Slush vs Artosis - Page 21

PanzerDragoon

United States822 Posts

May 09 2010 14:36 GMT

#401

On May 09 2010 12:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I'd like to take a moment to apologize to TL.net staff about the way I responded to this issue. My stance on it polarized me against them and when I didn't gain any ground with somewhat civil discussion, I dropped all civility.

My suggestions:
(1) Artosis vs Cauthonluck showmatch. Call it the TLI finals in an alternate reality.*
(2) Disqualify Slush and bump everyone else up one place. If virtually everyone agrees that Artosis won that game, then virtually everyone agrees that Slush was in fact eliminated at the conclusion of that game. What actually happened is more important than what the ref called. I understand that there are good reasons to not continue to ref the match so long after its conclusion, but given the strong consensus that Artosis won, or more relevantly that Slush lost, I think it's worth considering.

*sorry Louder please don't take offense to this =]

You can't fucking just take back the tournament and say sorry SLush, you get fucking nothing because we fucked up after playing the entire rest of the tourney.

That would be a bigger fucking bullshit flipflop than what originally happened to Artosis.

StormsInJuly

Sweden165 Posts

May 09 2010 14:37 GMT

#402

Congratulations to slush for winning and playing excellent games, I wish artosis hadn't acted so childish and immature over a regame, it kinda detracts from Slush's hard earned win and sours what should have been a fun tournament.

Lets be honest, had artosis truly been confident in his ability to beat slush he wouldn't have been so up in arms over a simple regame and he certainly wouldn't be this scared for a showmatch to determine who is really the best player.
In my opinion he should EITHER play this showmatch OR stop trash talking slush. I've never seen anyone throw this big a tantrum over something like this before

PanzerDragoon

United States822 Posts

May 09 2010 14:42 GMT

#403

On May 09 2010 13:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:

Show nested quote +

I know that following the precedent of similar organizations/events often produces the best results, but it should never be the strongest reason for doing something. I think it would be best to first consider what the most just outcome is, considering only the details of this particular event. If you feel that it is more just to keep Slush as your champion than to disqualify him, then it's perfectly good to solidify your initial conclusion by seeing that it agrees with precedents. But if you think it might be more just to disqualify him, I think it's a mistake to overrule that thinking with precedents.

The reason other sports do that is because if they go back and redo a game well after the outcome because of a mistake, then every game starts getting called into question and asked for a re-do because you can find questionable calls everywhere. There are less ref decisions in Starcraft, obviously, but it will still be an administrative headache.

See.Blue

United States2673 Posts

May 09 2010 14:42 GMT

#404

Great response, TL. You guys on the staff continue to comport yourselves with remarkable professionalism, I'm proud for this site and community. As for Artosis, while he obviously has the right to turn down a showmatch, the fact that he had to indicate that it was because of 'differences' with Slush is pathetic. It's a shame to see someone you previously respected and admired act like that, I've lost a lot if not all of my respect for him as an individual.

leetchaos

United States395 Posts

May 09 2010 14:46 GMT

#405

On May 09 2010 23:42 See.Blue wrote:
Great response, TL. You guys on the staff continue to comport yourselves with remarkable professionalism, I'm proud for this site and community. As for Artosis, while he obviously has the right to turn down a showmatch, the fact that he had to indicate that it was because of 'differences' with Slush is pathetic. It's a shame to see someone you previously respected and admired act like that, I've lost a lot if not all of my respect for him as an individual.

Watch the replay. I was thinking the same thing as you until I did.

KwarK

United States44400 Posts

May 09 2010 14:48 GMT

#406

On May 09 2010 23:34 7mk wrote:

Show nested quote +

honestly when I read the chat logs Brood posted I felt more like you (ETT or who it was Artosis was talking to) were refusing to do what he wanted, which was to discuss the game more thoroughly.

I dont really get why there is still so much discussion, Nazgul made such a good OP...

For reference.
+ Show Spoiler +

KwarK Artosis i was a ref, i watched the rep and i consider myself a decent player
KwarK Artosis and i thought you won it
KwarK Artosis and i made that recommendation
Artosis KwarK ok so
Artosis KwarK who overruled
Artosis KwarK ?
KwarK Artosis the problem is that it was you who disced
KwarK Artosis rather than a neutral disc
KwarK Artosis refs put a huge amount of debate into it
KwarK Artosis and that has to be respected
Artosis KwarK no
KwarK Artosis it wasn't just an ignorance thing
Artosis KwarK why would i respect that dude
Artosis KwarK yeah it was
KwarK Artosis we noticed the hydra were 3-2
Artosis KwarK every single player
Artosis KwarK of ANY skill
KwarK Artosis whereas the muta were 1-0
Artosis KwarK will say i won 100%
Artosis KwarK yes
Artosis KwarK it wAS OVER
Artosis KwarK HE CANT STOP THOSE HYDRAS
Artosis KwarK 100%
KwarK Artosis yes
KwarK Artosis i kno
KwarK Artosis w
Artosis KwarK ONE HUNDRED FUCKING PERCENT
KwarK Artosis which is why i made the recommendation i did
Artosis KwarK who overruled
Artosis KwarK tell me pls
Artosis KwarK ive been robbed
Artosis KwarK of 300$
Artosis KwarK and fame
Artosis KwarK fucking easy tournament
Artosis KwarK i get fucked out of
KwarK Artosis question is whether the refs are willing to ever award a win to a player who disconnected
KwarK Artosis the answer is no
KwarK Artosis apparently
Artosis KwarK they are retarded
KwarK Artosis regardless of how over it was
Artosis KwarK + wrong
KwarK Artosis they're still the refs
Artosis KwarK dont fucking care man
Artosis KwarK wow
Artosis KwarK lol
Artosis KwarK u flamed me in the thread
Artosis KwarK ur a fuckin newb huh?
KwarK Artosis lol
KwarK Artosis you delayed it for ages
Artosis KwarK ur retarded
KwarK Artosis ref has the final word
KwarK Artosis lol
Artosis KwarK thats retarded too
Artosis KwarK who made that fucking retarded rule
KwarK Artosis the refs

