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On May 09 2010 23:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
How on earth can Artosis can expect a player to go against the referee decision in his disadvantage. 'due to personnal differences' made me laugh so hard.
Artosis expects fair play, nazgul expects fair play, everybody plays and watches on this sc2 tournament that is put together by this community expects fair play.
This is only a big deal because fair play had been violated. The rules design to protect the idea of fair play is not the idea itself. You need to distinguish between the rules and the idea these rules are trying to protect.
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On May 09 2010 23:11 Beatus wrote:
Slush vs Artosis in a bo9.
I'm sure everyone would like to see that after what happened and considering the number of people that will watch this. I'm sure TL can put a decent amount of money for the winner.
artosis already declined an offer to do a showmatch vs slush.
I for one would be really happy about a Artosis vs CauthonLuck showmatch
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On May 09 2010 22:03 UbiNax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 22:01 Smikis wrote:
how could you say that slush had no chance to recover.. thats pure nonsense.. slush had 3800 minerals, compared to 800 from artosis, both of them had just about 1 -2 base mining, cuz mutas killed of all workers artosis had, just before crash, artosis hydras were on attack, but im 90% sure they would lost to mutas + roaches ( if they won, and then crashed.. yes game is over.. but if mutas won , slush not only could recovered , he could easily won.. )
i dont see how there was 99% chance of no comeback..
all this topic suggest is whine and flame a lot.. and you will accomplish this.. duo hehehe i think you got it wrong, there was " NO way slushs army comp could have won vs artosis' and yes he had 3k mins but he had 2 bases mining from 1 which would go down after artosis won the fight, artosis had more drones and 6 hatcherys no way.
dont underestimate mutas, in high numbers they obliterate everything , you talk like having 5 bases, with no incone, vs having 2 bases, vs huge ammount of money is different.. artosis needed to remake drones.. and army.. with no money.. slush needed to remake hatches and army, with plenty of money he had.. and if he had won with mutas, he could kept harassing..
all artosis did was suicide 20+ roaches, to kill few hatcheries..
so next time ill send my army to die.. for 350 minerals building, then i just dc, claiming i won.. cuz i have more bases? lmao..
not to mention food was almost equal, slush had 118? and artosis 130? ( half of those 130 probably was hatching, so in reality he didnt had that much of army.. nor any money.. )
why dont you guys test, who wins in that last battle, hydras or mutas + roaches..
if artosis dced 30s latter, aka after that battle, game would been different.. he either won, or lost the game.. obviously, who would give him a loss, if he lost all his army, had no money.. and he had 20+ mutas harassing him.. obviously noone would give him loss.. he would get rematch.
but game would been clearly over for him by then
so why should slush get a loss cuz he lost 3 hatches, and artosis saced all army just to do it?
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United States43962 Posts
On May 09 2010 22:49 rei wrote:
@KwarK I can't believe you didn't do more if you were the ref in that situation to protect what we value as fair play. Seems to me that you were the most knowledgeable ref in terms of game play at the time and you allowed someone to hide inside the rules to evade fair play. The very same rules in which we implement to protect the very same fair play. If the rules that designed to protect fair play is being abuse to prevent fair play, then the rules in this particular case has lost all its meaning. The difference between a wise judge and a tough judge is that the wise judge will recognize this relationship between the rules and will choose to protect the idea the rules seek to protect. Not blindly protect the rules themselves.
At very least you can take the replay and give it to day9 or Chill.
@Slush Look at nony as an example of what fair play is.
PS. go watch red belt slush, it's a good movie.
What I'm criticising here is the suggestion that the refs made an uninformed or hasty decision because it was neither, despite the suggestions of Artosis to the contrary. The ref decision was not to make an exception to the rules of the tournament in this situation because Slush felt he still had a chance. This was made after taking into consideration both Artosis' opinion that he had the game won and my opinion that Artosis should be awarded the win. The conclusion that the refs came to in the end was to follow the rules and that was a legitimate decision in the circumstances. It wasn't the decision I would have made but it was certainly a valid one.
