After a brief hiatus, the hotly-anticipated SCReddit Invitational Finals are here. White-Ra and MorroW have triumphed against some of the best players in the world to get to this point through grueling group stages and single elimination brackets. Now these fierce competitors will vie for a top prize of $1200, $600 to charity, and an MLG-grade headset. Will the wily Protoss from Ukraine triumph, or will the Swedish Zerg's brute-force-macro prove too much to handle? Find out this Sunday at 6 p.m. EST January 16, and tune in for soon-to-be-announced special pre-show showmatch between Janook and Liquid`Tyler at 4:00 p.m. EST.
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Poll: Who do you think will be the first SCRI Champion?
White-Ra (162)
69%
MorroW (74)
31%
236 total votes
Your vote: Who do you think will be the first SCRI Champion?
I've looked in the other thread, and I'm probably just being stupid, but I can't find any links to VODs for it, but it sounded like they were up (maybe they aren't).
Why does djWHEAT look like such a badass while Day[9] just has a perky smile? Either way, at least we get epic Day[J]WHEAT back casting. Can't wait to see what happens.
On January 13 2011 04:18 MorefaSho wrote: I've looked in the other thread, and I'm probably just being stupid, but I can't find any links to VODs for it, but it sounded like they were up (maybe they aren't).
They aren't up yet - when they are, they will be on the SCReddit blip.tv (http://screddit.blip.tv/posts?view=archive) and the SCReddit YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/screddit). They should hopefully be up pretty soon. Watch screddit.com for the announcement.
Hahaha Sean looks so goofy in that picture. Anyways, i can't wait for the finals and mad props to the organisers for actually arranging a pregame showmatch. GO WHITERA!
On January 13 2011 04:13 IPA wrote: That's playoff Sunday for NFL. I'll wait for VODs. D:
Great job with the tourney folks! I love the charity aspect as well.
You dare to watch football instead of Starcraft! Heresy!
Anyways, I'm quite pumped up for these finals. The SCReddit invitational was incredible. Hopefully, the finals will be the proper finale to this awesome spectacle.
In the meantime if anyone is wanting to see more footage from the tournament I've done commentary on Fenix vs Minigun from the RO8 which you can find on my channel (game 1 is featured should be easy to find the rest from there). I believe TotalBiscuit was going to be casting this series as well but dunno where that is, couldn't find it on his youtube.
Really lookin forward to the finals and I'm sure the preshow will be good too, maybe some matchups other than ZvP xD
yeah move it 2h earlier and it will be way better.... Although i can't imagine White-Ra in a macro game co there is a chance it will be over in a hour or so... is it BO7?
That means the match starts at midnight for morrow and 1 am for whitera....if the match takes forever , I wonder if they'll fall asleep before I do. I guess it's impossible to find a timing that suits specs from all over the world (inc. myself this time) but...shouldn't the players be taken into account so we're sure we get decent finals (unless pros play their best at 3-4 am, in which case I'm getting really old?) ?
I agree it would be pretty rediculous to make marrow and white-ra play in the middle of the night just because the tourney is on the NA server. I mean the other NA players are already knoked out. I think they could start like 3 or 4 hours earlier at least. This will give enough time and sleeprest for everyone. Not many european fans are going to start watching a BO7 in the middle of the night if they have to get up early the following morning. It's a shame tho, this will be epic, and too bad i'll have to miss it. Gonna wait for vods.
However I think this points out the need for a "Resume Replay" function. They need to separate out the surrender function from the disconnect one and build a UI that would allow for resuming.
The SC Reddit team did a great job and I'm glad we finally get to see the conclusion.
It was frustrating to watch when the original finals were being played and Morrow DC'd 4 times in a row, but so glad now that its now rescheduled and hopefully no more internet issues!
On January 13 2011 21:26 MooMooMugi wrote: It was frustrating to watch when the original finals were being played and Morrow DC'd 4 times in a row, but so glad now that its now rescheduled and hopefully no more internet issues!
It'll be done by replay so internet issues won't be a problem. :D
On January 13 2011 19:40 Eurekastreet wrote: That means the match starts at midnight for morrow and 1 am for whitera....if the match takes forever , I wonder if they'll fall asleep before I do. I guess it's impossible to find a timing that suits specs from all over the world (inc. myself this time) but...shouldn't the players be taken into account so we're sure we get decent finals (unless pros play their best at 3-4 am, in which case I'm getting really old?) ?
Or are we talking replays here ?
They already said that they're doing replays in the old thread I believe
On January 13 2011 19:40 Eurekastreet wrote: That means the match starts at midnight for morrow and 1 am for whitera....if the match takes forever , I wonder if they'll fall asleep before I do. I guess it's impossible to find a timing that suits specs from all over the world (inc. myself this time) but...shouldn't the players be taken into account so we're sure we get decent finals (unless pros play their best at 3-4 am, in which case I'm getting really old?) ?
Or are we talking replays here ?
Replays this time. On the first attempt they played on the american server at like 3/4 Am. Playing on the NA server from Europe means pretty insane lagg in most cases.
On January 13 2011 19:40 Eurekastreet wrote: That means the match starts at midnight for morrow and 1 am for whitera....if the match takes forever , I wonder if they'll fall asleep before I do. I guess it's impossible to find a timing that suits specs from all over the world (inc. myself this time) but...shouldn't the players be taken into account so we're sure we get decent finals (unless pros play their best at 3-4 am, in which case I'm getting really old?) ?
Or are we talking replays here ?
Replays this time. On the first attempt they played on the american server at like 3/4 Am. Playing on the NA server from Europe means pretty insane lagg in most cases.
Where did you hear this? I was under the impression they were simply going to get EU accounts for the admins and casters of the tourney and have Morrow and WhiteRa play on their normal accounts.
On January 13 2011 19:40 Eurekastreet wrote: That means the match starts at midnight for morrow and 1 am for whitera....if the match takes forever , I wonder if they'll fall asleep before I do. I guess it's impossible to find a timing that suits specs from all over the world (inc. myself this time) but...shouldn't the players be taken into account so we're sure we get decent finals (unless pros play their best at 3-4 am, in which case I'm getting really old?) ?
Or are we talking replays here ?
Replays this time. On the first attempt they played on the american server at like 3/4 Am. Playing on the NA server from Europe means pretty insane lagg in most cases.
Where did you hear this? I was under the impression they were simply going to get EU accounts for the admins and casters of the tourney and have Morrow and WhiteRa play on their normal accounts.
I can confirm it's replays. We're not taking any chances
For anyone waiting on the VODs, I'm uploading them now. It's been much more difficult than normal because I've done close to 100% of the work via remote connection, so I have no way to double checking things like quality before uploading them. Hopefully things have gone mostly well, but I'll be returning home for the weekend to straighten everything out, and reup any VODs that have problems.
i want a toss to win but thats overrided by miles over idra's bet with Morrow. This is the 1st prized tourney that actually matters and idra would have to never use the word balance EVER again!
On January 15 2011 06:12 sekritzzz wrote: i want a toss to win but thats overrided by miles over idra's bet with Morrow. This is the 1st prized tourney that actually matters and idra would have to never use the word balance EVER again!
Somehow I don't think IdrA really cares if MorroW wins the SCReddit tourney when he just took out Genius/Clide/Nada to get in the RO8 of the first real GSL.
On January 15 2011 06:12 sekritzzz wrote: i want a toss to win but thats overrided by miles over idra's bet with Morrow. This is the 1st prized tourney that actually matters and idra would have to never use the word balance EVER again!
Somehow I don't think IdrA really cares if MorroW wins the SCReddit tourney when he just took out Genius/Clide/Nada to get in the RO8 of the first real GSL.
Indeed i think IdrA's standard of tournaments that matters are different than most people lol. I think in State of the game they said he probably considers anything not GSL as mid lvl and below. So probably Morrow will have to win some LANs in order for idra to not talk about balance.
And this might be the first time i am not really rooting for White-Ra because Morrow has shown us some awesome games and i think he deserves this.
Awwww yeah. The SCRI is getting some Liquid representation and a break from all the ZvP we've seen. Now that Husky is casting, is there anyone famous that Reddit didn't get?
On January 15 2011 06:07 SeaGnome wrote: For anyone waiting on the VODs, I'm uploading them now. It's been much more difficult than normal because I've done close to 100% of the work via remote connection, so I have no way to double checking things like quality before uploading them. Hopefully things have gone mostly well, but I'll be returning home for the weekend to straighten everything out, and reup any VODs that have problems.
Kiwikaki vs. Morrow G3 has only the first 20 minutes of the game up, and I'd love to see the rest of it.
What's more surprising, that MorroW & White-Ra (probably two of the top three favorites heading in) made the finals or that SCRI snagged Husky for the pre-show?
On January 15 2011 13:49 airety wrote: What's more surprising, that MorroW & White-Ra (probably two of the top three favorites heading in) made the finals or that SCRI snagged Husky for the pre-show?
Pro players? No problem. Awesome casters like Day9? Check. Famous youtube caster? Yep.
My god, I just finished watching MorroW vs Kiwikaki. Such an awesome series! What are they doing playing this tournament, though? They should be in the GSL, tearing shit up.
MorroW ftw! You're already as good as IdrA and Ret.
Even though I watched them live I just had to go back to watch the KiWiKaKi vs MorroW VODs. Such an amazing series.
Definitely one of the best series... ever. Top 3 for sure.
The game on metal is the only game I can remember with one player completely mining out his half of the map. Sure, one might see it in a TvT, but in a ZvP? Unbelievable. I still can't get over how close it was the entire game.
Even though I watched them live I just had to go back to watch the KiWiKaKi vs MorroW VODs. Such an amazing series.
Definitely one of the best series... ever. Top 3 for sure.
The game on metal is the only game I can remember with one player completely mining out his half of the map. Sure, one might see it in a TvT, but in a ZvP? Unbelievable. I still can't get over how close it was the entire game.
Honestly I do not see Ra standing a chance against Morrow's current form, but I hope Ra's experience will make a difference. Thinking of EU or US Zergs that could rival Morrow atm only Darkforce, Dimaga and Idra comes to mind, and I only think Idra could beat him now.
It will surely be a great final, been waiting for ages for this.
I don't usually watch SC2 streams on anything other than my computer monitor but I'll probably be streaming it on my TV this time around. Looks like it'll be a great production and a great set of games.
EDIT: That teaser trailer for the finals is kick-ass by the way.
On January 16 2011 11:33 StewKer wrote: I don't usually watch SC2 streams on anything other than my computer monitor but I'll probably be streaming it on my TV this time around. Looks like it'll be a great production and a great set of games.
EDIT: That teaser trailer for the finals is kick-ass by the way.
On January 16 2011 11:20 HowardRoark wrote: Honestly I do not see Ra standing a chance against Morrow's current form, but I hope Ra's experience will make a difference. Thinking of EU or US Zergs that could rival Morrow atm only Darkforce, Dimaga and Idra comes to mind, and I only think Idra could beat him now.
It will surely be a great final, been waiting for ages for this.
Your overestimating morrows vP alot, both nani and mana have comfortably beat him in the last few cups hes been in
On January 16 2011 11:20 HowardRoark wrote: Honestly I do not see Ra standing a chance against Morrow's current form, but I hope Ra's experience will make a difference. Thinking of EU or US Zergs that could rival Morrow atm only Darkforce, Dimaga and Idra comes to mind, and I only think Idra could beat him now.
It will surely be a great final, been waiting for ages for this.
MorroW definitely had a coming out this tourney, but I still think Machine is a little more solid. MorroW's mechanics are some of the best in the world, but I think he just needs another 1000 hours to improve his decision making. He's got best in the world creep mechanics, his macro is pretty good... he tightens up his timings, makes slightly better decisions and he's a force. A very young force
I have no doubt MorroW will give White-Ra everything he can handle.
looks like a great game gonna have to decide if i wanna watch this or the playoffs tomnorrow, i wonder if i can get some kind of dual screen action going... lets go white-ra you got this.
