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On November 23 2010 16:18 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 16:12 Stoned wrote:On November 23 2010 16:06 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Haypro was doing insanely well in practice... I think nerves combined with the almost impossible to scout builds used by this terran got the best of him....its extremely easy to die to these kind of timing builds, that's starcraft 2 for you, it all happens a lot faster than it did in sc1 and you need almost psyhic abilities to consistently win in this game..,,and that's why you see so many upsets. thats good to hear but people on here make it sound like these builds would be SOOO easy to counter when in a professional standpoint they really are extremely hard to prepare for let alone mount the proper defense upon your reaction of seeing it coming Why is everyone making ridiculous excuses for Haypro? If the sides were switched and Haypro was the Terran here, people would just be commenting on how brilliant his timing was. Haypro lost and he was fully capable of winning. It was not from any inability for Zerg to scout or any of that nonsense. Is that a joke? He SAW the Banshee coming, and it's not like Raven was some cheesey unit. He simply didn't defend at all, the very definition of greedy econ hungry Zergs. Also, this wasn't even an upset. Based on what previous matchups was Haypro supposed to be favored over a guy no one knew anything about?
agree with this entirely. im all for foreigner worship but haypro played really really badly and he could have held all that off, or just NOT 14hatched...
this has nothing to do with terran being cheesy, this was his fault. and im a zerg player.
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at first i was like
fuuuu marines
but you really can't go for that greedy idra/macro style game in korea, terrans will wipe the floor with you
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Ret laying down the truth.
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Haypro did his best so stop hating people
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On November 23 2010 16:20 Secret05 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 16:18 Ocedic wrote:On November 23 2010 16:12 Stoned wrote:On November 23 2010 16:06 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Haypro was doing insanely well in practice... I think nerves combined with the almost impossible to scout builds used by this terran got the best of him....its extremely easy to die to these kind of timing builds, that's starcraft 2 for you, it all happens a lot faster than it did in sc1 and you need almost psyhic abilities to consistently win in this game..,,and that's why you see so many upsets. thats good to hear but people on here make it sound like these builds would be SOOO easy to counter when in a professional standpoint they really are extremely hard to prepare for let alone mount the proper defense upon your reaction of seeing it coming Why is everyone making ridiculous excuses for Haypro? If the sides were switched and Haypro was the Terran here, people would just be commenting on how brilliant his timing was. Haypro lost and he was fully capable of winning. It was not from any inability for Zerg to scout or any of that nonsense. Is that a joke? He SAW the Banshee coming, and it's not like Raven was some cheesey unit. He simply didn't defend at all, the very definition of greedy econ hungry Zergs. Also, this wasn't even an upset. Based on what previous matchups was Haypro supposed to be favored over a guy no one knew anything about? because we love haypro <3 
Everyone has favorite players, but I also live in reality and can accept when my favorite players made mistakes/didn't play well/aren't actually the best. There was a time when people would say, "Damn wish Haypro would make it, better luck next time." Now they just bitch and whine about whatever petty excuses they can come up with.
EDIT: And that goes for all discussions/matches for the most part, not just this particular one.
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On November 23 2010 16:19 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Hatch first in game 1 worked off amazingly well. He got it up. How would pool first be better?
Also it's easy to judge play when you can see the whole map. As Zerg you have a million things to 'worry' about when terran is staying on 1 base. The strategies performed by this terran are just a fraction of the many different things terran can throw at you and almost all of them will hurt you bad unless you are prepared for it.
You are constantly making choices...and every choice you make solidifies your position against what you THINK is coming..but leaves you wide open if you assessed the situation wrongly. You have to stay economically healthy while being able to defend...this is a very thin line you are balancing on...you overcommit to defense, you die if terran made a command center and doesnt send all his scvs towards your base. So it goes wrong often. I think Hayder just didn't scout well enough. I think he was very nervous, and the terran strategies were very hard to predict (in game 1 hayder just barely missed the attack with his scouting ling, although he should have had a ling infront of the terran base at all times - I think this is just nerves) and well executed. GG's.
considering the current metagame on the korean side, wasn't it obvious the follow up to this 2 rax would be 2 more rax + SCV all-in? isn't it what they've all been doing or almost?
