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The situation sucks, MLG's excuse REALLY sucks, but c'mon.
THE PLAYERS SHOULD KNOW WHICH MAPS THEY ARE ALLOWED TO PLAY ON!
Allowing any result from a map which is not in the pre-determined pool cannot be allowed to stand, as this would set a horrible precedent for future tournaments. We could, for example, have players colluding to play on maps other than the allowed maps for whatever reason (balance, disagreement with tournament organizers on appropriate maps, etc.), even at the expense of a "warning," or whatever other punishment they face. Really, the players should have to replay the game AND receive a warning.
Did Painuser get a lucky break? Sort of. Its impossible to know if the same result would have happened had the game been played on a different map.
The only fair way to ensure that the rules are followed is to disallow any result achieved by breaking those rules.
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First I'd like to say that I really appreciate all of the attention that MLG is paying to the community about all of the feedback (especially taking the time to come to TL about it). Of course, there are things that many of us have been upset about (lack of seating, for example), but that doesn't change that MLG is really helping to get SC2 out there as a major e-sport event, and we all appreciate that. However, as gracious as you're being, I have to agree with the people who have pointed out, Lee, that you have a really strange "double tone" going on where you apologize and then try to say that it's not your fault at all because of how much you've been working so much. We realize that and we're sympathetic. But then you have people like Day[9] who go through even harder schedules and give apologies anyways. And look at the absolutely rabid following he has: it's for a reason.
Here are my gripes:
1) Inconsistency. If you want to be so strict about the rules then you should apply them equally. Who's to say that qxc being purple wasn't a huge advantage since he could blend into creep on the minimap unless the colors were changed via the green/red option? And chatting is another deal, since it sets a distinct tone between the players (are we talking casually like friends? Trash talking? Quiet and professional?).
2) Inflexibility. This goes hand in hand with the inconsistent bit. You really have to decide what times require judging versus what times require strict following. This was obviously a judgment call, so you got that somewhat right, but a horrible call was made. It should be in the rules about if something goes to judgment and who gets to judge it.
3) Paying attention to other tournaments. A lot of tournaments have a 3 minute rule, usually paired with a no contact clause. Essentially, a restart can only occur if there is some massive failure (power, Battle.net 2.0 in all its glory) or neither player even had the chance to get ahead. Not realizing for 13 minutes is unacceptable and completely out of the bounds of most other tournament rules. When something is so beyond the norm you should start thinking about if it makes sense before keeping it.
Again, I don't want to sound like a typical flamer. MLG is a huge force in North American e-sports and is really helping the development of a community that we all love. I bought the spectator pass, and, even though I haven't been able to go that much, it was pretty fun ("was" because I'll be driving back to Austin instead of staying and arriving back late). If MLG keeps on listening and improving, things will be amazing. Imagine a future where MLG has the same official status of either KeSPA (but without the ridiculous amount of tyranny) or the leagues of the "traditional sports" (AKA MLB, etc.). Keep on keeping on! Here's to the next season of StarCrafty goodness!
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Wow seriously, even though MLG messed up hard this time, how can anyone blame MLG for not following the chat rule... Stop being biased for 10 seconds and think about it, why on Earth would you want them to adhere to that rule? So Tyler can win? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would you have wanted the game to be paused and Huk to be immediately DQed during MLG DC when he said "Looks like the crowd wants a mothership"? NO! Select would have also been DQed from the finals when he said that "I have no zerg practice partners". There would have been only one LB final game and one Grand final game. If they had kept to the rules in both those, the flames MLG would have received would have been much worse than this.
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It sucks but we're all human and make mistakes, the good news is this mistake will bring up a potentially flawed rule and/or make sure that it doesnt happen again. Keep in mind sc2 is a new game, mlg just picked it up and these tournaments are improving every time. We as the community have to accept that this is all part of a learning process and be patient and while they continue to to work out the kinks. In the mean time we should focus on the positive things that have come out of the tournament which are some kickass games/matchups.
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On November 07 2010 17:07 WeeKeong wrote:
Wow seriously, even though MLG messed up hard this time, how can anyone blame MLG for not following the chat rule... Stop being biased for 10 seconds and think about it, why on Earth would you want them to adhere to that rule? So Tyler can win? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would you have wanted the game to be paused and Huk to be immediately DQed during MLG DC when he said "Looks like the crowd wants a mothership"? NO! Select would have also been DQed from the finals when he said that "I have no zerg practice partners". There would have been only one LB final game and one Grand final game. If they had kept to the rules in both those, the flames MLG would have received would have been much worse than this.
You are missing the point. As the organizer and/or administrator of an event, you can't follow some rules and ignore others, if you want to be taken seriously. That's hypocrisy, and it's good that they apologized and all, although they should first have done so to Tyler and Painuser, but beyond that nobody should try to sugar-coat the whole thing.