Oh wow a show match with tyler now thats a full line up of awesome starcraft :D
On January 16 2011 11:33 StewKer wrote: I don't usually watch SC2 streams on anything other than my computer monitor but I'll probably be streaming it on my TV this time around. Looks like it'll be a great production and a great set of games.
EDIT: That teaser trailer for the finals is kick-ass by the way.
It's awesome, definitely do that. I'm watching "HD" GSL and TaKe's tournament on television, it's so much better.
By the way: WhiteRa is on the finals of TaKes tournament at the moment. It just starts and it's a Bo7
I was a little disappointed last week when the final couldn't be played. Been looking forward to them all week now and finally it's time to crown the champion of this awesome tourney (thank you reddit for an amazing tournament).
I love both WhiteRa and MorroW, but in this finals I root for MorroW slightly more. Go MorroW!
I believe if this had been played on schedule MorroW would have been favourite to win, he was really looking to be in the zone that day. Now i'm not sure when this was played, I suspect this weekend, but WhiteRa have been looking sick good these last days. I believe he has the upper hand.
Justin.tv always seems to be like this, my bandwidth can handle the stream and it isn't a hardware problem on my end. Either justin.tv's servers cannot handle the viewers or there is a problem on the broadcaster's end. But I'm pretty sure the reddit folk are smart enough to have cazter with a superb line.
So far the stream, with just the SCRI logo and the music, has been great. No lag as of yet. Streaming it on my laptop, and projecting it to my 47" TV (vga ports ftw).
On January 17 2011 06:24 Odoakar wrote: What happened with Husky, was looking forward to hearing him?:|
Oh yeah, nice slideshow.
The mods in the chat were saying that because of Husky's internet continually crapping out, they talked with him and decided to go with TotalBiscuit instead.
On January 17 2011 06:24 Odoakar wrote: What happened with Husky, was looking forward to hearing him?:|
Oh yeah, nice slideshow.
The mods in the chat were saying that because of Husky's internet continually crapping out, they talked with him and decided to go with TotalBiscuit instead.
good trade imho. prefer tb ~
could anyone update in the thread when the lag is fixed?
On January 17 2011 06:31 MBH wrote: Someone tell TB to turn in-game sound on.
Pretty sure they had a seperate observer last time, given tb keeps commentating on things we can't see while settings are adjusted it wouldn't surprise me if that is the case this time too.
stream pretty terrible here too, pushing towards unwatchable now.
On January 17 2011 06:25 SnapCall wrote: had also huge lags even on 240p, just switched my browser(from opera to firefox) and now it works on "best". you might wanna try that as well
Huh?! You are right! I switched from Chrome and watching the stream directly on TeamLiquid. It worked for 3 minutes straight, but now the lags are back. But it's way better than before with 240p and Chrome. Still very bad though...
Can someone from Northern America restream? I will keep the justin.tv open, but I would also like to be able to watch it. I remember Nony did restream it last time, but he is playing now, so I doubt he can.
On January 17 2011 06:36 Eggcake wrote: Well, I'm out. Still unwatchable sadly and I doubt it gets better anytime soon.
I'm done as well. This is actually unwatchable. When tyler pushed into janook's nat it just froze for like 5 seconds. Terrible quality. I will wait for replays of Morrow and White-ra. Sad stuff atm
On January 17 2011 06:35 HowardRoark wrote: Can someone from Northern America restream? I will keep the justin.tv open, but I would also like to be able to watch it. I remember Nony did restream it last time, but he is playing now, so I doubt he can.
Nony did it last time and was asked to take it down.. so i don't recommend this one
On January 17 2011 06:35 HowardRoark wrote: Can someone from Northern America restream? I will keep the justin.tv open, but I would also like to be able to watch it. I remember Nony did restream it last time, but he is playing now, so I doubt he can.
Nony did it last time and was asked to take it down.. so i don't recommend this one
if they simultaneously fail to deliver a watchable stream to the rest of the world and actively prevent others from setting up a workaround for these problems.... they can go f*ck themselves.
On January 17 2011 06:25 SnapCall wrote: had also huge lags even on 240p, just switched my browser(from opera to firefox) and now it works on "best". you might wanna try that as well
Huh?! You are right! I switched from Chrome and watching the stream directly on TeamLiquid. It worked for 3 minutes straight, but now the lags are back. But it's way better than before with 240p and Chrome. Still very bad though...
As I'm writing the stream freezed completely -.-
yeah, after a few minutes it got laggy again aswell for me...dont really know what the problem is, but its definitly not my internet, other streams running smoothly on higher quality
I thought the SCV's take same priority now? It looked like the Zealots were still running around like retards instead of attacking the SCV's before the thor :/
On January 17 2011 06:47 Pervect wrote: I thought the SCV's take same priority now? It looked like they were still running around like retards instead of attacking the SCV's before the thor :/
THey do, tyler as far as I saw rightclicked the thor and thus ignored the scv. Big mistake
On January 17 2011 06:47 Pervect wrote: I thought the SCV's take same priority now? It looked like they were still running around like retards instead of attacking the SCV's before the thor :/
every single time the zealots got close, he would pull the closest scvs away for a split second, causing the zealots to target the thor.
On January 17 2011 06:47 Pervect wrote: I thought the SCV's take same priority now? It looked like they were still running around like retards instead of attacking the SCV's before the thor :/
THey do, tyler as far as I saw rightclicked the thor and thus ignored the scv. Big mistake
This is a viable tactic if you have a big enough force. Idra did this (after the patch) vs. NaDa and told in the interview, that this wasn't a mistake, it was intended.
and i actually like that new thor push technique demonstrated by janook here. by pulling the targeted scvs back, a thorpush now requires the same amount of micro from the terran as defending against it.
On January 17 2011 06:57 StewKer wrote: Streams working good for me but are we not hearing any ingame sound? I hear TB fine, but nothing from the game.
He has mentioned they are having issues with the ingame sound.. there is an independent observer so not much he can do
Someone should tell Janook how to build vikings when he sees colossus..
On January 17 2011 06:57 StewKer wrote: Streams working good for me but are we not hearing any ingame sound? I hear TB fine, but nothing from the game.
He has mentioned they are having issues with the ingame sound.. there is an independent observer so not much he can do
Hopefully they resolve it for the finals. Some great games so far.
On January 17 2011 07:05 gForce. wrote: Ahh... is Justin.tv usually that laggy for non-american viewers? Seriously, right now I'm watching it on 240p with closed chat and it's still laggy :S
Janook had the right idea, but his tank line was too balled up. Tyler did that brilliant juke and caught him completely unsieged. But his earlier harass was very effective at crippling Tyler's econ.
On January 17 2011 07:06 Eggcake wrote: "But jinro said..." haha
lmao, awful that he disconnected after that, just made it WAY more awkward. If Tyler had waited much longer he would've been in a ton of trouble as the economic damage compounded. He controlled that attack very well
This is how you deal with mech not like what MC do and fight it head on Take advantage of its slow mobility and attack while tanks are unsiege Great game
i dont understand it. people go mech acting like it isn't obvious that mech is not mobile and dont do an extremely easy thing to not get owned, control the xel nagas and make sensor towers in the direction you aren't pushing in.
people saying "omg tyler is the best and showed everyone how to play against mech" are ignoring the fact that omg janook didn't utilize the most useful building or put units on the sensor towers when going mech and lost because of it.
Seemed like a great game, Janook's harassment was everywhere, great swing-around the tank line though maybe sensor towers could have made a difference.
On January 17 2011 07:09 DarkRise wrote: This is how you deal with mech not like what MC do and fight it head on Take advantage of its slow mobility and attack while tanks are unsiege Great game
Jinro didn't give MC that opportunity in Scrap Station by pushing through the rocks and he didn't have the chance on LT either because of the close positions.
And what exactly would have been the benefit of that? He saw him coming, if he unsieged before, he could have engaged directly without even forcing him to unsiege by going to his natural. It was just very bad positioning, the left flank was wide open.
Is anyone else finding it strange that Janook doesnt build anything to counter the collosus? He is going marine heavy and the collosus are tearing through his army..
"Observers cost about 3 pence i can buy them down at the local store" .. lol oh TB
On January 17 2011 07:27 Eggcake wrote: Wow, can someone point me to that game Kiwikaki vs. Morrow where he sniped the Lair and espaced with mass recall?!
The GSL can learn a few things from these Reddit guys.... seriously. They know how to hype something up. That montage of the games so far was off the chain!
Mad props to all you guys at SCReddit for making this happen! The recaps, trailers and just general production value really are top-notch. Even when only watching the highlights I felt the epicness of Morrow vs Kiwikaki. Great job!
Wow... I'm amazed at the production values for this event.. with this.. TSL.. so many other tourneys being played SC2 is more amazing every day. Awesome hype video BTW, and incredible match between kiwi and morrow.
On January 17 2011 07:42 pampelmus wrote: Maybe I am stupid, but does anyone know where I can find the VODs from Machine vs Kiwikaki and Morrow vs Kiwikaki?
On January 17 2011 07:39 Kutnatsen wrote: When does it start?
It's supposed to start at 8:kst, 6EST, basically in 17 minutes.
Btw, again, I just want to say to all of the Reddit Community: Thank you. I honestly didn't think there could be another community that could rival Teamliquid's dedication to starcraft, but this tournament is...
It's just so amazing. Production quality is fantastic. It's not just the normal "Oh hey, let's play each players games, then wait 20 minutes, play another game." There are highlight videos, there are intro videos, there are amazing casters and amazing games.
This tournament was one of the best I've ever experienced. Thank you.
Excelent highlight reel, seriously this whole tourny has been amazingly well produced. I shat my pants and screamed like a little girl during kiwi v morrow.
On January 17 2011 07:39 Kutnatsen wrote: When does it start?
It's supposed to start at 8:kst, 6EST, basically in 17 minutes.
Btw, again, I just want to say to all of the Reddit Community: Thank you. I honestly didn't think there could be another community that could rival Teamliquid's dedication to starcraft, but this tournament is...
It's just so amazing. Production quality is fantastic. It's not just the normal "Oh hey, let's play each players games, then wait 20 minutes, play another game." There are highlight videos, there are intro videos, there are amazing casters and amazing games.
This tournament was one of the best I've ever experienced. Thank you.
There was tons of waiting during the tournament though. Playing the same video with players favorite unit and whatever multiple times during the waiting doesn't make it not waiting. Just saying.
Gratz to casters as well, in particular TB. He's really new at casting SC but he's doing a wonderful job. Give him a nice, knowledgeable cocaster to complement TB's fun and exciting casting and he'll absolutely rock
i love TB, he bring something fresh when he cast, probably his accent and well thought sentences when he cast. hope one day we can see TB cast with day9 or somebody that have a more knowledge about the game to compliment his casting
On January 17 2011 08:04 n0ise wrote: Meh, WhiteRa been playing all day, it's like the 9000th finals he has to play today. Not to mention it's like 3 am over there.
Hope he's not overly exhausted and can still put up sum awezum games.
Morrow is from sweden so they are in a similar timezone
On January 17 2011 08:04 n0ise wrote: Meh, WhiteRa been playing all day, it's like the 9000th finals he has to play today. Not to mention it's like 3 am over there.
Hope he's not overly exhausted and can still put up sum awezum games.
White-Ra is the Ukrainian terminator model. Much better than the Austrian one. He never gets tired and he never stops. Ever!
Yeah, I'll have to chime on what's already been said here. Top notch production value. Without good games and casting, all the polish in the would wouldn't mean squat though. Luckily that's not the case here, and to be honest this might very well be the most entertaining tournament I've had the pleasure to watch. Amazing games and amazing casting. Oh joy.
The games have been played, they are being cast from replays, nobody knows the results. The casting is live, the stream is live, the commentary is NOT pre-recorded at all.
On January 17 2011 08:19 .Theory wrote: Wow, Morrows making WhiteRa look like a macro noob 200/200 against 130 before first big engagement.
