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8751 Posts
On November 19 2010 04:35 Xxavi wrote:
I love how these foreigners mouth of Koreans. It would be OK if they achieved anything remotely close, but no, it's just the talking. "They should have used Day9 strategy, PainUser strategy" etc. No offense, but that doesn't sound anything good. Whoever used Day9 strategy against Nada and won? Who did use PainUser strategy and won?
Even the names of these strategies sound funny, when you think it's Nada playing. I wish all these people who aren't impressed by these bad players could show why and how much they are better in actual games. Otherwise we keep hearing Idra and others, yet they didn't finish in top 8 of GSL as yet.
Folks, to me, it sounds like sour grapes. I would like to see these brilliant protosses employing these brilliant strategies, cuz I am fairly disappointed with the Protosses. Didn't see anybody remotely close to Tester at his best, so if he is bad, then others are simply terrible.
PS And yes, Nony, I watched your games against Idra as well. Nothing to write home about. The same strategy that tons and tons of protosses use, a lot of cheddar cheese in there. I hope your above post doesn't imply, like Idra's comments, that you are better than Tester.
lol so hypocrite. i think you are jealous of our ability to critique their games. until you can show us that you are better at critiquing their games than we are, im just gonna call sour grapes on u!
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game 1 tester/nada was a pretty amazing hold in that first engagement by tester. Really not sure how nada didn't win just right there. I hope there is a ITR vs tester match at some point because ITR always knocks out the last protosses in these gsl's.
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On November 19 2010 04:42 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 04:35 Xxavi wrote:
I love how these foreigners mouth of Koreans. It would be OK if they achieved anything remotely close, but no, it's just the talking. "They should have used Day9 strategy, PainUser strategy" etc. No offense, but that doesn't sound anything good. Whoever used Day9 strategy against Nada and won? Who did use PainUser strategy and won?
Even the names of these strategies sound funny, when you think it's Nada playing. I wish all these people who aren't impressed by these bad players could show why and how much they are better in actual games. Otherwise we keep hearing Idra and others, yet they didn't finish in top 8 of GSL as yet.
Folks, to me, it sounds like sour grapes. I would like to see these brilliant protosses employing these brilliant strategies, cuz I am fairly disappointed with the Protosses. Didn't see anybody remotely close to Tester at his best, so if he is bad, then others are simply terrible.
PS And yes, Nony, I watched your games against Idra as well. Nothing to write home about. The same strategy that tons and tons of protosses use, a lot of cheddar cheese in there. I hope your above post doesn't imply, like Idra's comments, that you are better than Tester. You need to learn to read and intepret posts properly before you respond. There is no comparing, there is only the idea and theory behind why X isnt working, and why it worked now. Imo the game on LT was a great example of how this is still a very new game and how it will keep evolve. Protoss need to evolve to go deeper in tournaments at the very highest level that's for sure. I agree with Tyler, Testers play on LT felt really vulnurable. Protoss is very unforgiving imo, and if you have holes in your build that can be abused, those holes will be abused, especially in a series. Thus, as Tyler states, it's no surprise that Tester gets sniped in BO3s. I'm sure Tester will come out as a even stronger player eventually, and I think he's still one of the absolut bests. I'm very glad he won  .
Well, if I understood Nony wrongly, he can correct it. But what he said is simple, that he is not impressed with Tester (isn't this a way to say that he is average/not impressive?), that Tester was sloppy, and he can be unsurprisingly sniped.
To a degree, it is correct, but I would attribute it to the current balance of the game. No Protoss is at a level where he cannot be sniped. Or am I missing somebody? Where are the armies of better Protoss players? Genius? Inca? oGsMC? Huk? Kiwikaki? Tyler? They can all be sniped. Their game can look sloppy, but that's not because these players, and Tester, are bad, it's just the race is weak. You can get a ghost, and that strategy is worse, that's correct. But that fact is more of the balance issue, than player issue.
We either accept that the current crop of protoss players are sloppy and unimpressive, just mediocre, or we give credit where it's due and say that to a degree Tester was lucky. Because Terran is overpowered. I can accept that.
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On November 19 2010 04:35 Xxavi wrote:
I love how these foreigners mouth of Koreans. It would be OK if they achieved anything remotely close, but no, it's just the talking. "They should have used Day9 strategy, PainUser strategy" etc. No offense, but that doesn't sound anything good. Whoever used Day9 strategy against Nada and won? Who did use PainUser strategy and won?
Even the names of these strategies sound funny, when you think it's Nada playing. I wish all these people who aren't impressed by these bad players could show why and how much they are better in actual games. Otherwise we keep hearing Idra and others, yet they didn't finish in top 8 of GSL as yet.
