On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote: Hey Everyone,
This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic.
As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent.
Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite.
Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias.
This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all.
To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity.
And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything.
(Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this)
-A
I find it incredibly ironic that you are using d.SeleCT as an example of somebody who deserves due respect. Do you realize that in several public casts (DJWheat's LiveOn3 casts in both MLG Dallas and MLG DC) as well as a couple State of the Game podcasts, one of your members (hint: he's a big guy) continually made entirely inappropriate remarks about d.SeleCT? We're talking straight up racist comments, crude remarks about penis size, and physical gestures explicitly demonstrating "anal rape." On the LiveOn3 casts, these absurd remarks are made while other EG members (Machine, IdrA, etc.) laugh in the background, and at least in Dallas the perpetrator was even drunk. To make it worse, these jokes are made right in front of SirScoots (the interviewer), who lets it happen. Clearly your organization has no qualms about picking on a guy from another team who's not even in the room.
Your comments about TL censorship I agree with, but from the viewpoint of a regular fan who follows the scene, a statement by EG is ridiculously hypocritical. If this statement were made by fnatic or ROOT or any other team, I wouldn't have a problem at all.
On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote: Hey Everyone,
This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic.
As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent.
Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite.
Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias.
This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all.
To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity.
And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything.
(Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this)
-A
Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though .
is this serious. this is so bad. you're making your team look worse than anyone on TL ever has.
This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic.
As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent.
Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite.
Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias.
This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all.
To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity.
And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything.
(Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this)
-A
Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though .
Well, you overlook two points, firstly motbob is not a tlnet employee, he's just a member of the community. And secondly if there is someone to blame its only Select himself- if he doesnt even bother to put Dignitas in his battlenet ID why should anyone else?
TBH if a team/sponsor wants their name in your name, they should pay you another account. As long as there is no clan function at B.net 2.0, it's stupid to add a clantag to your name. Only few people stay at the same clan/team for ages and i don't think you'll be able to change your name freely for many times to come. And WHEN the clanfunction gets added, i doubt you'll need your teamname in your name.
On November 16 2010 18:29 zivac wrote: artosis is vegetarian, it is real reason why he gets sick so often
You believe everything you see in Television dont you?
...... Grass and shit... Lol the reason he gets sick all the time....
This is so mean haha. I know that incontrol and artosis are friends, but to a listener that doesn't know, this might sound like an angry rant lol. Reminds me of the 50 dkp minus video.
On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote: Hey Everyone,
This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic.
As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent.
Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite.
Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias.
This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all.
To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity.
And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything.
(Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this)
-A
TL.net may have elevated to the de facto standard-bearer of the SC westerner community, but they are a team and this is their site, so they have no obligation towards journalistic propriety. As a relatively new visitor (like most people probably who came in during the SC2 beta) I come here for simple reasons...site has a good layout the best community members posting frequently. The only standards they should hold by are their own, which judging by their success are just right..any bias towards their own team members is the exact opposite of extremely problematic.
Nobody is stopping you from attempting to prop up the EG website as the bastion of integrity you think the SC community needs.
On November 16 2010 19:06 Mellotron wrote: I dont see why TL would purposely try to hurt "esports" or anyone on purpose. I highly doubt TL is out to hold grudges or purposely shun player clan tags or sponsors.
It's not that they're hurting it, but that they might doing things that could potentially cause e-sports to grow in prominence more slowly than if they put on a perfect example of professionalism.
@EGAlex thanks for supporting esports however I can't help but feel irritated by your post.
"Journalistic bias"
Well you need to get used to it, true journalism is long dead.
"Journalistic integrity"
Integr-what? I might have to remind you that unfortunately we live in a fucked up world where intergrity and similar values have been thrown in the trash can a long time ago. I don't even expect the motherfucking TV News to be unbiased, so I think talking about journalistic integrity is irrelevant in this particular case.
Theres so many replys to Alex post that all makes me so incredible sad for the future of western e-sports. Lets just hope that people in the position to actually affect the progress and development of e-sports isnt this simple minded.
Someone laying down the smack on kid Hod Bid; I fully support it.
Many of these staff members became involved with TL when they were kids many years ago. They need to realize they already ought to have grown up and now with SC2 TL also has a certain responsibility. Stop acting like kids. This site has a long tendency of bashing good players that beat fan favorites. It has always been disgusting and staff-supported. Please make it stop now with SC2.
I can totally see how you find that funny but this just reminds me how much I dislike Incontrol from the first time I saw him in an Interview. For me he represents the cliché American as many Europeans like to see.
(Sorry for bad English, I hope u understand what I mean)
On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote: Hey Everyone,
This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic.
As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent.
Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite.
Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias.
This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all.
To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity.
And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything.
(Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this)
-A
Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though .
People love TeamLiquid for the very reason that they do things their own way. I hope to god this place doesn't turn into a gotfrag clone. You're embarrassing your clan.
EPT
.