Well, the game was practically over after that failed push. Still morrow played it perfectly and against white-ra you're not getting away with anything less than perfect.
Does anyone have the idra quote about Morrow not being capable of winning a tournament using zerg? (after first IEM) I don't remember exactly what he said but he could be eating his words based on that performance :o
On January 17 2011 08:19 Telcontar wrote: Morrow was just too far ahead after holding that crazy 5 gate rush off.
I really don't even get the 5gate rush, it's delayed so much it hits like 1 minute later than normal 4gate and you can't even support 5 gates on 1 base even with 80 probes mining(aka full saturation), so I have no idea why he does that, though I guess it's so that he can pressure more at once and it doesn't hurt that much when he moves back to reinforce(aka bad macro I guess), but overall I really think 4gate is far superior.
On January 17 2011 08:19 Telcontar wrote: Morrow was just too far ahead after holding that crazy 5 gate rush off.
I really don't even get the 5gate rush, it's delayed so much it hits like 1 minute later than normal 4gate and you can't even support 5 gates on 1 base even with 80 probes mining(aka full saturation), so I have no idea why he does that, though I guess it's so that he can pressure more at once and it doesn't hurt that much when he moves back to reinforce(aka bad macro I guess), but overall I really think 4gate is far superior.
On January 17 2011 08:24 freeze_muc wrote: If whitera wins this too..it would have been a very succesful wekend for him. destroying europes elite in takes homecoming cup AND winning reddit.
Yeah it wouldn't really surprise me, the guy was on top of the foreigner bw scene for many many years. He's just always solid.
On January 17 2011 08:29 krevlorn wrote: hehe their timing is off again - ihad this happen with a mate - we where at same speed but he was getting 5secs of every 4 i got.
was that way till i got a new graphics card.
Both are desynced with the replay. Like 5-10 seconds ahead. Telling me what's gonna happen - not amused!
On January 17 2011 08:24 freeze_muc wrote: If whitera wins this too..it would have been a very succesful wekend for him. destroying europes elite in takes homecoming cup AND winning reddit.
Yeah it wouldn't really surprise me, the guy was on top of the foreigner bw scene for many many years. He's just always solid.
Yeah but so many thought that after he got married he would not have the focus/time/commitment to becoming the best again.. thank god he is proving us wrong :D
Day being ahead of the actual video feed is really rather frustrating, don't mind delayed comments but it's just offputting when the caster gets excited about something that hasn't actually happened xD
On January 17 2011 08:31 Asha` wrote: Day being ahead of the actual video feed is really rather frustrating, don't mind delayed comments but it's just offputting when the caster gets excited about something that hasn't actually happened xD
It is a little off putting, but it's not that bad =P
On January 17 2011 08:31 Asha` wrote: Day being ahead of the actual video feed is really rather frustrating, don't mind delayed comments but it's just offputting when the caster gets excited about something that hasn't actually happened xD
Completely agree. Ruins the excitement. Even just 5 seconds is a big deal IMO in SC2.
On January 17 2011 08:22 kuroshiro wrote: Does anyone have the idra quote about Morrow not being capable of winning a tournament using zerg? (after first IEM) I don't remember exactly what he said but he could be eating his words based on that performance :o
On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote: this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran
ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance
we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance
i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players...
youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
please switch. zerg has such a lack of players, "high skill level" or not. but also, prove everyone wrong. show us that zerg can win tournaments.
lol, a notable terran player switching to zerg. That'll be the day.
And if he did and he would win the same amount of tournaments what would that prove? Im betting the zerg whiners will still go "ooooooh but he is just one player with imbawtfpwnage 300000000 apm and skillz like god thats why he can win with Zerg...."
lol morrow wins a single prized tournament with zerg and ill never say the word balance again
Great tournaments this weekend, shame they are mostly being ruined by the bad streams -.- could hardly watch the homecoming one, but this one is getting better at least. Replay casting is kind of a turnoff though for various reasons. Wish Blizz would implement simultaneous replay watching into that new improved bnet of theirs.
On January 17 2011 08:35 Eggcake wrote: I muted the stream, it's just no fun if I know what's gonna happen 10s before it happens. As if I already know the result of a game.
On January 17 2011 08:35 Eggcake wrote: I muted the stream, it's just no fun if I know what's gonna happen 10s before it happens. As if I already know the result of a game.
It's actually more like 3~4 seconds but yeah it is getting obnoxious.
And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
+1
I get that maybe he's "making a funny" about the name, but it kinda stopped being amusing.
This is just horrible :/ Firstly, justin.tv servers have been lagging all day. But mostly - the streamer guys computer is just overloaded beyond acceptable. When he jumps on the minimap or a big fight happens, the video lags out so there is a big lag spike. But even worse, his computer actually lags so he drops behind the casters which desyncs the replay cast. These games are just not worth such lag.
It really feels like morrow should have won this game on xelnaga , why did he make that many lings/hydra against this colossus/void ray army ? I think he was ahead after defending the 4 gate.
On January 17 2011 08:22 kuroshiro wrote: Does anyone have the idra quote about Morrow not being capable of winning a tournament using zerg? (after first IEM) I don't remember exactly what he said but he could be eating his words based on that performance :o
On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote: this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran
ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance
we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance
i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players...
youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
please switch. zerg has such a lack of players, "high skill level" or not. but also, prove everyone wrong. show us that zerg can win tournaments.
lol, a notable terran player switching to zerg. That'll be the day.
And if he did and he would win the same amount of tournaments what would that prove? Im betting the zerg whiners will still go "ooooooh but he is just one player with imbawtfpwnage 300000000 apm and skillz like god thats why he can win with Zerg...."
lol morrow wins a single prized tournament with zerg and ill never say the word balance again
well Morrow is not likely to win this one though, it's not likely that any zerg would win a decently prized tourney in the next couple of days/weeks. But prove me wrong here. Btw i think Morrow already won a prized tournament with zerg, some time ago, not sure though
Here's a restream. Not sure if this is okay or not, but since others have asked, I just threw it up. PM me if there's any issues with the stream or if its laggy and i'll just take it down.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
Seconded, it really bugs me. I can understand when some of the "lesser" casters mess up, but given day9's history in BW and casting skills, he should be able to adjust.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
The difference though is IdrA left his ID as EGIdrA. Part of White-Ra's sponsorship deal (I believe) was to change his ID to contain the Duckload brand name. If that's what he has his ID as, that's how casters should refer to him. Plus wasn't his name being censored on battle.net? I remember some kind of fuss being brought up over the system trying to censor the word "White" in his name or something along those lines.
Besides, many casters refer to IdrA as "EGIdrA" in their casts at least a few times, I know I've heard Artosis and Tasteless say it during GSL matches.
please switch. zerg has such a lack of players, "high skill level" or not. but also, prove everyone wrong. show us that zerg can win tournaments.
lol, a notable terran player switching to zerg. That'll be the day.
And if he did and he would win the same amount of tournaments what would that prove? Im betting the zerg whiners will still go "ooooooh but he is just one player with imbawtfpwnage 300000000 apm and skillz like god thats why he can win with Zerg...."
lol morrow wins a single prized tournament with zerg and ill never say the word balance again
[/QUOTE]
This is the one! Even if morrow doesn't take this finals it's clear he's not so far off from tournament-winning standard.
I reckon idra chose his words wisely tho, he won't ever say 'balance' again but that doesn't mean he can't say 'IMbalance'
If there ever needed further proof that joint-replay viewing should be a PRIORITY for Blizzard, one need only see this. Absolutely heartbreaking :\ and totally outside of everyone's control.
On January 17 2011 08:40 HowardRoark wrote: How should Zerg tackle that ball of Void Colox? Is it doable on that map? It seemed Morrow had enough corruptors.
Corruptors are terrible against voidrays and stalkers deal a lot of damage to them as well. Ideally you'd have a mix of muta/corruptor with attack upgrades, and everything target firing the colossi first, then the void rays. Your ground army will mostly be spare minerals, i.e. roach/ling, with the lings moving in only once zealots and colossi numbers are down.
A couple fake pokes to make the toss waste forcefields is always good too, but that is actually a lot harder than it sounds.
I hope MorroW wins so next time IdrA starts talking about MorroW in generalized hyperbole there will be concrete evidence to contradict his statements.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
The difference though is IdrA left his ID as EGIdrA. Part of White-Ra's sponsorship deal (I believe) was to change his ID to contain the Duckload brand name. If that's what he has his ID as, that's how casters should refer to him. Plus wasn't his name being censored on battle.net? I remember some kind of fuss being brought up over the system trying to censor the word "White" in his name or something along those lines.
Besides, many casters refer to IdrA as "EGIdrA" in their casts at least a few times, I know I've heard Artosis and Tasteless say it during GSL matches.
EGIdra is still "Idra" or EGIdra. But not EG. Day9 calls WhiteRa/DuckloadRa just Duckload.
No Problem calling him DuckloadRa, because well - that's his name, but please not just Duckload.
On January 17 2011 08:44 nvs. wrote: I hope MorroW wins so next time IdrA starts talking about MorroW in generalized hyperbole there will be concrete evidence to contradict his statements.
Personally, I hope all of you would just shut up and enjoy the games, rather than crying about a stupid comment made by a biased person months ago.
On January 17 2011 08:44 nvs. wrote: I hope MorroW wins so next time IdrA starts talking about MorroW in generalized hyperbole there will be concrete evidence to contradict his statements.
there already is, when idra said that shit he was just mad because morrow beat him 3-1. its the equivalent of when someone calls you a noob after you beat them.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
Seconded, it really bugs me. I can understand when some of the "lesser" casters mess up, but given day9's history in BW and casting skills, he should be able to adjust.
Ofc day knows its his sponsor and ofc he finds that duckloadra combination as ridiculous as everyone does. he made fun of it in almost every dayly about whitera and thats why hes calling him duckload now too..
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
Seconded, it really bugs me. I can understand when some of the "lesser" casters mess up, but given day9's history in BW and casting skills, he should be able to adjust.
Ofc day knows its his sponsor and ofc he finds that duckloadra combination as ridiculous as everyone does. he made fun of it in almost every dayly about whitera and thats why hes calling him duckload now too..
He can do whatever he wants in his daylies, I don't complain there, I just don't find it very nice to call him just Duckload in other tournaments. Just call everyone from Team Liquid just "Liquid"...errr.....?
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
I thought you were trolling.. and then i saw this..
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
+1
I get that maybe he's "making a funny" about the name, but it kinda stopped being amusing.
White-Ra used his free name change to change is in game ID to Duckload-Ra .. Yes we all know it is White-Ra but his nickname is Duckload-Ra - you cannot deny it.. The IdrA comparison is only correct if IdrA changed his actual ID to EG
On January 17 2011 08:44 nvs. wrote: I hope MorroW wins so next time IdrA starts talking about MorroW in generalized hyperbole there will be concrete evidence to contradict his statements.
there already is, when idra said that shit he was just mad because morrow beat him 3-1. its the equivalent of when someone calls you a noob after you beat them.
Before the Cologne tournament IdrA said in the Artosis interview that he thought Morrow was a strong contender, being a good macro Terran.
On January 17 2011 08:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: If there ever needed further proof that joint-replay viewing should be a PRIORITY for Blizzard, one need only see this. Absolutely heartbreaking :\ and totally outside of everyone's control.
Indeed. Now, the question is, do we really want joint-replay viewing? It'll probably come with the LAN patch. Yeah.
No but really, taking a break after playing a few games by just going through replays together was great back in Brood War. I really hope it's somewhere in Blizzards to do list.
And in other news, this is an amazing final series.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
I thought you were trolling.. and then i saw this..
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
+1
I get that maybe he's "making a funny" about the name, but it kinda stopped being amusing.
White-Ra used his free name change to change is in game ID to Duckload-Ra .. Yes we all know it is White-Ra but his nickname is Duckload-Ra - you cannot deny it.. The IdrA comparison is only correct if IdrA changed his actual ID to EG
IdrA's ID is EGIdrA, which is completely analogous to DuckloadRa.
