is? Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". It's hard to predict the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to die a slow painful death. If he made 10 lings there instead of 5 drones the outcome would have been more or less the same, but if your not feeling any pressure it would be futile to make them if they aren't going to be put to use. Blistering game was cookie-cutter, mistake by Morrow to not keep an eye on White-Ra's army, and knowing that he made a brilliant switch to take the free expo. was GG after that. | ||
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FearGorm
United States112 Posts
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SeaGnome
United States32 Posts
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:10 Slardar wrote: Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". Do you know how Zerg actually has to play? It's not greedy, it's regular play. You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to lose a slow painful death. After 3 games with early 4-5 gate aggression morrow should have been able to change his game plan accordingly, expecting early aggression. His decision making wasn't the best in today's match- | ||
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Eggcake
Switzerland722 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:10 Slardar wrote: Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". Do you know how Zerg actually has to play? It's not greedy, it's regular play. You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to lose a slow painful death. 1. You can be greedy as a zerg. Zerg's regular play is to get as much drones as possible with just the right amount of defenses. But Morrow didn't play like that, he made too many drones, so he was too greedy. " You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you." WTF, of course you can't predict, but you can scout or prepare for the worst. Morrow did neither (for example on Blistering). Everything else is a risky all-in play. Actually it isn't WhiteRa who did the allins, it was Morrow, when he was just assuming WhiteRa to not attack him. That's not how you should play... | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:13 Eggcake wrote: 1. You can be greedy as a zerg. Zerg's regular play is to get as much drones as possible with just the right amount of defenses. But Morrow didn't play like that, he made too many drones, so he was too greedy. " You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you." WTF, of course you can't predict, but you can scout or prepare for the worst. Morrow did neither (for example on Blistering). I'll disagree on that. White-Ra was distinctively denying scouting, Morrow had both Xel'Naga towers under his possession. You could just as well assume 3-gate Expo, 3 gate-Stargate or 3G-Robo. All are just as viable but White-Ra chose 5gate. To guess what the opponent is going to do this game because of what he did previous game isn't a plan. Just because that's what happened this time doesn't mean you can go around saying that. People mix in strategies all the time to confuse their opponents. 1) How was he too greedy? The second White-ra marched to his front door he realized Morrow had an impressive defense so he backed up. When they actually engaged Morrow defended, but if he had not lost that expansion he would have an additional Hatch worth of production and would have rolled over White-Ra. That was his critical mistake which lost him the game, not being overly greedy. | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:12 mordk wrote: After 3 games with early 4-5 gate aggression morrow should have been able to change his game plan accordingly, expecting early aggression. His decision making wasn't the best in today's match- His decision making was exactly as good as what got him there in the first place. Expecting aggression because WhiteRa just did it last game is generally not solid play. Morrow will learn from his mistakes and come back stronger next time. There are so many subtle things to learn in every zerg matchup, he obviously doesn't know them all yet. | ||
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TheCrow
Norway296 Posts
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:18 Pwere wrote: His decision making was exactly as good as what got him there in the first place. Expecting aggression because WhiteRa just did it last game is generally not solid play. Morrow will learn from his mistakes and come back stronger next time. There are so many subtle things to learn in every zerg matchup, he obviously doesn't know them all yet. He did it in 3 matches in a row, that clearly shows a trend, in that white-ra chose early aggression to counter morrow's early drone powering, he probably watched a ton of his games and decided that was the weakness to exploit, what I question about morrow's decision making is that in a bo7 you can actually afford to lose a game or 2 to such a strategy, it allows you to change your game plan in reaction to what you see, in this case, morrow didn't, he should have played it safer in games 3 and 4. And yes, I agree he will improve, he's obviously a very good player, he just looked outsmarted by Ra today, he's not played zerg for that long and he's already a top one, so he's got tons of space to improve his game. The thing is, 4-gate is by no means imbalanced, particularly in a bo7 setting, and all this QQing makes it seem so, morrow just made a few wrong decisions which cost him the matches, they're small and subtle mistakes that make a world of difference. He also just got unlucky with close position metalopolis, which just plain sucks for zerg. | ||