Wouldn't blindly preparing for it (once the 2 rax is scouted) would be the most +EV thing to do?
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It happens. Get em next time HayprO
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I think we should probably listen to Ret, he knows far more about the game and is in a much better position to judge what really happened than we are.
Thank you for posting in this thread sir, and best of luck for tomorrow~
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On November 23 2010 16:13 TheDougler wrote:
Havn't heard a response yet so I'm just gonna throw it out there again, sorry if this is kinda doushy but I'm a bit of a noob and REALLY want to hear everybody's input on this thought of mine:
I'm not making a claim about balance, but I think due to the current metagame Terran WILL win this season of the GSL. Not because the 2 rax is unstoppable, but because right now if you're terran you can make them play your game for the first ten minutes of the game. You can put up two barracks so they are forced to put up a baneling nest. They put up a baneling nest so they're gonna be a little slower on their lair. They're slower on their lair so you can get some solid kills with a cloaked banshee. You can diminsh their income with the banshees so they'll need to spend more larva on drones to replenish. They're spending more larva on drones which means they have a smaller army than you therefore you can win.
My logic could be WAY off here, but that's the way Tasteosis seems to be saying these games will play out and it looks like that's what's been happening. I'd very much appreciate your guy's thoughts on this.
Actually, Terren's ability to punish Zerg for a lack of certain units in the first 10min has always been the case. The only thing now is that zergs are risking it by going 14 pool because they are confident that they can hold 2 early rax. But it seems like holding depends more on mistakes from the Terren rather than the skill of the Zerg.
Also, zergs don't try to keep lings outside their base for flanks often enough to capitalize on terren mistakes. I think they should just pool first as before to bring more stability to the game.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
actually I have not even once played against 2 rax into 4 rax and ive been laddering for a week. Ive only seen intotherainbow do it before against the wind in Gstar tournament.
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Sucks, I think nerves definitely got Haypro for sure. Like Ret said, every zerg keeps lings outside base to see when stuff comes.
Also, I will be restreaming second set of games, the problems are fixed also:D
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On November 23 2010 16:23 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 16:19 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Hatch first in game 1 worked off amazingly well. He got it up. How would pool first be better?
Also it's easy to judge play when you can see the whole map. As Zerg you have a million things to 'worry' about when terran is staying on 1 base. The strategies performed by this terran are just a fraction of the many different things terran can throw at you and almost all of them will hurt you bad unless you are prepared for it.
You are constantly making choices...and every choice you make solidifies your position against what you THINK is coming..but leaves you wide open if you assessed the situation wrongly. You have to stay economically healthy while being able to defend...this is a very thin line you are balancing on...you overcommit to defense, you die if terran made a command center and doesnt send all his scvs towards your base. So it goes wrong often. I think Hayder just didn't scout well enough. I think he was very nervous, and the terran strategies were very hard to predict (in game 1 hayder just barely missed the attack with his scouting ling, although he should have had a ling infront of the terran base at all times - I think this is just nerves) and well executed. GG's. considering the current metagame on the korean side, wasn't it obvious the follow up to this 2 rax would be 2 more rax + SCV all-in? isn't it what they've all been doing or almost? Wouldn't blindly preparing for it (once the 2 rax is scouted) would be the most +EV thing to do?
judging by his posts, ret seems equally afraid of 2rax into fast cc as he is of 4rax
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On November 23 2010 16:23 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 16:19 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Hatch first in game 1 worked off amazingly well. He got it up. How would pool first be better?
Also it's easy to judge play when you can see the whole map. As Zerg you have a million things to 'worry' about when terran is staying on 1 base. The strategies performed by this terran are just a fraction of the many different things terran can throw at you and almost all of them will hurt you bad unless you are prepared for it.