On January 17 2011 08:52 bkrow wrote: White-Ra used his free name change to change is in game ID to Duckload-Ra .. Yes we all know it is White-Ra but his nickname is Duckload-Ra - you cannot deny it.. The IdrA comparison is only correct if IdrA changed his actual ID to EG
Plus Duckload isn't a team. But he could be, wouldn't need anyone else!
On January 17 2011 08:44 nvs. wrote: I hope MorroW wins so next time IdrA starts talking about MorroW in generalized hyperbole there will be concrete evidence to contradict his statements.
there already is, when idra said that shit he was just mad because morrow beat him 3-1. its the equivalent of when someone calls you a noob after you beat them.
Before the Cologne tournament IdrA said in the Artosis interview that he thought Morrow was a strong contender, being a good macro Terran.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
I thought you were trolling.. and then i saw this..
On January 17 2011 08:40 n0ise wrote:
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
+1
I get that maybe he's "making a funny" about the name, but it kinda stopped being amusing.
White-Ra used his free name change to change is in game ID to Duckload-Ra .. Yes we all know it is White-Ra but his nickname is Duckload-Ra - you cannot deny it.. The IdrA comparison is only correct if IdrA changed his actual ID to EG
IdrA's ID is EGIdrA, which is completely analogous to DuckloadRa.
So you are saying day9 should be calling him "Ra" .. no.. that is ridiculous..
On January 17 2011 09:03 Yusername wrote: MorroW should've been ready for the void rays. Too bad.
Mh well, he was under heavy pressure, constantly defending his front door after losing his expansion. The stargate was being built during the last phase of the attack, so there was really not much time.
Edit: @bkrow I have no idea why this is so hard to understand. Either Ra or DuckloadRa, but definitely not Duckload, because that is not his nickname, it's the name of his sponsor. That's all I'm saying and I had no idea that such a huge discussion about this would follow, because I thought it's pretty obvious...
After his hydra den was done, why did Morrow reinforce with like 20 roaches instead of massing Hydras? He could have held that by making Hydras, White-Ra had nothing that's good vs Hydra.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
I think it's clever. Morrow has displayed some extremely strong late game zvp in the past week or so.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
I thought you were trolling.. and then i saw this..
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
+1
I get that maybe he's "making a funny" about the name, but it kinda stopped being amusing.
White-Ra used his free name change to change is in game ID to Duckload-Ra .. Yes we all know it is White-Ra but his nickname is Duckload-Ra - you cannot deny it.. The IdrA comparison is only correct if IdrA changed his actual ID to EG
Zero sense. So why doesn't he call Morrow, 'mouz' or even better, 'mousesports'? When Sen plays on US servers, do they call him "HURGLENURGLEBURGLE" cos that's the ID he plays under, or do they just call him Sen cos that's how everyone knows him? It's his decision what he wants to call him, I'm just stating that it definitely lost it's 'funny-ness' and it's kinda annoying.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
I thought you were trolling.. and then i saw this..
On January 17 2011 08:40 n0ise wrote:
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
+1
I get that maybe he's "making a funny" about the name, but it kinda stopped being amusing.
White-Ra used his free name change to change is in game ID to Duckload-Ra .. Yes we all know it is White-Ra but his nickname is Duckload-Ra - you cannot deny it.. The IdrA comparison is only correct if IdrA changed his actual ID to EG
IdrA's ID is EGIdrA, which is completely analogous to DuckloadRa.
So you are saying day9 should be calling him "Ra" .. no.. that is ridiculous..
Actually White was the name of his really really old clan, Ra is his nickname..
On January 17 2011 09:06 Shikyo wrote: After his hydra den was done, why did Morrow reinforce with like 20 roaches instead of massing Hydras? He could have held that by making Hydras, White-Ra had nothing that's good vs Hydra.
Thought the same thing. He crushed WhiteRas groundforces with the roaches - but hydras aren't that bad either vs. ground forces plus they could have cleaned up the void rays. What did I miss? :S
Edit: And by the way: it says "WhiteRa" on the score board in top...so....I just find it a bit annoying that he calls him DuckloadRa - but that would be okay, because that is his nickname in the game, I wouldn't complain. But just Duckload is too much, sorry.
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
I thought you were trolling.. and then i saw this..
On January 17 2011 08:40 n0ise wrote:
On January 17 2011 08:38 Eggcake wrote: And seriously, stop calling him Duckload, Duckload is his SPONSOR as far as I know. It's like calling Idra EG, only worse. If you want to ignore the "White", at least call him just Ra imho :>
+1
I get that maybe he's "making a funny" about the name, but it kinda stopped being amusing.
White-Ra used his free name change to change is in game ID to Duckload-Ra .. Yes we all know it is White-Ra but his nickname is Duckload-Ra - you cannot deny it.. The IdrA comparison is only correct if IdrA changed his actual ID to EG
IdrA's ID is EGIdrA, which is completely analogous to DuckloadRa.
So you are saying day9 should be calling him "Ra" .. no.. that is ridiculous..
No, I don't really care what Day[9] calls him. "Ra" alone does sound pretty silly. I was just disagreeing with the point that IdrA's name is a completely different situation. If I have to take a stand, then I think "WhiteRa" is probably the most appropriate thing to call him, since that's his traditional name. We've always referred IdrA by that name, and we don't change that when he joins a new team. We've always called WhiteRa by that name (as far as I know, it's certainly been that way for a while), and I don't see why we need to change that when he gets a new sponsor. I don't think it's a big deal, honestly, but I did want to point out that the IdrA comparison is valid.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
Yeah, Morrow played better, sad to see 4gates at this level game after game.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
How did Morrow outplay Whitera? I think he made too many drones for a 4gate and he really didn't need that 3rd queen either. Or if those early lings he made were drones instead, and then when he actually made drones he made lings/roach instead, he might have been fine.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
Yeah, Morrow played better, sad to see 4gates at this level game after game.
Thats like saying im sick of terrans making 2 rax. Deal with it
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
Yeah, Morrow played better, sad to see 4gates at this level game after game.
I knew White-Ra was going to do this. He'd stand no chance against MorroW's macro otherwise. He's a smart player.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
Yeah, Morrow played better, sad to see 4gates at this level game after game.
I knew White-Ra was going to do this. He'd stand no chance against MorroW's macro otherwise. He's a smart player.
Alltough he tried a 4-gate on Xelnaga it didn't work at all - and Morrow lost a more or less macro game.
Edit: THANK YOU Day9, "DuckloadRa" aka "WhiteRa". <3
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
How did Morrow outplay Whitera? I think he made too many drones for a 4gate and he really didn't need that 3rd queen either. Or if those early lings he made were drones instead, and then when he actually made drones he made lings/roach instead, he might have been fine.
well, dominated the beginning, picked off zealot and sentry, picked off pylons, but whitera back in his base. showed great defense, whitera played bad attacking up the ramp for no reason.
you really think whitera would win that game in cross spawns?
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
How did Morrow outplay Whitera? I think he made too many drones for a 4gate and he really didn't need that 3rd queen either. Or if those early lings he made were drones instead, and then when he actually made drones he made lings/roach instead, he might have been fine.
well, dominated the beginning, picked off zealot and sentry, picked off pylons, but whitera back in his base. showed great defense, whitera played bad attacking up the ramp for no reason.
you really think whitera would win that game in cross spawns?
Morrow clearly is the better player IMHO, but Ra have a great understanding of the game and a game sense out of this world. So, I guess he does what needs to be done to win.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
How did Morrow outplay Whitera? I think he made too many drones for a 4gate and he really didn't need that 3rd queen either. Or if those early lings he made were drones instead, and then when he actually made drones he made lings/roach instead, he might have been fine.
well, dominated the beginning, picked off zealot and sentry, picked off pylons, but whitera back in his base. showed great defense, whitera played bad attacking up the ramp for no reason.
you really think whitera would win that game in cross spawns?
But White-Ra was overwhelmingly ahead already when he attacked up the ramp, it's a bit silly to complain about his decisionmaking unless it outrights loses him the game then.
4 gate is a common strat if morrow was a better player then he shoulda know how to defend that specially when he knows that white-ra is close position Just like day9 said he shoulda place a few spine crawlers considering the position
On January 17 2011 08:19 Telcontar wrote: Morrow was just too far ahead after holding that crazy 5 gate rush off.
I really don't even get the 5gate rush, it's delayed so much it hits like 1 minute later than normal 4gate and you can't even support 5 gates on 1 base even with 80 probes mining(aka full saturation), so I have no idea why he does that, though I guess it's so that he can pressure more at once and it doesn't hurt that much when he moves back to reinforce(aka bad macro I guess), but overall I really think 4gate is far superior.
He cuts probe production.
I missed replying to this before, but whatever:
4gate pretty much always cuts probes, you still can't support 5 gates. You barely can support 4 gateways with 24 on minerals and 6 on gas and if he cuts before that, there's absolutely no way he can support 5.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
How did Morrow outplay Whitera? I think he made too many drones for a 4gate and he really didn't need that 3rd queen either. Or if those early lings he made were drones instead, and then when he actually made drones he made lings/roach instead, he might have been fine.
well, dominated the beginning, picked off zealot and sentry, picked off pylons, but whitera back in his base. showed great defense, whitera played bad attacking up the ramp for no reason.
you really think whitera would win that game in cross spawns?
If it was cross spawns Whitera would not have pushed with the zealot and sentry first of all, the game would have been completely different, so there's no point in speculating about that... And as I said the reason he picked off the zealot and sentry is because he made a pretty significant amount of lings early. Making those lings instead of drones hurts Zerg's economy, so it's kinda expected that he does at least some damage to the toss too.
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
How did Morrow outplay Whitera? I think he made too many drones for a 4gate and he really didn't need that 3rd queen either. Or if those early lings he made were drones instead, and then when he actually made drones he made lings/roach instead, he might have been fine.
well, dominated the beginning, picked off zealot and sentry, picked off pylons, but whitera back in his base. showed great defense, whitera played bad attacking up the ramp for no reason.
you really think whitera would win that game in cross spawns?
Morrow clearly is the better player IMHO, but Ra have a great understanding of the game and a game sense out of this world. So, I guess he does what needs to be done to win.
No. Morrow may have better mechanics and better multitasking. Perhaps. But what you mention in the next sentence is a part of being good at the game...
On January 17 2011 09:05 FrostShadow wrote: Wow, close spawn meta is ridiculous. MorroW clearly outplayed whitera, theres just no time to properly react.
Also, when did whitera decide he was going to just 4gate every game?
How did Morrow outplay Whitera? I think he made too many drones for a 4gate and he really didn't need that 3rd queen either. Or if those early lings he made were drones instead, and then when he actually made drones he made lings/roach instead, he might have been fine.
well, dominated the beginning, picked off zealot and sentry, picked off pylons, but whitera back in his base. showed great defense, whitera played bad attacking up the ramp for no reason.
you really think whitera would win that game in cross spawns?
If it was cross spawns Whitera would not have pushed with the zealot and sentry first of all, the game would have been completely different, so there's no point in speculating about that... And as I said the reason he picked off the zealot and sentry is because he made a pretty significant amount of lings early. Making those lings instead of drones hurts Zerg's economy, so it's kinda expected that he does at least some damage to the toss too.
Close spawn meta is clearly heavily favored for protoss. and guess what, whitera is 4gating again.
WhiteRa is playing the same thing, so it's a bit boring.
But you really can't say it's cheese. Morrow seems to be a bit greedy, making too many drones, not enough defense and relatively late roach warren. You just have to expect a 4-gate, especially after the 3rd in a row...
On January 17 2011 09:20 FrostShadow wrote: If I wanted to watch a protoss 1 base cheese, get outplayed and still win,
I would watch my own replays.
White-Ra doesn't care what you think though. He's a terminator. He plays to win. Always. Why win slowly when you know you can win fast? Don't hate the player, hate the game. Or in this case, more specifically the maps.
