On November 16 2010 18:58 MrKn4rz wrote:
You believe everything you see in Television dont you?
You believe everything you see in Television dont you?
so, you believe vegetarians are more healthy than carnivors?
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zivac
Croatia389 Posts
On November 16 2010 18:58 MrKn4rz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 16 2010 18:29 zivac wrote: artosis is vegetarian, it is real reason why he gets sick so often You believe everything you see in Television dont you? so, you believe vegetarians are more healthy than carnivors? | ||
Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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Corrupted
United States1255 Posts
Someday I'll understand why people keep doing this. | ||
fean0r
Germany117 Posts
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bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
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Kyouya
Mexico318 Posts
On November 16 2010 19:06 puppy pizza wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote: Hey Everyone, This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic. As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent. Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite. Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias. This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all. To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity. And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything. (Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this) -A Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though ![]() is this serious. this is so bad. you're making your team look worse than anyone on TL ever has. This. | ||
Uriel_SVK
Slovakia427 Posts
On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote: Hey Everyone, This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic. As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent. Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite. Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias. This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all. To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity. And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything. (Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this) -A Should be banned because of derailing LR thread + Show Spoiler + jk I do not think You are right sir. Censoring Aya was a great joke, it partially lifted that sadness after Huk lost. And I believe TL would have no problem adding Clan tags to names if they were be asked. | ||
ottersareneat
United States55 Posts
On November 16 2010 19:04 Couvre wrote: So I go to the EG website and I notice that they don't include any clan tags when they mention names (IE: sir scoots' uploaded replays of incontrol vs nony and socke). Parity? Definitely a good point... but my counter-point would be that there's such a massive disparity between the size and scope of TL and the size and scope of EG's website at the moment that, while EG is still within the confines of a relatively small, team-specific website, TL shattered that a long time ago, and now wears the dual hat of team website and community coverage hub. Our website doesn't cover any competition or match, in any game that doesn't involve one of our players, whereas TL is currently the ESPN.com (Europeans/Canadians: forgive me for using an American sports analogy) of StarCraft. So I'd argue that since we're so much smaller, and we're in no way trying to be a coverage website or serving any other purpose than updating our team's fans on our own players, the standards are different. Still, fair point, and duly noted. | ||
GGruss
Sweden121 Posts
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Rubyfire
Germany186 Posts
On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote: + Show Spoiler + Hey Everyone, This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic. As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent. Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite. Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias. This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all. To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity. And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything. (Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this) -A Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though ![]() Btw good points, but I also have to mention, that for example the MLG Dallas Recap on your site also doens't mention, that SeleCT is a member of Dignitas. Other articles also don't state to which team a player belongs. Maybe EG doesn't have that much traffic as TL, I don't know. But you should maybe also consider sticking with the points you've made in EG coverage articles. Sources: EG.SC2 to MLG Dallas MLG Dallas recap Edit: Oh crap, I was too slow. | ||
arQ
1033 Posts
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kmkg
Japan186 Posts
Choya qualifies but how's BoxeR doing? | ||
dtz
5834 Posts
I agree with your points and feel they are valid but i think most importantly TL.net should be whatever TL wants themselves to be and they should not be held to a certain standard of what others want them to be. If TL wants to be the ESPN of SC2 then sure by all means. But if they want to stay as community site who are (naturally and obviously) biased towards its own players then its all fine and good as well. It is their house. | ||
Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On November 16 2010 19:13 arQ wrote: Sigh. I guess the general community member is not ready to help move western e-sport up a notch. Care to elaborate? Going to such extremes does not make sense. | ||
tyrless
United States485 Posts
I can totally see how you find that funny but this just reminds me how much I dislike Incontrol from the first time I saw him in an Interview. For me he represents the cliché American as many Europeans like to see. Europeans have a cliche of Americans as witty and cut? | ||
estee
Korea (South)449 Posts
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kmkg
Japan186 Posts
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Delamos
United States32 Posts
Idra Inca and Incontrol, who have all had their times of BM...... lol Oh btw. http://img27.imageshack.us/f/whenwillhenotice.png/ :D | ||
ghostnuke1234
164 Posts
On November 16 2010 19:05 HolyArrow wrote: TL.net may have elevated to the de facto standard-bearer of the SC westerner community TL has an obligation to represent western values, and therefore, impartial western standards of journalism. I am confounded why TL would censor the player would defeated Huk ... there is nothing to censor as players winning and losing is a fact of SC2 and BW. | ||
Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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