You are constantly making choices...and every choice you make solidifies your position against what you THINK is coming..but leaves you wide open if you assessed the situation wrongly. You have to stay economically healthy while being able to defend...this is a very thin line you are balancing on...you overcommit to defense, you die if terran made a command center and doesnt send all his scvs towards your base. So it goes wrong often. I think Hayder just didn't scout well enough. I think he was very nervous, and the terran strategies were very hard to predict (in game 1 hayder just barely missed the attack with his scouting ling, although he should have had a ling infront of the terran base at all times - I think this is just nerves) and well executed. GG's. considering the current metagame on the korean side, wasn't it obvious the follow up to this 2 rax would be 2 more rax + SCV all-in? isn't it what they've all been doing or almost? Wouldn't blindly preparing for it (once the 2 rax is scouted) would be the most +EV thing to do?
problem is when korean terrans see hatch 1st they think: MARINE SCV ALL IN GOGOGOGO
and haypro really should know this. everyone in this thread knew what was coming before he even dropped the 3rd and 4th rax. its becos its all they've been doing.
with the current state of the metagame, to just drop 1 spine crawler and 8 lings and then just drone up without a concern... thats pretty poor.
he should have been prepared for it just becos it was so damn predictable - they do it every time!
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On November 23 2010 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote:
actually I have not even once played against 2 rax into 4 rax and ive been laddering for a week. Ive only seen intotherainbow do it before against the wind in Gstar tournament.
ah okay, I haven't ever played on korea server and missed yesterday's matches but from reading the comments it felt like people were saying that's all terrans did all the time, also I think foxer kinda made it semi popular? not sure
what have you seen most terrans who open 2 rax transition into?
edit: see what i mean, read post above mine 
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On November 23 2010 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote:
actually I have not even once played against 2 rax into 4 rax and ive been laddering for a week. Ive only seen intotherainbow do it before against the wind in Gstar tournament.
Do you actually see something other than 2 rax into "something"? Assuming you hatch like 14.. Good luck tomorrow, dont get fucked up like Haypro..
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On November 23 2010 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote:
actually I have not even once played against 2 rax into 4 rax and ive been laddering for a week. Ive only seen intotherainbow do it before against the wind in Gstar tournament.
thats kinda weird. artosis has been twittering about it a shit ton and saying its all korean terrans do right now.
but ret u say u haven't faced it - but have u been 14hatching?
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typical t.liquidnetters: if haypro played flawlessly, he would have won .... and go on to win the tournament.
i don't like these 3-yr-old style arguments. just accept reality and move on, people
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it may just be the platinum in me but it looks and feels like its the same thing as the good ol' ol' reaper build. just catered to marine and scv. of course both builds are different for diff purposes but have almost same effect but the amount of pressure the zerg feels is about the same. Mules make this harder to catch up i believe.
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On November 23 2010 16:21 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 16:18 Ocedic wrote:On November 23 2010 16:12 Stoned wrote:On November 23 2010 16:06 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Haypro was doing insanely well in practice... I think nerves combined with the almost impossible to scout builds used by this terran got the best of him....its extremely easy to die to these kind of timing builds, that's starcraft 2 for you, it all happens a lot faster than it did in sc1 and you need almost psyhic abilities to consistently win in this game..,,and that's why you see so many upsets. thats good to hear but people on here make it sound like these builds would be SOOO easy to counter when in a professional standpoint they really are extremely hard to prepare for let alone mount the proper defense upon your reaction of seeing it coming Why is everyone making ridiculous excuses for Haypro? If the sides were switched and Haypro was the Terran here, people would just be commenting on how brilliant his timing was. Haypro lost and he was fully capable of winning. It was not from any inability for Zerg to scout or any of that nonsense. Is that a joke? He SAW the Banshee coming, and it's not like Raven was some cheesey unit. He simply didn't defend at all, the very definition of greedy econ hungry Zergs. Also, this wasn't even an upset. Based on what previous matchups was Haypro supposed to be favored over a guy no one knew anything about? agree with this entirely. im all for foreigner worship but haypro played really really badly and he could have held all that off, or just NOT 14hatched... this has nothing to do with terran being cheesy, this was his fault. and im a zerg player.
what should he have done instead? 1 based? 6 pooled?
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On November 23 2010 16:27 Crt wrote:
typical t.liquidnetters: if haypro played flawlessly, he would have won .... and go on to win the tournament.
i don't like these 3-yr-old style arguments. just accept reality and move on, people
It's not like he had no chance to win. It's a bo3 not a bo7. Stuff happens. Haypro is a good player.
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EPT