Btw to all the Zergs out there, on Blistering you always keep your army at your natural. If he moves into your main instead of nat you can bring it back in time perfectly fine and probably even get a nice arc. Don't risk getting FF'd off your nat.
I can definitely understand why White-Ra wants to play in a way that he known will win, but that doesn't make it any less boring to watch. Morrow is the only excitement in these matches with some great defense and he tries so damn hard to hang on. I don't want to see a Protoss that just goes "Well my 1-base mega ball of units can beat you, so that's all I'm gonna do." That game on Shakuras was the same thing, only Morrow managed to come back after the first attack and White-Ra seemed to fall to pieces.
On January 17 2011 09:22 KingRajesh wrote: Why is White-Ra such a highly regarded player?
4 and 5 gate every game FTW.
He doesn't always do that... In this case I think it's a simple case of knowing your opponent. Morrow is a macro monster. He loves them drones. White-Ra just abuses this.
Also, of course, the maps:
- Close position on metalopolis - Blistering Sands (did morrow actually pick this....................?)
On the Xel'Naga game white-ra won quite convincingly because morrow just made way too many zerglings for no apparent reason.
On January 17 2011 09:25 AJMcSpiffy wrote: I can definitely understand why White-Ra wants to play in a way that he known will win, but that doesn't make it any more boring to watch. Morrow is the only excitement in these matches with some great defense and he tries so damn hard to hang on. I don't want to see a Protoss that just goes "Well my 1-base mega ball of units can beat you, so that's all I'm gonna do." That game on Shakuras was the same thing, only Morrow managed to come back after the first attack and White-Ra seemed to fall to pieces.
Because he prepared accordingly. He had 4 or even 5 spine crawlers up. He didn't have a single one on Blistering Sands.
Why are you guys whining about Meta close position, white-ra 4 gate is probably the best decision Blistering Sand is the only map Zerg can go aggressive which is why he 5 gate before morrow econ kicks in and pump those roaches and idk why white-ra should play what morrow is most comfortable at I know it's not the most interesting game but white-ra is playing smart and getting the most of all advantage he can get And those whose saying White-ra can't macro, its all about map and spawn location His match against Machine clearly show his macro
On January 17 2011 09:22 KingRajesh wrote: Why is White-Ra such a highly regarded player?
4 and 5 gate every game FTW.
You know playing to win by abusing your race to the fullest doesnt mean you are a bad player, but rather the opposite. Ra is a great player.
But yeah these games once again reinforce the impression that PvZ is heavily P favored, especially on certain spawn positions. There is no zerg in europe that is able to beat the top protoss somewhat consistently.
Morrows control is damn impressive. Just wish he wasnt so greedy when it comes to the drones. He needs a couple of more units or some spines to defend the 4-5 gates of WhiteRa
Why are people complaining about Whtie-Ra's 4/5-gate pressure builds? They're not even all-in as seen in Game 2. He can easily transition out of them if he feels that he needs to. They're good, solid builds. IMO it's better than watching the nonstop cannon proxies in GSL.
On January 17 2011 09:25 AJMcSpiffy wrote: I can definitely understand why White-Ra wants to play in a way that he known will win, but that doesn't make it any more boring to watch. Morrow is the only excitement in these matches with some great defense and he tries so damn hard to hang on. I don't want to see a Protoss that just goes "Well my 1-base mega ball of units can beat you, so that's all I'm gonna do." That game on Shakuras was the same thing, only Morrow managed to come back after the first attack and White-Ra seemed to fall to pieces.
Because he prepared accordingly. He had 4 or even 5 spine crawlers up. He didn't have a single one on Blistering Sands.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
If Whitera can't beat Morrow in a macro game why would he play a macro game? This thinking makes no sense. You should either be disappointed that Morrow is uncapable of defending 4/5gate or disappointed that Blizzard made 4/5gate too hard to beat. Being disappointed at Whitera for doing the best move to win the game is not really an option...
On January 17 2011 09:25 AJMcSpiffy wrote: I can definitely understand why White-Ra wants to play in a way that he known will win, but that doesn't make it any more boring to watch. Morrow is the only excitement in these matches with some great defense and he tries so damn hard to hang on. I don't want to see a Protoss that just goes "Well my 1-base mega ball of units can beat you, so that's all I'm gonna do." That game on Shakuras was the same thing, only Morrow managed to come back after the first attack and White-Ra seemed to fall to pieces.
Because he prepared accordingly. He had 4 or even 5 spine crawlers up. He didn't have a single one on Blistering Sands.
On January 17 2011 09:25 AJMcSpiffy wrote: I can definitely understand why White-Ra wants to play in a way that he known will win, but that doesn't make it any more boring to watch. Morrow is the only excitement in these matches with some great defense and he tries so damn hard to hang on. I don't want to see a Protoss that just goes "Well my 1-base mega ball of units can beat you, so that's all I'm gonna do." That game on Shakuras was the same thing, only Morrow managed to come back after the first attack and White-Ra seemed to fall to pieces.
Because he prepared accordingly. He had 4 or even 5 spine crawlers up. He didn't have a single one on Blistering Sands.
that's because they are useless on blistering...
What I wanted to say: he didn't prepare at all, on Shakuras he did.
On January 17 2011 09:27 Azarkon wrote: Why are people complaining about Whtie-Ra's 4/5-gate pressure builds? They're not even all-in as seen in Game 2. He can easily transition out of them if he feels that he needs to. They're good, solid builds. IMO it's better than watching the nonstop cannon proxies in GSL.
I'd rather watch cannon contain into nexus expand because at least it's 2 basing.
Just watching 4 gate is so boring and lame. I know it's for money but it's not entertaining.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
Only because of MorroW's godly defense. Against a normal Zerg this would be boring.
4 gating should not work in all games, simply because morrow should be able to pull something off by now. If you've looked closely, White-Ra seems to be making non all in 4 gates, in the sense that each time he's been repelled he's immediately teched and expanded, after crippling economy. If morrow played somewhat differently he could make white-ra go for a quicker expo.
Basically, he needs to change his game plan, Ra is only playing according to what he sees in morrow.
Not saying that close position metalopolis doesn't suck for ZvP though.
On January 17 2011 09:22 cangiz wrote: if you pick blistering sands, you need to be prepared to defend a 4/5 gate.
Yep, on BS the attacker has the advantage, which sucks for the Zerg when facing a 4/5 gate. On the other hand, if P goes for a macro build, Zerg can just as unstoppable due to the back rocks.
Morrow was sort of unlucky on metal because of the close positions, though.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
And by Morrow being down 3-1, he's saying, I can't defend a 1-base push....
Well, the 5rax reapers were nerfed, and this probably will be patched aswell, the game is still young, so don't expect perfect balance just yet. I understand and respect Ra's decision, he plays to win and does it perfectly, and he should play to win.
This is Blizzard's problem, Ra and other pros should do what they can to win, just like Morrow did at Cologne.
Morrow loves his macro, obviously White-ra will (and should) abuse this. However, just like people don't like watching scv all-ins back to back from BitByBitPrime.WE they wont like watching 4/5 gate all-ins back to back from White-ra.
I don't get why Morrow went for blistering sands without preparing for this though
Morrow is amazing player but it doesnt look like he understands the concept of a Best-Of-x... White-ra had a gameplan for game 1 but was defeated because morrow made more drones than expected early. White-ra responded appropriately with 4gate/5gate play and it makes sense to stick with that until Morrow responds by making fewer drones early.
I think people who keep saying that these games are not entertaining aren't paying attention. srsly. Watch the freakin game instead of labelling '4-gate' and automatically deciding 'this game sucks'.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
its a tournament its anything to win. morrow understands this, did everyone forget how morrow 5 rax reaper the hell out of idra at IEM? which btw was a far more abusive build
On January 17 2011 09:22 KingRajesh wrote: Why is White-Ra such a highly regarded player?
4 and 5 gate every game FTW.
Because he is good maybe ? He can play epic macro games and win, but he is extremely aggressive and if he thinks he can win with massive early aggression he will try. That is actually why he is so good, he can do short or long games, also he is very creative in small details. Also people screeming cheese , there was no cheese done by White-ra. Also what Morrow expected when he picked Blistering Sands, Protoss has to be agressive from the start or die.
Anyway Morrow seems like great Zerg, and getting better as time goes, he played some great games in Take's tournament today.
Stop blaming White-ra for playing the game as it is in its current state.
If the races were reversed, I'm pretty sure Morrow would cut probes and 4-5-gate close positions metalopolis and blistering sands too. It's clearly the strongest build on those maps/positions, you'd be a fool not to use that.
The 4-Gates aren't all ins and are defendable. Morrow doesn't prepare accordingly, he drones too much. The 4-Gate is very hard to hold, but it seems Morrow doesn't even prepare for them. If he defended the 4-Gate (like on Shakuras or XelNaga) it turns into a good macro game. On Shakuras he stomped WhiteRa, on Xelnaga he lost. He just fails preparing for a proper 4-Gate defense.
It's not really cheese, it's just the best opening vs. Zerg at some positions.
I think many people getting upset probably feel that it doesn't seem as if the defender has the advantage in this game yet. And I agree there (depending on races and maps). And that's bad. If the aggressor wins it's supposed to be kiwikaki-awesomeness. Not just build them gates and laugh.
This series has been like rock, paper scissors so far. White-Ra continues to choose rock, while MorroW chooses scissors, expecting White-Ra to choose paper for once. But he never does.
Omg people flaming White-Ra seriously drop it; you are acting like this is the only time you have ever seen White-Ra play.. and if this is the only time you have seen him play then you have no room to comment.. He is incredibly proficient at dismantling his opponent; MorroW can't hold these 4/5gate plays so why should White-Ra play differently? Oh wait.. he is meant to let zerg macro to 4 bases because that is "entertaining" for you .. ><
Machine vs Kiwikaki saw Machine take game 1 and then Kiwikaki go blink stalkers 3 times in a row to destroy Machine; why? Because he saw a weakness and capitalised! This may be streamed but they are playing for money, not just for you.
Holding off early pressure without falling behind economically is the number one thing all zerg players need to master first. If morrow can't, do you really expect White-ra not to punish him for it? It's not like this is some sort of clearly broken 5 rax reaper build that gets nerfed shortly after. The 4/5 gate is kinda scout-able and requires economic sacrifices from the protoss. It's been established as part of the game and if morrow can't hold it off, white-ra should not be receiving criticism.
Edit: the poster above me hit the nail on the head.
On January 17 2011 09:25 AJMcSpiffy wrote: I can definitely understand why White-Ra wants to play in a way that he known will win, but that doesn't make it any less boring to watch. Morrow is the only excitement in these matches with some great defense and he tries so damn hard to hang on. I don't want to see a Protoss that just goes "Well my 1-base mega ball of units can beat you, so that's all I'm gonna do." That game on Shakuras was the same thing, only Morrow managed to come back after the first attack and White-Ra seemed to fall to pieces.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
You didn't seem to understand my point. As stated by everyone a billion times, Morrow loves his dronies and defending with the minimum amount of resources. You can a) Play at a disadvantage and wonder why you're kinda meh in a macro game (because, again, Morrow will invest a lot of his resources in early econ) or b) try to abuse on that.
Also, you do this four games in a row, you make the Zergy more leary to overdrone, then you go for a standard macro game in game 5 on LT. Standard BO5 high-level play.
There's so much depth to this game, it's a pity people just read it as "omg he's so bad my plat buddy can do this and beat morrow".
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
You didn't seem to understand my point. As stated by everyone a billion times, Morrow loves his dronies and defending with the minimum amount of resources. You can a) Play at a disadvantage and wonder why you're kinda meh in a macro game (because, again, Morrow will invest a lot of his resources in early econ) or b) try to abuse on that.
Also, you do this four games in a row, you make the Zergy more leary to overdrone, then you go for a standard macro game in game 5 on LT. Standard BO5 high-level play.
