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On November 16 2010 19:09 Corrupted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 19:00 tyrless wrote:On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote:
Hey Everyone,
This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic.
As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent.
Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite.
Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias.
This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all.
To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity.
And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything.
(Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this)
-A
TL.net may have elevated to the de facto standard-bearer of the SC westerner community, but they are a team and this is their site, so they have no obligation towards journalistic propriety. As a relatively new visitor (like most people probably who came in during the SC2 beta) I come here for simple reasons...site has a good layout the best community members posting frequently. The only standards they should hold by are their own, which judging by their success are just right..any bias towards their own team members is the exact opposite of extremely problematic. Nobody is stopping you from attempting to prop up the EG website as the bastion of integrity you think the SC community needs. pwnt.
i don't see pwnt.
On November 16 2010 19:15 tyrless wrote:Show nested quote +
I can totally see how you find that funny but this just reminds me how much I dislike Incontrol from the first time I saw him in an Interview. For me he represents the cliché American as many Europeans like to see.
Europeans have a cliche of Americans as witty and cut?
more like simple minded and ignorant
and this is how incontrol will look to you if you don't get his humour 
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On November 16 2010 19:15 kmkg wrote:
KyrixZenith vs SanZenith for a spot in the Ro64...
FoxeR is in a similar situation vs a prime clan member.
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On November 16 2010 19:12 zivac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 18:58 MrKn4rz wrote:On November 16 2010 18:29 zivac wrote:
artosis is vegetarian, it is real reason why he gets sick so often You believe everything you see in Television dont you? so, you believe vegetarians are more healthy than carnivors?
True. But I for myself dont call it "believe" rather then "knowing for a fact"
But I dont wanna start a discussion about HERE.
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Response to EGalex
+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote:Hey Everyone, This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic. As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent. Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite. Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias. This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all. To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity. And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything. (Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this) -A Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though  .
Its really hard to hold everyone to standards that one person deems as required. Since from person to person the bar might be higher or lower (i.e. requiring adding of said team's website [if any]). Also people love to use shorthand and Idra to most posters will be the easier to type out. Its good to see you reach out and express your feelings and im sure most of TL welcome another poster (even if it may just to bring up a concern). Still feel that all posters (unaffliated) should not have to fulfill the above standard and ultimately its up to the TL staff what standard they would like to set for their articles.
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On November 16 2010 19:13 arQ wrote:
Sigh. I guess the general community member is not ready to help move western e-sport up a notch.
Yeah, it's sad seeing such sheer and rude opposition to EGalex's post. He made a great point, and it's sad that people don't understand the message he was trying to communicate and can only see the little picture. Oh, and to everyone suddenly going to EG's website and trying to make EGalex out as being a total hypocrite, true, they could have had clan tags on player names, but
1. The EG website, in terms of popularity, is NOTHING compared to TL. TL is a massive community and news hub for all things BW/SC2.
2. If people actually read EGalex's post carefully, the clan tag thing was only a small part of what he was trying to say. He also made points about practicing more journalistic integrity and professionalism. It's sad how people are stuck on "ololol EG's website doesn't have clan tags, all your points are invalid".
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Im sure that TL doesnt mind attempting to be more aware of clan tags and sponsor tags. I dont see why they would refuse it. Im sure they even somewhat agree that it is better to have sponsors shown up front as it helps give value to sponsoring players. But all this recent garbage about TL owing professionalism to the "future of esports" is kinda sickening to me personally. Its like somebody smoking cigarettes their whole life, then they got famous, then all these people saying its their responsibility to not smoke to set a good example for kids.
I dont mind seeing TL bend over backwards for new players, new visitors, etc. But its a sad day if they ever start having to bend over forwards for them.
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On November 16 2010 19:15 kmkg wrote:
KyrixZenith vs SanZenith for a spot in the Ro64...
Epic...bring on the banelings Kyrix!
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EGalex's post, spoilered as it is wayy long.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote:Hey Everyone, This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic. As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent. Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite. Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias. This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all. To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity. And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything. (Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this) -A Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though .
I beleive a similair debate came up when some SC1 players changed their name in the transition from S1 to S2. Cool was being cool but later got accepted to be a fruitdealer. sSKS was being Tester and still 95% of the time refered to as Tester.
What was being concluded was that the community called a player by the name that they recognised him by. IdrA has always been just IdrA no matter his team, and less then 2 months in EG barely changes that. He is sometimes refered to as EG.IdrA but commonly known as just IdrA.
TL is a community site, not a news site, thus a player go by the name that the community decides to call him. Unless moderaters mass ban or mass edit posts there is no way to enforce a name, and in all honesty I dont think its TL's job to do so.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 16 2010 19:13 arQ wrote:
Sigh. I guess the general community member is not ready to help move western e-sport up a notch.
This. Everyone needs to take a step back and realise motbob = a person acting out of his love for esports by CONSTANTLY updating the thread, building the OP etc .. to suggest a playful joke (by a community member, not a TL employee) such as censoring a name is holding esports back; then wake up you sad keyboard warrior.. to cause such a flare up over such a small thing --> EGalex defs makes valid point; take it to the moderators - u said you met with Nazgul - sorry Liquid'Nazgul - at BlizzCon .. PM him, speak to a moderator; don't go ruining what is a pretty damn amazing thread..
Peace.
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Lyn and moon! Hopefully they actually prepare a lot this time there is so much more money to be made in SC2 than in WC3
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On November 16 2010 19:10 Gonodactylus wrote:
Someone laying down the smack on kid Hod Bid; I fully support it.