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On November 07 2010 17:07 WeeKeong wrote:
Wow seriously, even though MLG messed up hard this time, how can anyone blame MLG for not following the chat rule... Stop being biased for 10 seconds and think about it, why on Earth would you want them to adhere to that rule? So Tyler can win? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would you have wanted the game to be paused and Huk to be immediately DQed during MLG DC when he said "Looks like the crowd wants a mothership"? NO! Select would have also been DQed from the finals when he said that "I have no zerg practice partners". There would have been only one LB final game and one Grand final game. If they had kept to the rules in both those, the flames MLG would have received would have been much worse than this.
Rules are rules and should be followed, if they might get huge flames the rules can be ignored?
On November 07 2010 10:36 MLG_Lee wrote:
That said, the reason that it was a full reset was because that's what in the rules. A league is based on its credibility and its credibility comes from how closely it adheres to its rules. This rule left no room for discretion. We don't make up rules on the fly at the tournament. On the rare occasions where we don't have a rule for a given situation, the tournament admin and the league commissioner consult to make a call. But AFTER the event, we revisit the situation and then codify the rules.
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On November 07 2010 16:59 Char711 wrote:
Here are my gripes:
1) Inconsistency. If you want to be so strict about the rules then you should apply them equally. Who's to say that qxc being purple wasn't a huge advantage since he could blend into creep on the minimap unless the colors were changed via the green/red option? And chatting is another deal, since it sets a distinct tone between the players (are we talking casually like friends? Trash talking? Quiet and professional?).
I don't think the color issue is relevant at all to gameplay. As a high level player he should already have the color change to green/red on the minimap. So he wouldn't need to switch it. Also if he is the type of player who doesn't use it why would he have a problem now.
And the chatting issue from the games I saw none of the chatting had an role on the actual game. It was just friendly chatting between friends/teammates. It would be different if someone actually trashtalked though.
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They have to follow the rule, however I believe it should be looked into after this tournament.
My question is, why can't it be similar to the disconnect rule, i.e. if someone were to disconnect, the tournament officials see if one person was going to win it, with a clear advantages. If this were the case, they would declare the winner. If it was basically even, then they reset.
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Yeah ^^. I'm more curious how the two players and the two casters, etc did not realize what the map pool was. I'm almost certain no one is to blame here as its kind of up in the air. I am not sure how the pool works, but I would expect the players to want to know what map was coming up in their next round, etc.
But, its certainly not the admins' fault for handling an awkward situation. Restarts happen all the time in esports when a player disconnects, etc. You can't get mad at their decision and compare it to something completely unrelated. It's not a matter of following rules, its this specific situation. They had to rectify it someone's mistake, and they did a fine job. Not to mention Tyler handled it like a pro, I really admire him for that and he will be going far in this tourney still!
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On November 07 2010 17:20 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:07 WeeKeong wrote:
Wow seriously, even though MLG messed up hard this time, how can anyone blame MLG for not following the chat rule... Stop being biased for 10 seconds and think about it, why on Earth would you want them to adhere to that rule? So Tyler can win? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would you have wanted the game to be paused and Huk to be immediately DQed during MLG DC when he said "Looks like the crowd wants a mothership"? NO! Select would have also been DQed from the finals when he said that "I have no zerg practice partners". There would have been only one LB final game and one Grand final game. If they had kept to the rules in both those, the flames MLG would have received would have been much worse than this. Rules are rules and should be followed, if they might get huge flames the rules can be ignored? Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 10:36 MLG_Lee wrote:
That said, the reason that it was a full reset was because that's what in the rules. A league is based on its credibility and its credibility comes from how closely it adheres to its rules. This rule left no room for discretion. We don't make up rules on the fly at the tournament. On the rare occasions where we don't have a rule for a given situation, the tournament admin and the league commissioner consult to make a call. But AFTER the event, we revisit the situation and then codify the rules.
So in DC, Huk and Select should have DQed their games after they chatted? There would have been an even greater shitstorm. Not all rules should be followed, in the NBA, for major playoff games, refs often let touch fouls go by because they want to make the game more exciting for the AUDIENCE. When players have 6 technical fouls in the playoffs, refs try their hardest not to give players their 7th which would make them unable to play for 2 games. Sometimes, rules should not be followed, including the rule making Tyler replay the game he was going to win.
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MLG_Lee if i may suggest, can you please have someone work that bracket like the ESL page. It's impossible to get a replay and then scroll down ALL the way to get the next set of replays from a particular player. I can't even make sense of the brackets (Google Chrome esp), that would be really nice.