There's so much depth to this game, it's a pity people just read it as "omg he's so bad my plat buddy can do this and beat morrow".
I understand your point perfectly, I'm just stating why people are upset at Morrow. I understand its a tournament, and its very late for White Ra, I'm okay with him doing this.
But I can still be dissapointed in the play itself of White Ra. For example, theres a difference between capitalizing on knowing Morrow loves to drone hard and going 5 gate every game, then not expanding even when you kill his expo and keep trying to kill him.
There's a difference between being agressive and going all in. And just to clear things up, its not that 4 gate(and for the record White ra was going 5 gate) is all in, its not. It's that White Ra MADE it all in.
But again, I 100% understand your view, I'm just helping say why I myself am dissapointed in his play.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Your logic seems kind of faulty, he is not saying I cannot win macro, he is saying I will have lower chance and that is big difference.
Sorry if I exaggerated somewhat. I do that when I'm getting somewhat passionate. My point is: White ra feels, or at least this is showing, that he can't compete in a macro game WELL with Morrow. Not that he can't at all.
I love how white-ra denies all muta harass while denying morrow's third at the same time. See how a great player has different gameplans and is able to make good decisions according to what he sees. This is what morrow needs to be able to beat 3 4-gates in a row.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
You didn't seem to understand my point. As stated by everyone a billion times, Morrow loves his dronies and defending with the minimum amount of resources. You can a) Play at a disadvantage and wonder why you're kinda meh in a macro game (because, again, Morrow will invest a lot of his resources in early econ) or b) try to abuse on that.
Also, you do this four games in a row, you make the Zergy more leary to overdrone, then you go for a standard macro game in game 5 on LT. Standard BO5 high-level play.
There's so much depth to this game, it's a pity people just read it as "omg he's so bad my plat buddy can do this and beat morrow".
I understand your point perfectly, I'm just stating why people are upset at Morrow. I understand its a tournament, and its very late for White Ra, I'm okay with him doing this.
But I can still be dissapointed in the play itself of White Ra. For example, theres a difference between capitalizing on knowing Morrow loves to drone hard and going 5 gate every game, then not expanding even when you kill his expo and keep trying to kill him.
There's a difference between being agressive and going all in. And just to clear things up, its not that 4 gate(and for the record White ra was going 5 gate) is all in, its not. It's that White Ra MADE it all in.
But again, I 100% understand your view, I'm just helping say why I myself am dissapointed in his play.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Your logic seems kind of faulty, he is not saying I cannot win macro, he is saying I will have lower chance and that is big difference.
Sorry if I exaggerated somewhat. I do that when I'm getting somewhat passionate. My point is: White ra feels, or at least this is showing, that he can't compete in a macro game WELL with Morrow. Not that he can't at all.
No. It only means he does this because he feels/knows he can win faster and easier this way. There's a difference.
There, he owned Morrow in a macrogame. Smart of him to go all out macro after having four gated all the previous games, Morrow seemed really nervous and planted tons of spines this game.
I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
Did they remove ultras from the game? Seriously I cannot undestand this corruptor hydra roach ball of fire that everyone is lobbing at protoss armies of death.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
You didn't seem to understand my point. As stated by everyone a billion times, Morrow loves his dronies and defending with the minimum amount of resources. You can a) Play at a disadvantage and wonder why you're kinda meh in a macro game (because, again, Morrow will invest a lot of his resources in early econ) or b) try to abuse on that.
Also, you do this four games in a row, you make the Zergy more leary to overdrone, then you go for a standard macro game in game 5 on LT. Standard BO5 high-level play.
There's so much depth to this game, it's a pity people just read it as "omg he's so bad my plat buddy can do this and beat morrow".
I understand your point perfectly, I'm just stating why people are upset at Morrow. I understand its a tournament, and its very late for White Ra, I'm okay with him doing this.
But I can still be dissapointed in the play itself of White Ra. For example, theres a difference between capitalizing on knowing Morrow loves to drone hard and going 5 gate every game, then not expanding even when you kill his expo and keep trying to kill him.
There's a difference between being agressive and going all in. And just to clear things up, its not that 4 gate(and for the record White ra was going 5 gate) is all in, its not. It's that White Ra MADE it all in.
But again, I 100% understand your view, I'm just helping say why I myself am dissapointed in his play.
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Your logic seems kind of faulty, he is not saying I cannot win macro, he is saying I will have lower chance and that is big difference.
Sorry if I exaggerated somewhat. I do that when I'm getting somewhat passionate. My point is: White ra feels, or at least this is showing, that he can't compete in a macro game WELL with Morrow. Not that he can't at all.
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
You couldn't expect anything different in a PvP, dood. *sigh*
On January 17 2011 09:45 TheCrow wrote: There, he owned Morrow in a macrogame. Smart of him to go all out macro after having four gated all the previous games, Morrow seemed really nervous and planted tons of spines this game.
No he wasn't nervous....... If you want to go mutalisk without producing lots of lings you need to build spine crawlers. Also, you can use them later. Please stop blabbering out whatever appears in your head as a plausible reason.
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
What?
The homestory was like PvP only in the end, what do you expect?
and that last game against morrow was insane by whitera
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
I dont get these posts. Is it Ra's fault that toss is that strong against zerg? Should he play bad strats to make up for that?
But tbh we can soon start to speculate which changes will come to balance this matchup.
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
sigh DT is a cheese??!! Do you even know what cheese is??? Good players, tournament and casters Great event
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
dt is NEVER cheese wtf unless u play in pvp. Stop giving wood league whines please. Dt's alone are never supposed to win u a game unless ur opponent has a SUPER SUPER SUPER late lair or is just a dumbass terran who constantly misses scans. DTs are a harrass/map control/let u expand freely type unit.
@FrostShadow I bet my left nut that you didn't see the Homestory finals. He was defending more 4-gates than doing pushes. He dominated the tournament, he killed Morrow in two macro games, and won in 3 4-/5-Gates where Morrow didn't react accordingly due to non-existent scouting or too much droning.
The DTs really gave White-Ra the win in the last game. His reaction to get DT was so spot on. Morrow was so far behind after losing that third, the game was practically over.
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
He doesnt exactly play run of the mill style in my opinion. WhiteRa chose DT's after he scouted the far away expo from MorroW. It was reaction play and the right decision to harass with since mutas were out.
On January 17 2011 09:45 TheCrow wrote: There, he owned Morrow in a macrogame. Smart of him to go all out macro after having four gated all the previous games, Morrow seemed really nervous and planted tons of spines this game.
That's nothing to do with nervousness, it's part of the lost temple muta build. If he went for roach instead, he wouldn't have made those spine crawlers.
On January 17 2011 09:46 PlosionCornu wrote: Did they remove ultras from the game? Seriously I cannot undestand this corruptor hydra roach ball of fire that everyone is lobbing at protoss armies of death.
I'm dead serious,please enlighten me.
with colossus/blink stalkers you can abuse cliff and micro against ultras as long as you want
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
You didn't seem to understand my point. As stated by everyone a billion times, Morrow loves his dronies and defending with the minimum amount of resources. You can a) Play at a disadvantage and wonder why you're kinda meh in a macro game (because, again, Morrow will invest a lot of his resources in early econ) or b) try to abuse on that.
Also, you do this four games in a row, you make the Zergy more leary to overdrone, then you go for a standard macro game in game 5 on LT. Standard BO5 high-level play.
There's so much depth to this game, it's a pity people just read it as "omg he's so bad my plat buddy can do this and beat morrow".
I understand your point perfectly, I'm just stating why people are upset at Morrow. I understand its a tournament, and its very late for White Ra, I'm okay with him doing this.
But I can still be dissapointed in the play itself of White Ra. For example, theres a difference between capitalizing on knowing Morrow loves to drone hard and going 5 gate every game, then not expanding even when you kill his expo and keep trying to kill him.
There's a difference between being agressive and going all in. And just to clear things up, its not that 4 gate(and for the record White ra was going 5 gate) is all in, its not. It's that White Ra MADE it all in.
But again, I 100% understand your view, I'm just helping say why I myself am dissapointed in his play.
I hope for a better game 5
On January 17 2011 09:36 mcc wrote:
On January 17 2011 09:25 Pandain wrote:
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Your logic seems kind of faulty, he is not saying I cannot win macro, he is saying I will have lower chance and that is big difference.
Sorry if I exaggerated somewhat. I do that when I'm getting somewhat passionate. My point is: White ra feels, or at least this is showing, that he can't compete in a macro game WELL with Morrow. Not that he can't at all.
Last game seems to contradict you
I have full faith in White Ra's macro abilities, that is why I'm dissapointed in why he 5 gated 4/5 games.
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
I dont get these posts. Is it Ra's fault that toss is that strong against zerg? Should he play bad strats to make up for that?
But tbh we can soon start to speculate which changes will come to balance this matchup.
Wow another OP discussion starting why do we always hear this if someone win a tournament Please stop -.-
Well, the final series was a bit too one sided to be truly the most epic show of the ages, but a nice watch nevertheless. Both White-Ra and Morrow have been absolutely amazing. As was the casting! :D
The cool thing about WhiteRa is, that he is so friggin' unpredictable and dangerous. Yeah, he can cheese you, but afterwards he roflstomps you in a huge macrogame. He's a beast!
All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
On January 17 2011 09:46 PlosionCornu wrote: Did they remove ultras from the game? Seriously I cannot undestand this corruptor hydra roach ball of fire that everyone is lobbing at protoss armies of death.
I'm dead serious,please enlighten me.
He was about 2 bases away from being able to get Ultras. Thank you, come again.
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
You know in Take's tournament it was PvP which is highly one-basing matchup and his opponents did the same. Also are you saying Protoss should not use DTs, people like you are so funny. I love macro games as probably everyone, but well executed short games are also great. Porrly executed one base all ins that win games are bad.
Eh you people still complaining about the gates did see that game right? Man can execute a lot of shit. He tends to be aggressive though, Morrow pulled some nice defenses, but perhaps should have been a bit more prepared. ZvP ain't easy however and he did get to the finals in an awesome way, so good job.
And well played by mister Ra. One more for the hattrick :D
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
You didn't seem to understand my point. As stated by everyone a billion times, Morrow loves his dronies and defending with the minimum amount of resources. You can a) Play at a disadvantage and wonder why you're kinda meh in a macro game (because, again, Morrow will invest a lot of his resources in early econ) or b) try to abuse on that.
Also, you do this four games in a row, you make the Zergy more leary to overdrone, then you go for a standard macro game in game 5 on LT. Standard BO5 high-level play.
There's so much depth to this game, it's a pity people just read it as "omg he's so bad my plat buddy can do this and beat morrow".
I understand your point perfectly, I'm just stating why people are upset at Morrow. I understand its a tournament, and its very late for White Ra, I'm okay with him doing this.
But I can still be dissapointed in the play itself of White Ra. For example, theres a difference between capitalizing on knowing Morrow loves to drone hard and going 5 gate every game, then not expanding even when you kill his expo and keep trying to kill him.
There's a difference between being agressive and going all in. And just to clear things up, its not that 4 gate(and for the record White ra was going 5 gate) is all in, its not. It's that White Ra MADE it all in.
But again, I 100% understand your view, I'm just helping say why I myself am dissapointed in his play.
I hope for a better game 5
On January 17 2011 09:36 mcc wrote:
On January 17 2011 09:25 Pandain wrote:
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Your logic seems kind of faulty, he is not saying I cannot win macro, he is saying I will have lower chance and that is big difference.
Sorry if I exaggerated somewhat. I do that when I'm getting somewhat passionate. My point is: White ra feels, or at least this is showing, that he can't compete in a macro game WELL with Morrow. Not that he can't at all.
Last game seems to contradict you
Exactly. All these people who are whining about White-ra cant macro etc.. can watch the 5th game. Just a solid straight up well executed macro game.
White-ra is on fire today. Wouldnt be surprised if he takes the Warzone cup as well..
Homestory 1st, Screddit 1st and now Warzone(probably!)..not bad for a days work.