I just dislike the implication that the refs weren't good enough at sc2 to understand the situation when it was factors external to the game (that it was Artosis who dced and that Slush felt he still had a chance) that swung the decision. As much as Artosis insisted that everyone else was bad last night (lolchatlogs) that was him simply refusing to listen to what we were saying.
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On May 09 2010 Beatus wrote:
Slush vs Artosis in a bo9.
I'm sure everyone would like to see that after what happened and considering the number of people that will watch this. I'm sure TL can put a decent amount of money for the winner.
What's the point? They already regamed, Slush won.
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United States43962 Posts
On May 09 2010 23:02 odder wrote:
If it were Slush that DC'd, would there still be a re-game?
Losing player DCs, winning player wins.
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On May 09 2010 11:45 Kishime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 11:37 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: We have offered Artosis a showmatch with the winner of TLI with prizes at stake. Unfortunately due to their 'personal differences' Artosis isn't interested in playing with Slush. That is absurd. He needs to grow up.
Wasn't that obvious by the shitstorm he raised?
Refs in any sport, real or esport, are going to make mistakes. You've just gotta move past it, go out, and win anyways. Any professional athlete will tell you that.
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Maybe "we" should donate Artosis 100-200$? We can't know what would've happened, if win was given to Artosis, but it could also serve as "prize" of getting esports ahead... (sorry bad english =S)
edit: I am also wondering why everyone are flaming Slush. I haven't seen replay, but if I think I have even slight chance I would stay in the game. It would be very mannered to give win to Artosis after he DC'ed, but I think very few people would give win to opponent, after someone announces that you've awarded with win.
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On May 09 2010 23:14 KwarK wrote:
What I'm criticising here is the suggestion that the refs made an uninformed or hasty decision because it was neither, despite the suggestions of Artosis to the contrary. The ref decision was not to make an exception to the rules of the tournament in this situation because Slush felt he still had a chance. This was made after taking into consideration both Artosis' opinion that he had the game won and my opinion that Artosis should be awarded the win. The conclusion that the refs came to in the end was to follow the rules and that was a legitimate decision in the circumstances. It wasn't the decision I would have made but it was certainly a valid one.
I just dislike the implication that the refs weren't good enough at sc2 to understand the situation when it was factors external to the game (that it was Artosis who dced and that Slush felt he still had a chance) that swung the decision. As much as Artosis insisted that everyone else was bad last night (lolchatlogs) that was him simply refusing to listen to what we were saying.
This.
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On May 09 2010 23:13 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 23:11 Beatus wrote:
Slush vs Artosis in a bo9.
I'm sure everyone would like to see that after what happened and considering the number of people that will watch this. I'm sure TL can put a decent amount of money for the winner. artosis already declined an offer to do a showmatch vs slush. I for one would be really happy about a Artosis vs CauthonLuck showmatch
Well he was probably still mad about the whole thing, maybe in a few days he will realise that it is the fair thing to do because I don't think giving him a showmatch against CanthonLuck is really fair.
"Hey we made a mistake, sorry for that, there is your free ticket for the final, glhf"
Dosen't sounds really fair to me.
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Anyone arguing that Slush was still in this game is a clueless newbie.
It's over.. lets move on.
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Just watched the replay. At the end when he is about to lose his last mining base and get his mutas obliterated by Artosis' hydras Slush says something along the lines"What do we do?" or "Whats gonna happen." Seriously dude? My respect for him as a player dropped to 0 at that point. Both players knew the game was officially GG in about 15 seconds. Don't play dumb and hope for a regame on a technicality... man(ner) up and take the loss.
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@kwark
We all love the emotional out burst of idra and artosis. I fully support how TL handle the situation from the initial decision to nazgul's post on this thread. TL is showing the community they value fair play. but i just feel that if chill and day9 was bought into the decision, this could have been a better situation. Pretty sure artosis is not ganna call day9 not good enough if day9 happened to favor a rematch.