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On November 07 2010 17:31 WeeKeong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:20 JackDino wrote:On November 07 2010 17:07 WeeKeong wrote:
Wow seriously, even though MLG messed up hard this time, how can anyone blame MLG for not following the chat rule... Stop being biased for 10 seconds and think about it, why on Earth would you want them to adhere to that rule? So Tyler can win? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would you have wanted the game to be paused and Huk to be immediately DQed during MLG DC when he said "Looks like the crowd wants a mothership"? NO! Select would have also been DQed from the finals when he said that "I have no zerg practice partners". There would have been only one LB final game and one Grand final game. If they had kept to the rules in both those, the flames MLG would have received would have been much worse than this. Rules are rules and should be followed, if they might get huge flames the rules can be ignored? On November 07 2010 10:36 MLG_Lee wrote:
That said, the reason that it was a full reset was because that's what in the rules. A league is based on its credibility and its credibility comes from how closely it adheres to its rules. This rule left no room for discretion. We don't make up rules on the fly at the tournament. On the rare occasions where we don't have a rule for a given situation, the tournament admin and the league commissioner consult to make a call. But AFTER the event, we revisit the situation and then codify the rules.
So in DC, Huk and Select should have DQed their games after they chatted? There would have been an even greater shitstorm. Not all rules should be followed, in the NBA, for major playoff games, refs often let touch fouls go by because they want to make the game more exciting for the AUDIENCE. When players have 6 technical fouls in the playoffs, refs try their hardest not to give players their 7th which would make them unable to play for 2 games. Sometimes, rules should not be followed, including the rule making Tyler replay the game he was going to win.
Yes, Huk and Select should've been DQ'd as them breaking the rules and just playing has now obviously affected MLG's credibility. It's MLG's stand to enforce their own rule, every single one of them, not mine. Why they post something like the OP and then just ignore other rules is something that makes no sense @ all. If they can ignore 1 rule they can ignore others.
Mistakes do happen yes, but why ignore some rules and enforce others which aren't good for anyone at all.
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On November 07 2010 17:36 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:31 WeeKeong wrote:On November 07 2010 17:20 JackDino wrote:On November 07 2010 17:07 WeeKeong wrote:
Wow seriously, even though MLG messed up hard this time, how can anyone blame MLG for not following the chat rule... Stop being biased for 10 seconds and think about it, why on Earth would you want them to adhere to that rule? So Tyler can win? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would you have wanted the game to be paused and Huk to be immediately DQed during MLG DC when he said "Looks like the crowd wants a mothership"? NO! Select would have also been DQed from the finals when he said that "I have no zerg practice partners". There would have been only one LB final game and one Grand final game. If they had kept to the rules in both those, the flames MLG would have received would have been much worse than this. Rules are rules and should be followed, if they might get huge flames the rules can be ignored? On November 07 2010 10:36 MLG_Lee wrote:
That said, the reason that it was a full reset was because that's what in the rules. A league is based on its credibility and its credibility comes from how closely it adheres to its rules. This rule left no room for discretion. We don't make up rules on the fly at the tournament. On the rare occasions where we don't have a rule for a given situation, the tournament admin and the league commissioner consult to make a call. But AFTER the event, we revisit the situation and then codify the rules.
So in DC, Huk and Select should have DQed their games after they chatted? There would have been an even greater shitstorm. Not all rules should be followed, in the NBA, for major playoff games, refs often let touch fouls go by because they want to make the game more exciting for the AUDIENCE. When players have 6 technical fouls in the playoffs, refs try their hardest not to give players their 7th which would make them unable to play for 2 games. Sometimes, rules should not be followed, including the rule making Tyler replay the game he was going to win. Yes, Huk and Select should've been DQ'd as them breaking the rules and just playing has now obviously affected MLG's credibility. It's MLG's stand to enforce their own rule, every single one of them, not mine. Why they post something like the OP and then just ignore other rules is something that makes no sense @ all. If they can ignore 1 rule they can ignore others. Mistakes do happen yes, but why ignore some rules and enforce others which aren't good for anyone at all.
Because their OP was a mistake too, they should just say "Sorry, unlike chat, a different map actually affects the outcome of a game".
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Huk's chat played a major role in determining the outcome of that game imo.
So could qxc's colour.
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sucks for tyler, no doubt, but they did the correct thing. gotta keep it consistent.
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On November 07 2010 17:39 WeeKeong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 17:36 JackDino wrote:On November 07 2010 17:31 WeeKeong wrote:On November 07 2010 17:20 JackDino wrote:On November 07 2010 17:07 WeeKeong wrote:
Wow seriously, even though MLG messed up hard this time, how can anyone blame MLG for not following the chat rule... Stop being biased for 10 seconds and think about it, why on Earth would you want them to adhere to that rule? So Tyler can win? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Would you have wanted the game to be paused and Huk to be immediately DQed during MLG DC when he said "Looks like the crowd wants a mothership"? NO! Select would have also been DQed from the finals when he said that "I have no zerg practice partners". There would have been only one LB final game and one Grand final game. If they had kept to the rules in both those, the flames MLG would have received would have been much worse than this. Rules are rules and should be followed, if they might get huge flames the rules can be ignored? On November 07 2010 10:36 MLG_Lee wrote:
That said, the reason that it was a full reset was because that's what in the rules. A league is based on its credibility and its credibility comes from how closely it adheres to its rules. This rule left no room for discretion. We don't make up rules on the fly at the tournament. On the rare occasions where we don't have a rule for a given situation, the tournament admin and the league commissioner consult to make a call. But AFTER the event, we revisit the situation and then codify the rules.