No, he is a phenomenal player with an extremely agressive playstyle while fully capable of playing macro as well.
He used the tactics that he could win with. 1200 bucks on the line and dont for one minute underestimate Morrow. In White-Ra's position there's no way I would put on a show either. He picked the strongest builds and executed them well.
A few months ago, around the time he got married he looked like he was out of the game. He was too old and his prime was over. Guess he proved us wrong. His play is so solid and with the current state of protoss I think he will dominate a lot of tournaments in the close future.
On January 17 2011 09:31 kuroshiro wrote: I think people who keep saying that these games are not entertaining aren't paying attention. srsly. Watch the freakin game instead of labelling '4-gate' and automatically deciding 'this game sucks'.
Just my opinion though.
Obviously that's your own opinion.
Some people don't find constant 4-gating entertaining. We can see thousands of 4 gating protoss games whenever we want, however we can't see high level macro "up to 6 bases action action" games.
4 gates make me yawn. And yes, I watched the game. That's the problem...
Yeahhh go White Ra! =D Awesome series and awesome tournament. Everything went buttery smooth, besides MorroW's internet hiccup last week, but that was outside of Reddit's control.
...oh, and don't forget that highlight video. Gave me chills.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
On January 17 2011 09:51 DarkRise wrote: the problem morrow have is not having hive tech, he was in 4 base and max to top that off but no infestation pit no ultras or even broodlords
You've got to be kidding me. He lost his third base and had to rebuild. You DO understand how far back that sets him? If not, then don't post.
On January 17 2011 09:31 kuroshiro wrote: I think people who keep saying that these games are not entertaining aren't paying attention. srsly. Watch the freakin game instead of labelling '4-gate' and automatically deciding 'this game sucks'.
Just my opinion though.
Obviously that's your own opinion.
Some people don't find constant 4-gating entertaining. We can see thousands of 4 gating protoss games whenever we want, however we can't see high level macro "up to 6 bases action action" games.
4 gates make me yawn. And yes, I watched the game. That's the problem...
So? Write a letter to Blizzard then if you feel that strongly about the issue.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
Having not even started to build the roach warren when whitera is building his pylon in front of morrows natural is over greedy or whatever you wanna call it.
On January 17 2011 09:46 PlosionCornu wrote: Did they remove ultras from the game? Seriously I cannot undestand this corruptor hydra roach ball of fire that everyone is lobbing at protoss armies of death.
I'm dead serious,please enlighten me.
with colossus/blink stalkers you can abuse cliff and micro against ultras as long as you want
It's not like broodlords fare that much better against blink stalkers,or roaches/hydras against force fields& colossi...
On January 17 2011 09:45 TheCrow wrote: There, he owned Morrow in a macrogame. Smart of him to go all out macro after having four gated all the previous games, Morrow seemed really nervous and planted tons of spines this game.
Good play from White-Ra. Though Morrow wasn't exactly nervous, he just planned to go mass muta, and you do need a ton of sunkens to act as a buffer against P counter attacks (while the mutas are away). The DTs were a great play which killed and ultimately delayed the 3rd of Morrow, you can bet he will be getting detectors in future games at his 3rd.
White-Ra showing adaptability and great decision making. Even when 4/5 gating he expanded and teched behind it when defended, and dealt lethal blows afterwards. All this QQ about Ra's 4-gating only expresses Morrow's inability to react accordingly. If you lose 3 games in a row to 4-gate pressure you're doing something wrong.
Afterwards, when morrow set a different type of game, White-Ra denied all harassment while at the same time applying a deathblow when killing that 3rd. He played great, and for those who doubt, he's more than capable of winning in macro games.
On January 17 2011 09:51 DarkRise wrote: the problem morrow have is not having hive tech, he was in 4 base and max to top that off but no infestation pit no ultras or even broodlords
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
Seriously, stop with the imba bullshit in tournament threads. Its so annoying and ruins the mood.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
Seriously, stop with the imba bullshit in tournament threads. Its so annoying and ruins the mood.
It's not "imba bullshit". You need to learn to read better. I play protoss I may add.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
On January 17 2011 09:51 DarkRise wrote: the problem morrow have is not having hive tech, he was in 4 base and max to top that off but no infestation pit no ultras or even broodlords
Yeah that 2 base ultra sure is deadly.
I think he was on about 4/5 at the time the attack came,and wasted a lot of time at 200/200...
On January 17 2011 09:57 ParasitJonte wrote: It's not "imba bullshit". You need to learn to read better. I play protoss I may add.
It's still complaining about imbalance and no one wants that. This isn't the place or time for it.
No it's not. And that's an important distinction to make. A game can be perfectly balanced but so boring or weird or stupid that no one wants to play it. PvZ close positions on metalopolis is pretty close to that...
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
no lings no spines and toss attacks after 30 minute mark. Then its ok for you to attack.
On January 17 2011 09:46 FrostShadow wrote: I used to like whitera, but watching him play today in homestory and this shows he really just does run of the mill cheesy shit. 4-5 gate or dt rush every game of both finals. wasted 2+ hours watching it today :/ , thats totally my mistake though.
He doesnt exactly play run of the mill style in my opinion. WhiteRa chose DT's after he scouted the far away expo from MorroW. It was reaction play and the right decision to harass with since mutas were out.
That's it, White-Ra sometimes does strange micro mistakes, but his decision making is one of the best ever.
On January 17 2011 09:51 DarkRise wrote: the problem morrow have is not having hive tech, he was in 4 base and max to top that off but no infestation pit no ultras or even broodlords
Yeah that 2 base ultra sure is deadly.
I think he was on about 4/5 at the time the attack came,and wasted a lot of time at 200/200...
Expansions take time to kick in. His mining had been interrupted and he had been set back for quite some time. At that point he needed to build units to fend off potential attacks. He needed to survive for 2-3 minutes more; then his economy would've kicked in for real. But Ra never gave him the chance.
You can't just say: "ah he had 3-4 bases, should be fine" without taking the entire game into consideration. All factors present.
On January 17 2011 09:31 kuroshiro wrote: I think people who keep saying that these games are not entertaining aren't paying attention. srsly. Watch the freakin game instead of labelling '4-gate' and automatically deciding 'this game sucks'.
Just my opinion though.
Obviously that's your own opinion.
Some people don't find constant 4-gating entertaining. We can see thousands of 4 gating protoss games whenever we want, however we can't see high level macro "up to 6 bases action action" games.
4 gates make me yawn. And yes, I watched the game. That's the problem...
So? Write a letter to Blizzard then if you feel that strongly about the issue.
There's no issue.
Some people don't find 4 gates entertaining. Period.
Nobody cares if they're strong/weak, easy/hard, we find them boring. That's all we were saying. If you love watching protoss 4 gate every game, that's all fine. Good for you.
Don't know why you're defending the guy who basically said people have no right to find 4 gates boring...
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Cool logic. So the Zerg is free to overdrone, cos if the opponent does aggressive play, he's lame/etc/can't win in a macro game.
Anyway. Songname? ^____^
Except White Ra all ined. I mean, even a 4 gate isn't all in(which is sort of sad, but whatever.)
Even when he killed the hatch, he didn't expand. On metalopolis, he had such a lead, yet instead of expanding made a stargate. Like just very very late he did make a nexus, but just in how late it was shows it was an all in.
If he didn't kill Morrow's expo, he would've lost. Plain and simple. Same thing as you saw in game 1, in which White ra did 5 gate, failed, and lost to Morrow in the late game.
There's a difference between droning too hard and not being able to compete in a macro game. There's a HUGE differense skill wise. One is just a simple, easy mistake. The other is what defines Starcraft 2.
You didn't seem to understand my point. As stated by everyone a billion times, Morrow loves his dronies and defending with the minimum amount of resources. You can a) Play at a disadvantage and wonder why you're kinda meh in a macro game (because, again, Morrow will invest a lot of his resources in early econ) or b) try to abuse on that.
Also, you do this four games in a row, you make the Zergy more leary to overdrone, then you go for a standard macro game in game 5 on LT. Standard BO5 high-level play.
There's so much depth to this game, it's a pity people just read it as "omg he's so bad my plat buddy can do this and beat morrow".
I understand your point perfectly, I'm just stating why people are upset at Morrow. I understand its a tournament, and its very late for White Ra, I'm okay with him doing this.
But I can still be dissapointed in the play itself of White Ra. For example, theres a difference between capitalizing on knowing Morrow loves to drone hard and going 5 gate every game, then not expanding even when you kill his expo and keep trying to kill him.
There's a difference between being agressive and going all in. And just to clear things up, its not that 4 gate(and for the record White ra was going 5 gate) is all in, its not. It's that White Ra MADE it all in.
But again, I 100% understand your view, I'm just helping say why I myself am dissapointed in his play.
I hope for a better game 5
On January 17 2011 09:36 mcc wrote:
On January 17 2011 09:25 Pandain wrote:
On January 17 2011 09:23 .Theory wrote: What's with the 4gate QQ? They're still great games.
How are these great games? They're only great(somewhat, SOMEWHAT) because Morrow is such a beast at defense.
And for people saying "Oh, he's playing to win", that doesn't mean people can't be dissapointed in him.
White Ra is basically saying, by 5 gating 3 times in a row(after getting totally dominated in a macro game): "I can't win vs Morrow in a macro game."
And that's what makes me, along with other people in this thread, dissapointed with White ra and his play this series.
Your logic seems kind of faulty, he is not saying I cannot win macro, he is saying I will have lower chance and that is big difference.
Sorry if I exaggerated somewhat. I do that when I'm getting somewhat passionate. My point is: White ra feels, or at least this is showing, that he can't compete in a macro game WELL with Morrow. Not that he can't at all.
Last game seems to contradict you
I have full faith in White Ra's macro abilities, that is why I'm dissapointed in why he 5 gated 4/5 games.
Mind games and trying to be unpredictible and of course tailoring strategy according to map and opponent.
Very well played by White Ra, I only saw the last 3 games, but he made several extremely good tactical decisions against marrow. The switch to voids in game 3 was well timed. The switch over to the natural at the last second of breaking the rocks was a decisive move on game 4. And The last game was an artful macro game from White Ra where he responded beautifully to what Marrow was doing.
Marrow's play was fantastic as well, but White Ra was on fire.
On January 17 2011 09:31 kuroshiro wrote: I think people who keep saying that these games are not entertaining aren't paying attention. srsly. Watch the freakin game instead of labelling '4-gate' and automatically deciding 'this game sucks'.
Just my opinion though.
Obviously that's your own opinion.
Some people don't find constant 4-gating entertaining. We can see thousands of 4 gating protoss games whenever we want, however we can't see high level macro "up to 6 bases action action" games.
4 gates make me yawn. And yes, I watched the game. That's the problem...
So? Write a letter to Blizzard then if you feel that strongly about the issue.
There's no issue.
Some people don't find 4 gates entertaining. Period.
Nobody cares if they're strong/weak, easy/hard, we find them boring. That's all we were saying. If you love watching protoss 4 gate every game, that's all fine. Good for you.
Don't know why you're defending the guy who basically said people have no right to find 4 gates boring...
I'm not defending him really. I just don't get why you'd (not you specifically but everyone complaining about White-Ra's play) bother posting in a Starcraft 2 pro tournament thread that watching pro Starcraft 2 is boring. What about MC 4gating Jinro? Was that boring?
On January 17 2011 09:31 kuroshiro wrote: I think people who keep saying that these games are not entertaining aren't paying attention. srsly. Watch the freakin game instead of labelling '4-gate' and automatically deciding 'this game sucks'.
Just my opinion though.
Obviously that's your own opinion.
Some people don't find constant 4-gating entertaining. We can see thousands of 4 gating protoss games whenever we want, however we can't see high level macro "up to 6 bases action action" games.
4 gates make me yawn. And yes, I watched the game. That's the problem...
So? Write a letter to Blizzard then if you feel that strongly about the issue.
There's no issue.