Folks, to me, it sounds like sour grapes. I would like to see these brilliant protosses employing these brilliant strategies, cuz I am fairly disappointed with the Protosses. Didn't see anybody remotely close to Tester at his best, so if he is bad, then others are simply terrible.
PS And yes, Nony, I watched your games against Idra as well. Nothing to write home about. The same strategy that tons and tons of protosses use, a lot of cheddar cheese in there. I hope your above post doesn't imply, like Idra's comments, that you are better than Tester.
I loved that game it was entertaining and I am a Tester fan but If you honestly calm down and just watch the game its pretty obvious Tester was skating on thin ice the entire game which is what Tyler was getting at. Its cool to see him pull it off, but a small tactical change on Nada's part or a mistake from Tester and he is dead playing that style.
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On November 19 2010 04:42 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 04:35 Xxavi wrote:
I love how these foreigners mouth of Koreans. It would be OK if they achieved anything remotely close, but no, it's just the talking. "They should have used Day9 strategy, PainUser strategy" etc. No offense, but that doesn't sound anything good. Whoever used Day9 strategy against Nada and won? Who did use PainUser strategy and won?
Even the names of these strategies sound funny, when you think it's Nada playing. I wish all these people who aren't impressed by these bad players could show why and how much they are better in actual games. Otherwise we keep hearing Idra and others, yet they didn't finish in top 8 of GSL as yet.
Folks, to me, it sounds like sour grapes. I would like to see these brilliant protosses employing these brilliant strategies, cuz I am fairly disappointed with the Protosses. Didn't see anybody remotely close to Tester at his best, so if he is bad, then others are simply terrible.
PS And yes, Nony, I watched your games against Idra as well. Nothing to write home about. The same strategy that tons and tons of protosses use, a lot of cheddar cheese in there. I hope your above post doesn't imply, like Idra's comments, that you are better than Tester. You need to learn to read and intepret posts properly before you respond. There is no comparing, there is only the idea and theory behind why X isnt working, and why it worked now. Imo the game on LT was a great example of how this is still a very new game and how it will keep evolve. Protoss need to evolve to go deeper in tournaments at the very highest level that's for sure. I agree with Tyler, Testers play on LT felt really vulnurable. Protoss is very unforgiving imo, and if you have holes in your build that can be abused, those holes will be abused, especially in a series. Thus, as Tyler states, it's no surprise that Tester gets sniped in BO3s. I'm sure Tester will come out as a even stronger player eventually, and I think he's still one of the absolut bests. I'm very glad he won .
Uhm, on the contrary Tester didn't want any holes in his build, which is why he used the build he did in LT.
He had no idea what Nada's early build order was because he failed to see the FE. As a result, he can't expand because of a possible early push by Nada given the short distance between the two bases on LT. Once he does scout the expansion with an Observer, he has one of two choices: follow up with an expo of his own or all-in Nada. He decides to play it safe and expo as well, but by this point he's behind economically by a fair margin.
Tester simply guessed wrong about Nada's early game plan therefore fell behind in build orders. It's not necessarily a bad build order, just the wrong one to use although he had no way of knowing that.
I think Tester played very well to his strengths in that game. Didn't try to compete through mechanics and sheer army sizes early on with gateway vs rax units, but used more micro-oriented units (Phoenix/Sentries/Collossi) to win the battles and take the game.
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On November 19 2010 04:35 Xxavi wrote:
I love how these foreigners mouth of Koreans. It would be OK if they achieved anything remotely close, but no, it's just the talking. "They should have used Day9 strategy, PainUser strategy" etc. No offense, but that doesn't sound anything good. Whoever used Day9 strategy against Nada and won? Who did use PainUser strategy and won?
Even the names of these strategies sound funny, when you think it's Nada playing. I wish all these people who aren't impressed by these bad players could show why and how much they are better in actual games. Otherwise we keep hearing Idra and others, yet they didn't finish in top 8 of GSL as yet.
Folks, to me, it sounds like sour grapes. I would like to see these brilliant protosses employing these brilliant strategies, cuz I am fairly disappointed with the Protosses. Didn't see anybody remotely close to Tester at his best, so if he is bad, then others are simply terrible.
PS And yes, Nony, I watched your games against Idra as well. Nothing to write home about. The same strategy that tons and tons of protosses use, a lot of cheddar cheese in there. I hope your above post doesn't imply, like Idra's comments, that you are better than Tester.
My thoughts exactly.
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On November 19 2010 04:35 Xxavi wrote:
I love how these foreigners mouth of Koreans. It would be OK if they achieved anything remotely close, but no, it's just the talking. "They should have used Day9 strategy, PainUser strategy" etc. No offense, but that doesn't sound anything good. Whoever used Day9 strategy against Nada and won? Who did use PainUser strategy and won?