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:09 vrok wrote: I'm not defending him really. I just don't get why you'd (not you specifically but everyone complaining about White-Ra's play) bother posting in a Starcraft 2 pro tournament thread that watching pro Starcraft 2 is boring. What about MC 4gating Jinro? Was that boring? Watching pros play like pros is awesome, not every game will be awesome but we watch hoping for some epic games. And MC 4 gating Jinro only got good after he failed/stopped 4 gating. On January 17 2011 10:10 Eggcake wrote: Actually, they don't have to be boring if they get defended properly. Like Shakuras or Xelnaga. Those were 4-/5- Gate attacks. Failed 4 gates can be great games, because that'll lead into expansions and a normal, straight up game. It's the games ended by 1 base, 4 gate that are lame. Just make me sigh and wish i had done something else during that time. lol White-Ra can be the best protoss/best 4 gater ever, I'll still dislike the opening because I've seen it way, way too often. I'm not saying him 4 gating was bad or good, but I disliked it. That's it. ^^ | ||
Noam
Israel2209 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:12 FearGorm wrote: Thanks everyone for watching the SCReddit Invitational! Post-event wrap-up, including voting for best game, coming soon! Thank YOU and everybody else involved for organizing such an awesome event! Was a blast, really really looking forward to any future events. Regarding the best game, it's really a definition battle. "Best Game" would be Kiwi vs MorroW on metal, but the amazing maneuver on Xel'Naga should really get some love as well  | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
Anyway we see stuff like this happening all the time, be it at the very highest level in korea or in practically every foreigner tournament. I think everyone is quite aware of the fact that sc2 is in a fairly immature state and has a long way to go before we see something even in the vicinity of the final product. Stuff like this is going to keep happening for a long time and I think its easier to adapt an attitude of "whatever brings you victories is, by definition, good play." Boxer freaking bunker rushed yellow 3 times in a row in the 2004 OSL and hardly anyone uttered a word. He was just a guy playing to his strengths, and thanks to that he won a large sum of money. As for this thread, the imbalance cries and such. In a way I don't see anything wrong with that either. Even the white-ra/morrow bashing. Take a look at any popular sport or esport in the history of civilisation and you'll see clear as daylight that good sport evokes emotion. What the hell would sc2 be if it didn't? People don't say "oh well my favourite just got 5 gated 3 times in a row and lost but who cares" just like a soccer fan wouldn't be all fine and dandy with his national team losing due to hyper-defensive italy being huge faggots all game long. If anything it shows that people actually give a fuck and are already very passionate about this game. gz white-ra and morrow on first and second place you're both awesome | ||
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vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:27 ThaZenith wrote: Watching pros play like pros is awesome, not every game will be awesome but we watch hoping for some epic games. And MC 4 gating Jinro only got good after he failed/stopped 4 gating. That was my point really. You can't blame White-Ra for being successful at it. That's not fair. | ||
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insult
59 Posts
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Alphaes
United States651 Posts
On January 17 2011 10:10 Slardar wrote: Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". It's hard to predict the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to die a slow painful death. If he made 10 lings there instead of 5 drones the outcome would have been more or less the same, but if your not feeling any pressure it would be futile to make them if they aren't going to be put to use. Blistering game was cookie-cutter, mistake by Morrow to not keep an eye on White-Ra's army, and knowing that he made a brilliant switch to take the free expo. was GG after that. In the case of Morrow, though, he really does feel somewhat too greedy. Even other Zergs like Dimaga and Haypro commented on his excessive droning during early game in the HomestoryCup. Also, he tends to have a static early game build (ie, rarely Hatch first) that makes it easy to exploit for timing attacks. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45177 Posts
First and foremost, you play to win. You cheese if you think that will work best. You 4-gate if you think that will work best. You fast-expand if you think that will work best. If I 4-gate against my opponent ten times in a row and he still doesn't change his build to stop the attack, I'm probably going to do it an eleventh time. The spectators may find it boring, but the player's top priority is to win the game. Heck, I'd be madder at the victim who wasn't good enough to change his build in order to force the aggressor into something other than a 4-gate (for the eleventh time). I certainly can't blame the winner for finding a build that works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. | ||
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