Many of these staff members became involved with TL when they were kids many years ago. They need to realize they already ought to have grown up and now with SC2 TL also has a certain responsibility. Stop acting like kids. This site has a long tendency of bashing good players that beat fan favorites. It has always been disgusting and staff-supported. Please make it stop now with SC2.
a) This is a private site, and they have no responsibility to uphold standards which YOU deem necessary.
b) This is not a coverage/news item. This is a forum thread created and maintained by an enthusiast/starcraft lover who does not get paid to do this. I think you should be literally thanking him and offering him free sexual favors for the INSANE work he has been doing, while the only job you guys have been doing is spamming F5 and doing armchair quarterbacking.
While I can understand to a certain extent where "egalex" is coming from, this is not the right place to post about it. The entire "Censored" thing was an inside joke which ran for about an hour at the most, and then reverted after some time.
Get off your high horses.
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daaaaamn Im just back from my appointment ... No I cant post my epic pictures with 4 HORSES ... FUUU AYA I was 99,9% Huk would make it .... Oh well
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On November 16 2010 19:15 kmkg wrote:
KyrixZenith vs SanZenith for a spot in the Ro64...
I wish I could watch this one, has potential for epic or for lols.
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Actually, if we look at the past seasons' statistics, this might be the best season for the Protoss. Why? Because, Zerg had the lowest number of players that qualified for the past two seasons and managed to won the tournament. If this trend continue, Protoss would be the champion of GSL 3.
OK, actually I want a Terran to win a GSL but at least I hope to see the protoss in top 4.
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Oh cool, 9 zergs, 6 terrans and 2 protosses qualified (as 1st post)
Ye, protoss imba... nerf moar
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 SlayerS_'BoxeR' up against 하유영, not sure who that is.
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I agree with the direction of EGalex's post but the clan tag reference is a little bit abstract and probably not the best focal point. It would be nice if the outright disrespect and trolling permitted towards professional players and their fans purely because they hold a different opinion was discouraged more heavily.
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I think people are missing the point of the whole censor AYA thing... I can assume it is suppose to be funny and epic ala TL worthy
so DO IT! :D
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2010 18:45 EGalex wrote:Hey Everyone, This is my first post on TL - long time reader, though (I don't usually participate on forums). For those of you who don't know me (probably, erm, every one of you), I'm the owner of Evil Geniuses... for those of you who watched the EG Masters' Cup stream so brilliantly produced by EG.SirScoots, I was "That Guy Behind The Broadcast Desk Who Didn't Want To Be On Cam." I've been involved in pro gaming for a long time now, and I decided to register my account on TL just now because I all of a sudden find this thread very problematic. As everyone here is probably aware, TL is a juggernaut SC entity in eSports, and "wears two hats," so to say, as both a professional team and a coverage website. Some would argue that its influence as a coverage website and community stretches further than the influence of its pro players. In any case, obviously the two identities are intertwined and overlap to a certain extent. Moving on (finally) to my point: as a very important, influential coverage hub focusing on what is currently pro gaming's most prevalent community, you can't be censoring players' names. I don't want to jump the gun and start waving around the "journalistic integrity" card prematurely, but I think it's pretty significant. Sure, TL isn't ESPN (yet), and sure, this is a forum-embedded community news piece updated by a very dedicated TL community member (for which I am grateful), but those - to me - are no excuse for throwing high standards of unbiased journalism to the side. It doesn't matter whether this is a forum post or a front-page news piece: you can't be censoring players' names or clan names just because they beat a community favorite. Unfortunately, this pattern isn't necessarily restricted to this particular thread. There is a very minor (albeit certainly noticeable) trend on TL of posters only ensuring that Liquid pro players have their clan name mentioned - I.E. HuK is always referred to in TL coverage as Liquid`HuK, whereas SeleCt, for example, has always been just "SeleCt" and never "Dignitas.SeleCt" (at least as far as I've seen). This seems to vary based on the player and the community's familiarity with said player - IdrA, for example, is always referred to be the TL coverage folks as "EGIdrA" (we at EG are thankful for this) - but it is certainly a consistent trend. TL players are always referred to as TL players, but players from other pro teams don't necessarily always have their team name attached to their alias. This is, of course, certainly *not* a case of intentional bias, and I'm not insinuating that it is in any way (I recently met Nazgul and several other TL executives at Blizzcon, and they held themselves with the utmost integrity and professionalism). At the end of the day, like many in this thread have pointed out, this is TL's home territory, and those covering competitions here ensure, first and foremost, that they point out what's going on with TL pro players. However, with that being said, sometimes intent is irrelevant (or close to it) when discussing matters of this matter - I.E., is neglecting to put in the care/effort to refer to SeleCt (for example) as Dignitas.SeleCt really any better than intentionally leaving out the team name? Maybe marginally better... but maybe not at all. To summarize this already too-long post, I think it's really important for everyone in this community to remember that TL, while still a team website, is definitively the SC2 coverage hub of the English-speaking world. And any kind of journalistic bias here, whether intentional or unintentional, whether major or extremely minor (as minor as censoring a player's name because he beat HuK today), whether coming from an official TL coverage staff member or a dedicated community member not officially affiliated with TL, is extremely, extremely problematic. With this website getting the amount of traffic and attention that it does get (and should get), the coverage here needs to be held to high standards of journalistic integrity. And at the end of the day, sure, this is TL's home base, and favoring TL's pro players in coverage posts - if it is desired to do so - may be TL's right... but doing something just because you have the power to ("just because you can") is really a very poor justification for doing anything. (Thanks to those of you who actually read all of this) -A Edit: In the time it took me to write all of this, the censorship was removed. I think the points are still valid, though .
Great points, though, I do think you have mistaken something facetious for something serious; in essence, making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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EPT