Even the names of these strategies sound funny, when you think it's Nada playing. I wish all these people who aren't impressed by these bad players could show why and how much they are better in actual games. Otherwise we keep hearing Idra and others, yet they didn't finish in top 8 of GSL as yet.
Folks, to me, it sounds like sour grapes. I would like to see these brilliant protosses employing these brilliant strategies, cuz I am fairly disappointed with the Protosses. Didn't see anybody remotely close to Tester at his best, so if he is bad, then others are simply terrible.
PS And yes, Nony, I watched your games against Idra as well. Nothing to write home about. The same strategy that tons and tons of protosses use, a lot of cheddar cheese in there. I hope your above post doesn't imply, like Idra's comments, that you are better than Tester.
I think this is more of a case where it is much easier to analyze replays of games and point out errors and mistakes than when actually in-game. It is foolish to simply assume that these players are always doing the exactly correct things, in every game. Did you watch all of the GSL games? You can clearly see when people play bad and make poor decisions. We can't always look at the end result and say "Tester played amazing because he beat Nada". Why don't you point out exactly what Tyler said that was not true. Point out why Tyler is wrong in his analysis of the game instead of screaming 'Sour Grapes!!!'. I don't see the issue with solid players pointing out what they don't like about another top players' play. Sure, I don't like it when they offer no explanations like Idra did regarding Nestea. When they are pointing out specifics of how they could've changed their strategy and been more successful, I think that is worth listening to. The top players have been changing strategies and evolving constantly since the game's release. Making assumptions that players like Tester and Nada are executing the 'best' strategies all the time seems like an unwise idea. We've watched some of the best of the best, lose to simply "this strategy loses to this strategy" games. We need to question their strategies and their play, all the time imo.
I don't think Tyler was trying to take a swipe at Tester being a "bad player". I do think it is fair to point out the downfalls of his strategies and maybe now some people can understand why he has failed to make the GSL twice in a row. You don't need to be top 8 GSL to criticize the the decisions and builds of other top players. There is no reason I can think of to censor ourselves as to not *gasp* point out the errors in top play. If you've watched the GSL, you'll see how often all these top players can easily make strategic blunders that cost them games. You'll also see lots of games where people win with perfect decision making. There is nothing wrong with discussing these players' builds and they ways they handled themselves in particular games. We don't need to be Impressed just because Tester beat Nada. We've watched tons of high level games from the best in the world and you don't need to have top 8 GSL credentials to point out errors and ways that they might be able to improve. We just don't have BW-pro level players yet in SC2.
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On November 19 2010 04:35 Xxavi wrote:
I love how these foreigners mouth of Koreans. It would be OK if they achieved anything remotely close, but no, it's just the talking. "They should have used Day9 strategy, PainUser strategy" etc. No offense, but that doesn't sound anything good. Whoever used Day9 strategy against Nada and won? Who did use PainUser strategy and won?
Even the names of these strategies sound funny, when you think it's Nada playing. I wish all these people who aren't impressed by these bad players could show why and how much they are better in actual games. Otherwise we keep hearing Idra and others, yet they didn't finish in top 8 of GSL as yet.
Folks, to me, it sounds like sour grapes. I would like to see these brilliant protosses employing these brilliant strategies, cuz I am fairly disappointed with the Protosses. Didn't see anybody remotely close to Tester at his best, so if he is bad, then others are simply terrible.
PS And yes, Nony, I watched your games against Idra as well. Nothing to write home about. The same strategy that tons and tons of protosses use, a lot of cheddar cheese in there. I hope your above post doesn't imply, like Idra's comments, that you are better than Tester.
I dont see why you have instantly attacked him for commenting on something that to be honest is quite right, testers build was quite fragile, if nada attacked earlier he probably could of outright killed him there and then he started building tanks vs a mass pheonix army..., you dont have to be better than the player to be able to comment on their strategy and doing so definitely doesnt imply your better/stronger.
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Tyler didn't even say Tester was bad, he said his strategy was flawed and pointed out why and how Nada could have taken advantage of it. It's very possible for amazing players to use flawed strategies, and its also possible for them to win with them because even though his strategy was flawed he executed it very well which made the game so fun to watch.
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I have yet too see a totally safe Protoss strategy on basically any map. It's true that fast colossi seems/is very risky, and getting more gateway units/immortals seems to be a better idea, but still, in every PvT there is a time when you have to tech up. And you are extremely vulnerable when you do. Every decent build seems to have "windows of vulnerability" or at least this is how I see it. It's hard to expect Ps to be solid when they have to pray that their opponents don't exploit those timings. Or do you have any brilliant, solid builds for PvT?
