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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
You're putting words into Tylers post now. He said he disliked testers play, not that he disliked it because it wasn't a "Day9 approved build" He was just further letting people know why he found the play to be weak, and disappointing... Please, leave your bleeding heart dramatic bullshit for Battle.net forums. This pot doesn't need be stirred. You're just spreading drama for no reason at all. And you Completely disregard anything anyone says to you. Definition of troll, anyone? | ||
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unaliased
United States83 Posts
On November 19 2010 07:00 Uncultured wrote: Unaliased, I suggest you don't use quotation marks when you aren't directly quoting someone. To help make it look less like you're trying to take things out of context to fit your point... You're putting words into Tylers post now. He said he disliked testers play, not that he disliked it because it wasn't a "Day9 approved build" He was just further letting people know why he found the play to be weak, and disappointing... Please, leave your bleeding heart dramatic bullshit for Battle.net forums. This pot doesn't need be stirred. You're just spreading drama for no reason at all. And you Completely disregard anything anyone says to you. Definition of troll, anyone? And all I'm saying is I dislike the way he went about his criticism because he did it in a dick way. I basically just did exactly what he did in his first post and you're saying it's uncalled for. Yes. Just like his first post was. | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
On November 19 2010 06:12 Klamity wrote: This would be fine if he didn't explain himself 4 or 5 posts down, only to continually have people poke at it. You could try reading before commenting with something idiotic. His initial comment more or less says "Tester's build wasn't refined, I am not impressed." Not once did he say Tester was bad, and further, he's commenting on ONE game. Please follow your own advice, thanks. I already acknowledged that Nony explained his first post. In response, people picked apart his explanation, not at his lack of explanation. For example, "you claimed Tester played poorly, but your explanation only picks apart Nada's play." You should try reading before commenting with something idiotic. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On November 19 2010 07:07 unaliased wrote: And all I'm saying is I dislike the way he went about his criticism because he did it in a dick way. I basically just did exactly what he did in his first post and you're saying it's uncalled for. Yes. Just like his first post was. Really? So you're not saying this? On November 19 2010 06:25 unaliased wrote: Tester = S class. Tyler = won a gosu coaching match. Why doesn't Tyler bother to fly out to Korea so he can show us all how much better he is? Have you ever heard of a "straw-man" argument? edit: Also ousting yourself as a hypocrite, lawl. | ||
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eoLithic
Norway221 Posts
- Myself, 18`th of November right before i fall dead asleep | ||
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norterrible
United States618 Posts
And all I'm saying is I dislike the way he went about his criticism because he did it in a dick way. I basically just did exactly what he did in his first post and you're saying it's uncalled for. Yes. Just like his first post was. The difference is people care what tyler has to say, and discussing the games is relevant to the interests of the thread. No one cares what you have to say, and you hating on tyler has nothing to do with the thread. | ||
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Arcticc
United States203 Posts
On November 19 2010 07:29 norterrible wrote: The difference is people care what tyler has to say, and discussing the games is relevant to the interests of the thread. No one cares what you have to say, and you hating on tyler has nothing to do with the thread. Beat me to it. Pretty ballsy to come onto a team's forum, abrasively criticize one of it's players, in a thread focusing on an unrelated subject. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
I think that people don't realize how invaluable your input is. It's an honor to read comments from the progamers themselves, but people don't respect that, and that's sad. Anyways I found tester very solid but after reading your posts I'm convinced that he's not as solid as he seemed  | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
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KevinAce
United States101 Posts
http://www.livestream.com/kevinace | ||
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dagene
United States75 Posts
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Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
On November 19 2010 03:21 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Yeah his build was just plain bad. It's possible to expo faster safely and simply have more units. Tester's build is exactly the build that Day9 doesn't like either but Koreans keep doing it. NaDa's build should be owned by Tester's build so much faster on LT because NaDa's little timing attack is horrible against the tiny choke on LT's naturals, so all those units do nothing but delay a proper TvP composition. But Tester does a bad version of that build and so he doesn't easily repel NaDa's attack and NaDa's 4rax pump with delayed Starport actually works. On close position Metalopolis -- ok try it. On LT, no that shouldn't work. Mass Phoenix looks so cool until they get EMP'd and take 600+ shield damage instantly and then can't kill the Vikings nor do any lifting. Or until Terran leaves a group of ~8 Marines in back of their army, so when it's Viking vs Phoenix, 8 stimmed Marines turn the tide and the Colossi can't run forward to do anything about it. But NaDa broke him anyway and tried to stream in units to capitalize but it was the wrong choice because he never EMP'd the Phoenixes and they had dozens of lifts in them. He could have sat back and had another timing where he could build a composition that didn't give a shit about Colossi because Tester would only have ~3 Colossi rebuilt and not much Force Field either (if any) by the time NaDa hit his timing. But instead, he continued to build an anti-Colossi composition and then just let Tester rebuild Colossi. That's not how to play TvP. Or NaDa could have gone the PainUser route and centered his composition around Thors. I'd bet that PainUser saw that game as totally winnable for NaDa. Better yet, combine those ideas. After breaking Tester, go in when you have 3 Thors, 1 ghost and whatever other MM Viking your Barracks and Starports were able to make. gg phoenix composition So are you planning on watching SangHo's games then? With his background he should be at or near the top mechanically speaking at least, yet he did not qualify either, and went out rather unceremoniously to early pressure from Foxer in last GSL. I'm curious because no one has been talking about him, but to me he should be comparable to guys like Tester and Genius. It would be interesting to see his play critiqued on the same level, he seemed to play very cautiously in GSL2. | ||
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lao