So in DC, Huk and Select should have DQed their games after they chatted? There would have been an even greater shitstorm. Not all rules should be followed, in the NBA, for major playoff games, refs often let touch fouls go by because they want to make the game more exciting for the AUDIENCE. When players have 6 technical fouls in the playoffs, refs try their hardest not to give players their 7th which would make them unable to play for 2 games. Sometimes, rules should not be followed, including the rule making Tyler replay the game he was going to win. Yes, Huk and Select should've been DQ'd as them breaking the rules and just playing has now obviously affected MLG's credibility. It's MLG's stand to enforce their own rule, every single one of them, not mine. Why they post something like the OP and then just ignore other rules is something that makes no sense @ all. If they can ignore 1 rule they can ignore others. Mistakes do happen yes, but why ignore some rules and enforce others which aren't good for anyone at all. Because their OP was a mistake too, they should just say "Sorry, unlike chat, a different map actually affects the outcome of a game".
Albit not big, chat can affect the outcome of a game aswell(distractions, trashtalk etc).
Enforcing that one rule like they did yesterday could've had a psychological effect which could've effected the outcome of the rest of the series aswell.
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On November 07 2010 17:49 dtz wrote:
Huk's chat played a major role in determining the outcome of that game imo.
So could qxc's colour.
How? Don't just say something. Explain it. I didn't watch the game with huk and I don't know what he said.
But for qxc's color. In no way could it affect anything whatsoever with the game's result except if a player had some superstition or supposed bad luck/good luck with some color.
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On November 07 2010 17:26 justinpal wrote:
Yeah ^^. I'm more curious how the two players and the two casters, etc did not realize what the map pool was. I'm almost certain no one is to blame here as its kind of up in the air. I am not sure how the pool works, but I would expect the players to want to know what map was coming up in their next round, etc.
Ok, here's my POV, I played (and lost) in the early stages. Working under the assumption the important matches function in the same way as mine did I see it playing out this way:
The way it worked for me was an official just told us what the first map was. It was fairly informal. On top of that, the main screen matches were played at the same time as matches of a DIFFERENT round (the mains screen match during my losers bracket was a winners match, for example) so its quite possible the officials just got confused. Its very possible they told the players the wrong map, and the players went with it.
They didn't have the overlay up for the first match, I think that someone realized the overlay should be up, realized it said Xelnaga, and then pointed it out.
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On November 07 2010 17:49 dtz wrote:
So could qxc's colour.
His opponent could always just turn on the feature that makes your own color green and the opponent's red. Many pros do this because red shows up really well on the minimap. I don't think players should have to pick colors at all. I understand that it is for the fans to visually see who is favored, but I like having a certain color to associate with a player. Ex pink for Machine or purple for qxc. Qxc is the reason i have always used purple terran 
On topic, I think that MLG did what they had to do in the situation, even though it is pretty terrible that it wasn't caught sooner by any party involved.
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On November 07 2010 17:20 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 16:59 Char711 wrote:
Here are my gripes:
1) Inconsistency. If you want to be so strict about the rules then you should apply them equally. Who's to say that qxc being purple wasn't a huge advantage since he could blend into creep on the minimap unless the colors were changed via the green/red option? And chatting is another deal, since it sets a distinct tone between the players (are we talking casually like friends? Trash talking? Quiet and professional?).
I don't think the color issue is relevant at all to gameplay. As a high level player he should already have the color change to green/red on the minimap. So he wouldn't need to switch it. Also if he is the type of player who doesn't use it why would he have a problem now. And the chatting issue from the games I saw none of the chatting had an role on the actual game. It was just friendly chatting between friends/teammates. It would be different if someone actually trashtalked though.
You're missing my point. It's that color could have an effect. Not everyone changes the color. The map could have no effect, but maybe it completely changes things. It's not a question of if it did but if there's a possibility.
And you made my point for me on the chatting: it's something that definitely could have an effect, especially as SC2 and MLG grow.
To be clear, yes, I don't think those are really that big of a deal. It's just that, when you have Lee being very clear about following rules, you have to carry that over. It would be different if there wasn't such a hardline being presented. What I mentioned does have a possibility to give someone that small edge, but it ultimately comes down to policy decisions.
I hereby decree that we call this MAPGATE! Because every good blunder needs to be a "-gate." 
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EPT