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Oh right, he can correct me, I told you. But what you read from Nony is simply only negative things about Tester's build. No balanced discussion. So I got the impression, along the Idra lines, that Tester only won because the opponent (Nada) was a noob. Nada could have used PainUser built, unfortunately he wasn't aware of PainUser.
Of course, the analysis of second game is lacking.
These to me seemed very similar to Idra twitter lines after FruitDealer's win against HopeTorture, saying HopeTorture was a noob and horrible, and that's the only reason FruitDealer won. In other words, jealousy.
Fair play, HopeTorture didn't play too well, and Nada made his mistakes during the games, but these one liners and twitter lines, and just general comments smell a lot of jealousy. The only thing I could say is "well, it's unlucky that you cannot be lucky". I am sure Idra won't mind if he fluked his way to GSL3 title, like he considers NesTea did, and like he considered Fruitdealer did.
I will shut it, if Idra wins GSL3 and trashtalks. Before he does it, he is a fan like myself. Sitting at home and pouring shit on some players, and praising others. The same goes to Tyler.
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What other build could Tester have done on LT anyway, given the circumstances?
FE? He had no idea what Nada's build order was because his probe got denied.
All-in after seeing Nada's expo? By that time Nada had more production facilities and his expo had been up for awhile. The timing to punish Nada's FE was over by the time the observer scouted it.
By the time Tester got his own expo up, he was extremely behind economically. And he's not going to win through mechanics anyway, so his hope lies in micro and micro-oriented units (Oh hi, Collossi and Phoenixes) and winning a 200/200 army clash to either 1) counter nada or 2) get enough breathing room to take his own expos.
But hey, if I'm wrong please feel free to enlighten me as to what Tester should have done that game, instead of talking about how Nada messed up. I mean your initial point was about how sloppy Tester's play was, but then you spend most of your post talking about Nada messed up.
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Edit: accidental double post
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guy a: tester why so good!!!
tyler: lol tester didnt execute well, i am disappoint
guy a: tester why so bad!!!
Please don't blow his comment out of proportion. He's just saying Tester could have executed better, which is true. Nada could have exected better, which is true.
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I enjoyed reading Xxavi's posts.
It was also very entertaining watching Tester's phoenix play! Felt sort of refreshing. All in all I like watching Tester and NEXGenius play the Protoss race.
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On November 19 2010 05:19 Klamity wrote:
guy a: tester why so good!!!
tyler: lol tester didnt execute well, i am disappoint
guy a: tester why so bad!!!
So true.
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On November 19 2010 05:19 Klamity wrote:
guy a: tester why so good!!!
tyler: lol tester didnt execute well, i am disappoint
guy a: tester why so bad!!!
Please don't blow his comment out of proportion. He's just saying Tester could have executed better, which is true. Nada could have exected better, which is true.
How is anyone blowing things out of proportion? The thing that irks people is that Idra/Nony are criticizing a player without explaining WHY they think that. Yes, I'm aware that Nony did explain himself in subsequent posts after someone asked him to explain himself.
If you know something that no one else does, that's great. But if you're going to say "so-and-so is bad" without telling why then why even bother posting? Keep your smug comments to yourself. There are times when explanations aren't needed, but when the majority of the previous posts are about how well Tester played, you better explain explain yourself if you're going to disagree with the common opinion.
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On November 19 2010 05:17 MayorITC wrote:
What other build could Tester have done on LT anyway, given the circumstances?
FE? He had no idea what Nada's build order was because his probe got denied.
All-in after seeing Nada's expo? By that time Nada had more production facilities and his expo had been up for awhile. The timing to punish Nada's FE was over by the time the observer scouted it.
By the time Tester got his own expo up, he was extremely behind economically. And he's not going to win through mechanics anyway, so his hope lies in micro and micro-oriented units (Oh hi, Collossi and Phoenixes) and winning a 200/200 army clash to either 1) counter nada or 2) get enough breathing room to take his own expos.
But hey, if I'm wrong please feel free to enlighten me as to what Tester should have done that game, instead of talking about how Nada messed up. I mean your initial point was about how sloppy Tester's play was, but then you spend most of your post talking about Nada messed up.
I agree completely. Thanks for pointing that out. Initial one-liner was that Tester was bad/unimpressive/sloppy call whatever you want. Then it turns out the mistakes were from Nada, who didn't use PainUser strategy.
The only thing Tester did is a risky strategy which can be effectively countered, and I guess that's annoying to some that Tester got away with it.
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Its so easy to sit watch the game from spectator point and tell how players did soo many mistakes .
Games are lost and won only because someone made mistake .
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EPT