Some people don't find 4 gates entertaining. Period.
Nobody cares if they're strong/weak, easy/hard, we find them boring. That's all we were saying. If you love watching protoss 4 gate every game, that's all fine. Good for you.
Don't know why you're defending the guy who basically said people have no right to find 4 gates boring...
Actually, they don't have to be boring if they get defended properly. Like Shakuras or Xelnaga. Those were 4-/5- Gate attacks.
I think the 4-gating and aggressive style by White-Ra was a specific counter to MorroW's play. MorroW's Zerg is super super greedy, and if you let him go without pressure or aggression he will constantly drone until he out produces the shit out of you. 4-gating against him, or pressuring him in general, to punish him for his greedy play is just plain smart.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". It's hard to predict the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to die a slow painful death. If he made 10 lings there instead of 5 drones the outcome would have been more or less the same, but if your not feeling any pressure it would be futile to make them if they aren't going to be put to use.
Blistering game was cookie-cutter, mistake by Morrow to not keep an eye on White-Ra's army, and knowing that he made a brilliant switch to take the free expo. was GG after that.
VODs are expected to go up starting late tomorrow, and they should all be up on screddit.blip.tv by the end of Tuesday, if all things go well. If there are problems with specific VODs, please PM me and I'll try to get it sorted out ASAP.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". Do you know how Zerg actually has to play? It's not greedy, it's regular play. You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to lose a slow painful death.
After 3 games with early 4-5 gate aggression morrow should have been able to change his game plan accordingly, expecting early aggression. His decision making wasn't the best in today's match-
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". Do you know how Zerg actually has to play? It's not greedy, it's regular play. You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to lose a slow painful death.
1. You can be greedy as a zerg. Zerg's regular play is to get as much drones as possible with just the right amount of defenses. But Morrow didn't play like that, he made too many drones, so he was too greedy.
" You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you."
WTF, of course you can't predict, but you can scout or prepare for the worst. Morrow did neither (for example on Blistering). Everything else is a risky all-in play. Actually it isn't WhiteRa who did the allins, it was Morrow, when he was just assuming WhiteRa to not attack him. That's not how you should play...
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". Do you know how Zerg actually has to play? It's not greedy, it's regular play. You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to lose a slow painful death.
1. You can be greedy as a zerg. Zerg's regular play is to get as much drones as possible with just the right amount of defenses. But Morrow didn't play like that, he made too many drones, so he was too greedy.
" You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you."
WTF, of course you can't predict, but you can scout or prepare for the worst. Morrow did neither (for example on Blistering).
I'll disagree on that. White-Ra was distinctively denying scouting, Morrow had both Xel'Naga towers under his possession. You could just as well assume 3-gate Expo, 3 gate-Stargate or 3G-Robo. All are just as viable but White-Ra chose 5gate. To guess what the opponent is going to do this game because of what he did previous game isn't a plan. Just because that's what happened this time doesn't mean you can go around saying that. People mix in strategies all the time to confuse their opponents.
1) How was he too greedy? The second White-ra marched to his front door he realized Morrow had an impressive defense so he backed up. When they actually engaged Morrow defended, but if he had not lost that expansion he would have an additional Hatch worth of production and would have rolled over White-Ra. That was his critical mistake which lost him the game, not being overly greedy.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". Do you know how Zerg actually has to play? It's not greedy, it's regular play. You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to lose a slow painful death.
After 3 games with early 4-5 gate aggression morrow should have been able to change his game plan accordingly, expecting early aggression. His decision making wasn't the best in today's match-
His decision making was exactly as good as what got him there in the first place. Expecting aggression because WhiteRa just did it last game is generally not solid play. Morrow will learn from his mistakes and come back stronger next time. There are so many subtle things to learn in every zerg matchup, he obviously doesn't know them all yet.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". Do you know how Zerg actually has to play? It's not greedy, it's regular play. You can't PREDICT the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to lose a slow painful death.
After 3 games with early 4-5 gate aggression morrow should have been able to change his game plan accordingly, expecting early aggression. His decision making wasn't the best in today's match-
His decision making was exactly as good as what got him there in the first place. Expecting aggression because WhiteRa just did it last game is generally not solid play. Morrow will learn from his mistakes and come back stronger next time. There are so many subtle things to learn in every zerg matchup, he obviously doesn't know them all yet.
He did it in 3 matches in a row, that clearly shows a trend, in that white-ra chose early aggression to counter morrow's early drone powering, he probably watched a ton of his games and decided that was the weakness to exploit, what I question about morrow's decision making is that in a bo7 you can actually afford to lose a game or 2 to such a strategy, it allows you to change your game plan in reaction to what you see, in this case, morrow didn't, he should have played it safer in games 3 and 4.
And yes, I agree he will improve, he's obviously a very good player, he just looked outsmarted by Ra today, he's not played zerg for that long and he's already a top one, so he's got tons of space to improve his game. The thing is, 4-gate is by no means imbalanced, particularly in a bo7 setting, and all this QQing makes it seem so, morrow just made a few wrong decisions which cost him the matches, they're small and subtle mistakes that make a world of difference. He also just got unlucky with close position metalopolis, which just plain sucks for zerg.
On January 17 2011 10:09 vrok wrote: I'm not defending him really. I just don't get why you'd (not you specifically but everyone complaining about White-Ra's play) bother posting in a Starcraft 2 pro tournament thread that watching pro Starcraft 2 is boring. What about MC 4gating Jinro? Was that boring?
Watching pros play like pros is awesome, not every game will be awesome but we watch hoping for some epic games. And MC 4 gating Jinro only got good after he failed/stopped 4 gating.
On January 17 2011 10:10 Eggcake wrote:
Actually, they don't have to be boring if they get defended properly. Like Shakuras or Xelnaga. Those were 4-/5- Gate attacks.
Failed 4 gates can be great games, because that'll lead into expansions and a normal, straight up game. It's the games ended by 1 base, 4 gate that are lame. Just make me sigh and wish i had done something else during that time. lol
White-Ra can be the best protoss/best 4 gater ever, I'll still dislike the opening because I've seen it way, way too often. I'm not saying him 4 gating was bad or good, but I disliked it. That's it. ^^
On January 17 2011 10:12 FearGorm wrote: Thanks everyone for watching the SCReddit Invitational! Post-event wrap-up, including voting for best game, coming soon!
Thank YOU and everybody else involved for organizing such an awesome event! Was a blast, really really looking forward to any future events.
Regarding the best game, it's really a definition battle. "Best Game" would be Kiwi vs MorroW on metal, but the amazing maneuver on Xel'Naga should really get some love as well
I feel like many of you simplify things a bit too far when you go pointing on singular aspects of morrows game being the root of his losses today. Morrow is a very good player and there are just so many different variables in starcraft, bo psychology being one of them.
Anyway we see stuff like this happening all the time, be it at the very highest level in korea or in practically every foreigner tournament. I think everyone is quite aware of the fact that sc2 is in a fairly immature state and has a long way to go before we see something even in the vicinity of the final product. Stuff like this is going to keep happening for a long time and I think its easier to adapt an attitude of "whatever brings you victories is, by definition, good play."
Boxer freaking bunker rushed yellow 3 times in a row in the 2004 OSL and hardly anyone uttered a word. He was just a guy playing to his strengths, and thanks to that he won a large sum of money.
As for this thread, the imbalance cries and such. In a way I don't see anything wrong with that either. Even the white-ra/morrow bashing. Take a look at any popular sport or esport in the history of civilisation and you'll see clear as daylight that good sport evokes emotion. What the hell would sc2 be if it didn't? People don't say "oh well my favourite just got 5 gated 3 times in a row and lost but who cares" just like a soccer fan wouldn't be all fine and dandy with his national team losing due to hyper-defensive italy being huge faggots all game long. If anything it shows that people actually give a fuck and are already very passionate about this game.
gz white-ra and morrow on first and second place you're both awesome
On January 17 2011 10:09 vrok wrote: I'm not defending him really. I just don't get why you'd (not you specifically but everyone complaining about White-Ra's play) bother posting in a Starcraft 2 pro tournament thread that watching pro Starcraft 2 is boring. What about MC 4gating Jinro? Was that boring?
Watching pros play like pros is awesome, not every game will be awesome but we watch hoping for some epic games. And MC 4 gating Jinro only got good after he failed/stopped 4 gating.
That was my point really. You can't blame White-Ra for being successful at it. That's not fair.
My favourite lost, but it doesn't really count, because the opponent didn't play in a way that I approve of. Knowing this makes me feel better after a disappointing result.
On January 17 2011 09:51 Random() wrote: All of you whiners understand nothing about White-Ra. If you think that he should not have punished Morrow for being greedy with warpgate rushes, even if he had to do that 10 times in a row, you don't understand anything about competitive Starcraft either.
Morrow wasn't being overly greedy... Protoss early attacks on those maps, those positions, are just too strong to make for a good game.
O.o If having 10 lings and 1 spine when the attack comes is not greedy, than i ask you, what is?
Honestly guys, you are throwing the word "greedy" around too much. It's the new catch-phrase word now, next to "imba". It's hard to predict the opponent to randomly 5-gate aggression you. Every good Zerg should be playing greedily, unless you want to die a slow painful death. If he made 10 lings there instead of 5 drones the outcome would have been more or less the same, but if your not feeling any pressure it would be futile to make them if they aren't going to be put to use.
Blistering game was cookie-cutter, mistake by Morrow to not keep an eye on White-Ra's army, and knowing that he made a brilliant switch to take the free expo. was GG after that.
In the case of Morrow, though, he really does feel somewhat too greedy. Even other Zergs like Dimaga and Haypro commented on his excessive droning during early game in the HomestoryCup. Also, he tends to have a static early game build (ie, rarely Hatch first) that makes it easy to exploit for timing attacks.
Just to be clear, we all realize that there was money at stake, right?
First and foremost, you play to win. You cheese if you think that will work best. You 4-gate if you think that will work best. You fast-expand if you think that will work best.
If I 4-gate against my opponent ten times in a row and he still doesn't change his build to stop the attack, I'm probably going to do it an eleventh time.
The spectators may find it boring, but the player's top priority is to win the game. Heck, I'd be madder at the victim who wasn't good enough to change his build in order to force the aggressor into something other than a 4-gate (for the eleventh time). I certainly can't blame the winner for finding a build that works.
WhiteRa did the exact same thing vs. Dimaga on Blistering, destroying the backdoor rocks and attacking at the front afterwards, forcefielding the ramp... :>
I haven't watched the games yet, but I don't get how White-ra 4gating means that he knows that he can't win a macro game. It means that he knows that Morrow can't win a game in which he 4gates. It's like you're facing Gracquille O'Neal in 1-on-1 basketball, and you're a bit shorter than him. You could shoot over him without him blocking it, if you have a good day. But why would you, if you can just run around him and he can't catch up? That's all that proves, that Morrow loses to 4gates. And now that I say it, one series doesn't prove that either.
Teamliquid will never transition out of QQ after Finals, huh? Impressive Run by Ra, and I think there are two more people who won a ton of fans in this tournament. Those are TotalBiscuit and KiWiKaKi. And they deserved it
Actually, they don't have to be boring if they get defended properly. Like Shakuras or Xelnaga. Those were 4-/5- Gate attacks.
Failed 4 gates can be great games, because that'll lead into expansions and a normal, straight up game. It's the games ended by 1 base, 4 gate that are lame. Just make me sigh and wish i had done something else during that time. lol
That's the thing, it is not up to the P to fail his 4gate, it is up to the Z to defend it. It is not White-Ra's fault for winning early, it is Morrows fault for losing early.
well morrow is playing super greedy in order to have a chance against the 3 gate sentry expansion. but this makes him vulnerable to 4 or 5 gate pushes and whitera simply exploited that...
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/7SIRH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/xLd4D.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/VPBJ8.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/T1Uyu.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/jWDXP.jpg)
. Then again, I shouldn't complain because we do get GSL at 6pm every day.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iUWSf.jpg)