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On May 09 2010 12:09 Tone_ wrote:
Seems like it was a heated response from Artosis towards TL and apologies from both are necessary.
I think it was up to sLush to concede graciously and it is actually there that the issue lies.
Why? He's not required to concede because of some misguided honor.
Do football players concede even if they win because of a bad call?
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On May 09 2010 21:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
If you want an example of a sport where players regularly self-report, it's Ultimate Frisbee.
Oh man. This post sums up exactly how nerdy Starcraft players are.
When you have to use Ultimate Frisbee as an example, you're probably better off just not posting anything.
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I didn't see the game in quesiton, but I'm amazed at the suggestions of "Disqualify Slush"...
Is it his fault the game ended? No. He did nothing wrong. He left it up to the refs, whose job it is to make that call, and that decision to leave it to the refs is perfectly justified if he had imperfect information (as posted by ETT). I then saw him earn several more uncontroversial wins, including the rematch with Artosis, all the way to the crown. He earned that prize money and didn't "cheese" his way there at all.
I know Artosis is cool and well loved in the community, but the root cause of the whole problem lies with his equipment. If his equipment/connection is that bad, why'd he accept the invite in the first place if he wasn't willing to recognize the potential and/or likely problems?
I don't blame either of the contestants. Based on ETT's posts, Slush did absolutely nothing wrong. Artosis also did nothing wrong in game. TL admins publicly admit to a mistake and try to make amends as best as they can, which is commendable. If anything, I'm kind disappointed in Artosis' refusal of a revenge showmatch with prize money on the line. Ok, so it doesn't give him a shot at the crown but it does give him a shot at the money (and honestly, 10 years from now, no one's going to remember who won in any of the Beta tourneys...)
The character attacks by many posters are unnecessary, though.
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people keep saying, "refs in all sports make bad decisions and the players just deal with it" and while it may be true that that is the case, is it something we -want- to be the case?
to be honest, i would rather have my authorative body of judges like this, who admit when they have been wrong when they have, and who try to rectify the situation, rather than just sit high and mighty on their chair an pretend to be beyond reproach.
gj tl, and gj naz for sticking to your guns during the tournament (which is essential) but at the same time, being able to look back in hindsight, and correct mistakes that were made.
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When you have to use Ultimate Frisbee as an example, you're probably better off just not posting anything.
Shh. Ultimate Frisbee can be used as an example for anything.
His example was actually relevant, as self-reporting is existent in certain activities.
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On May 09 2010 23:14 KwarK wrote:
As much as Artosis insisted that everyone else was bad last night (lolchatlogs) that was him simply refusing to listen to what we were saying.
honestly when I read the chat logs Brood posted I felt more like you (ETT or who it was Artosis was talking to) were refusing to do what he wanted, which was to discuss the game more thoroughly.
I dont really get why there is still so much discussion, Nazgul made such a good OP...
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On May 09 2010 12:49 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 12:41 Eury wrote:
You don't seem to understand what 100% means. That would mean that it was theoretical impossible for Slush to win, which just isn't the case. That would mean that even if you played the game trillion after trillion of times, Slush would never ever win the match. I have seen bigger comebacks than that in Starcraft before, and there have been way less than a trillion games played in the history of Starcraft..
This isnt a mathematics lecture. Leave the technicalities and semantics at the door please. Practically speaking, Artosis had the game won, 100%. If the game was played trillions of times, slush might have won a few. If the game was played a million times, he probably would not have. Have you even seen the replay? There haven't been many (if any) comebacks from a position as bad as that which Slush found himself in...
I've seen progamers lose after being further ahead. Unlikely? Yeah. Impossible? Nah, its not like Artosis was destroying the last few buildings when he DCed.
and hell, what about the Louder/Huk game later? Didn't everyone think the game was basically over after Huk lost his warp prism with 2 immortals?
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EPT