United States33 Posts
On November 19 2010 05:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Tester can do essentially the same build (gateways, robotics for observer to scout, expand, colossus) but he can optimize the order to have an equal or better economy and definitely a stronger army. This optimization doesn't sacrifice any safety. It sacrifices nothing. It's just better. I'm kind of surprised a progamer would say something like this. Every reasonable build, as long as you keep your money low, accomplishes SOMETHING. it may not be very useful, or a good idea given what you've scouted, but it does SOMETHING better than other builds. By that I mean, it satisfies the conditions of "has X units at time t1," in addition to "has Y units at time t2." Sure, at time t3, it may not have as many as a different build, but that alternate build might not have hit X units at t1 for example, so it might have died to some earlier timing push. When your scout gets denied early, the number of these "waypoints" your build has to hit increases, because you can't rule out certain builds. Tester scouted very early marine marauder pressure with his probe, and lost 3 probes to the reaper. He didn't see the expo, wasn't sure what was coming, but probably suspected the FE. He needed 2 gates to hold off what could have been a 2rax FE, but also didnt want to fall too far behind, so he expod also. He decided on two obs--that decision is the only thing I have gripes with, since I don't think cloaked banshees were likely with 3 marauders and a reaper showing, but that's whatever. Once his obs saw the heavy MM + FE, he got out 2 imms and went straight for colossi. At the first fight, he had 4 zealots, 4 sentries, 2 imm, and 1 colossus. He took out what looks to be about 16 marines and 10 marauders. Before he scouted the FE and the MM mix, he had to add in all kinds of "waypoints," including 2rax FE, 3rax, delayed cloaked banshees, etc. I'm not sure if his 1 zealot + 2 sentries + robo + warp-ins could have held off these things, but I'm assuming that was his intention. (And from Nada's side, he saw the exact timing on the expo, knew exactly where tester was up to that point, and saw the immortals and obs later. but he didnt see the robo bay, and didn't know if tester threw down two more gateways or what. he decided to play it safe and knock down his gold rocks before pushing. I have no problem with the timing on that push.) | ||
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Sideburn
United States442 Posts
On November 19 2010 06:54 unaliased wrote: Saying things like "I'm not impressed by Tester because he didn't use Day9 approved builds" is pretty silly. I don't see Tester hopping on here to talk about how he's not impressed by Tyler. That's just likely a function of Tyler not even being on his radar. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On November 19 2010 05:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Your summary of my criticism is way off. It's like I'm teaching a grad class but I summarize a 2 hour lecture in 5 minutes, and you're a freshman in undergrad anyway, so there's like no chance we're gonna have clear communication. Tester can do essentially the same build (gateways, robotics for observer to scout, expand, colossus) but he can optimize the order to have an equal or better economy and definitely a stronger army. This optimization doesn't sacrifice any safety. It sacrifices nothing. It's just better. What is your point about me talking about NaDa when criticizing Tester? Tester won the game so there are two ways to criticize his play: (1) how he could have won more easily while doing essentially the same thing and (2) what things could have theoretically beaten him that he needs to address. I did both, first by saying that he could have improved his build to dominate NaDa in the midgame and second by saying the different things NaDa could have done in the lategame to beat Tester. I don't have to say what Tester needs to do to defeat the things that NaDa could have theoretically done in order to defend my criticism of Tester. And Xxavi, when you say that is essentially what I said in my very first post except no, I'm not annoyed about it. Everyone knows Tester unexpectedly failed to qualify for both GSL2 and GSL3. We don't get to watch those games. But we do get to check out Tester's play in these games and I'm looking to see if it's impressively rock solid or if it has some faults that anybody with good mechanics could possibly take advantage of in a bo3. My original comment is saying "yeah I can see how he's not qualifying" OK, fair enough. I apologize that I didn't get your post. Tester indeed seems a step away from loss in both games. I agree with that. In fact, I didn't think any Protoss will do good in this all-star tournament unless they are lucky. HongunPrime lost one-sidedly, Genius won but I didn't like how NesTea played. We will see how other Toss players fair. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On November 19 2010 07:18 ssregitoss wrote: tester could expand early but his scouting probe denied.and it was too late to put a nexus down.i think he wanted to expand after his first collo.i dont agree with day9 for fast collo review.cause even nexgenius goes for it and he is currently the best pvt (lost to hopetorture only).i refrerance these korean guys play rather than usa or europen guys. It may be a difference of styles, but I think Korean terran are more aggressive. As you said, Tester wasn't sure if Nada is going to play using 2 bases, so he could only get prepared for an attack. When Tester saw that Nada expanded to gold, he was already behind food, and resources, and was already pinned back to his base. The contain was such that Tester couldn't just expand. So he had to prepare an army composition which will allow him to break the contain and expand. I am not entirely sure if he knew whether Nada had ghosts or not. He knew Nada had tons of vikings, so he went phoenixes. It's risky, but let's remember that Nada is no mug. The guy is a macro beast. He made Tester go defensive. You can be a very aggressive toss if you do some blink stalker stuff, but it's so tedious to watch. And it is not necessarily successful either. | ||
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toadstool
Australia421 Posts
On November 19 2010 06:25 unaliased wrote: Tester = S class. Tyler = won a gosu coaching match. Why doesn't Tyler bother to fly out to Korea so he can show us all how much better he is? wtf is wrong with you, just because they're in the GSL doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. It's okay to be critical of someone's performance even if they win, they could have done things better. | ||
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Gaius Baltar
United States449 Posts
Edit: Nevermind, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170140 | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
Without them, we would not have known the critical analysis that this pros seem to come to from just looking at their gameplay. Every minute detail would be much more apparent to them while we might be insensitive to such. Be glad that they are here, they provide a deeper view of something that we couldn't possibly decipher at first sight. | ||
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