Artosis KwarK not 1 good player had a say
Artosis KwarK in what happened
Artosis KwarK they are fucking newbies
KwarK Artosis lol
Artosis KwarK thats like having me decide a soccer match
Artosis KwarK as if i know a fucking thing about soccer
KwarK Artosis i'm comparable to several players in this tournament
KwarK Artosis and it's not like refs didn't understand your hydra were gonna win
Artosis KwarK so then they are even more faggoty
KwarK Artosis slippery slopes are combatted by absolute rules
KwarK Artosis if you'll give a win for 99% over you'll give one for 98 etc
Artosis KwarK no
Artosis KwarK its bullshit
KwarK Artosis whereas "never benefit from a disconnect" is simple
Artosis KwarK its bullshit and ur arguement isnt valid
Artosis KwarK nope
Artosis KwarK fuck that
Artosis KwarK its not my fault
KwarK Artosis it wasn't my argument
Artosis KwarK sc2 beta is BUGGY
KwarK Artosis i said you should get the win
KwarK Artosis but their decision wasn't stupid, it's just they had different priorities
KwarK Artosis they were aware you were going to win, they just didn't care
Artosis KwarK stop talking to me kwark
Artosis KwarK ur not a player
Artosis KwarK if u were ud side with me
KwarK Artosis lol
KwarK Artosis i did

Artosis KwarK then dont fucking argue with me
Artosis KwarK go flame them for being stupid

SmoKim

Denmark10307 Posts

May 09 2010 14:50 GMT

#407

The sad thing is that i have a bad feeling that Slush are gonna get flamed and hated in the future because of this situation, and that is even more unfair. I really really REALLY hope that people will avoid making him the big bad wolf and hate on him

I can already see him being in TSL and people jumping the bandwagon and never let this issue go. Would love to have a statement from him and/or Artosis so we could move on

Sadist

United States7328 Posts

May 09 2010 14:51 GMT

#408

On May 09 2010 23:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:

Show nested quote +

Shh. Ultimate Frisbee can be used as an example for anything.

His example was actually relevant, as self-reporting is existent in certain activities.

golf only~~~~~

Deadlift

United States358 Posts

May 09 2010 14:51 GMT

#409

I have a few thoughts.

1. Anyone who thinks Slush had a 0% chance of winning does not know what 0% means. If he attacked Artosis' units head on, he would not win, but perhaps if he went after one of Artosis' other bases he could make Artosis panic and slip up. Would Artosis slip up most of the time? No. Would Artosis slip up atleast 1% of the time? Yes. Although Artosis' play can be as boring as a robot, (No rush 22 minutes!) he still makes human mistakes.

2. If someone insults you and says you played like garbage, do you really think you would concede the game to them even if they were favored? There's a pretty low chance anyone is going to concede a game with a monetary prize in the first place, but if the other person is hounding you like a baby and saying that they clearly won, there is an even LESS chance you're going to concede.

3. I'm curious to see what everyone would do in this situation. I anticipate a lot of people saying they would concede when they would actually take the rematch if it came down to it.

Poll: Given the situation, if you were Slush would you have conceded?

No (146)

55%

Yes (87)

33%

I honestly don't know (31)

12%

264 total votes

Your vote: Given the situation, if you were Slush would you have conceded?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): I honestly don't know

See.Blue

United States2673 Posts

May 09 2010 15:02 GMT

#410

On May 09 2010 23:46 leetchaos wrote:

Show nested quote +

Watch the replay. I was thinking the same thing as you until I did.

It's more a matter of reading the chat logs floating around. I don't care how much he had it in the bag, I have no respect for anyone who behaves like that, irrespective of how talented they may be. There are something like 3 logs now floating around, one on this page, of Artosis having temper tantrums at other people who are completely composed but just telling him things he doesn't like to hear. That's not how winners act, full stop.

7mk

Germany10157 Posts

May 09 2010 15:04 GMT

#411

On May 09 2010 23:48 KwarK wrote:

Show nested quote +

For reference.
+ Show Spoiler +

Artosis KwarK then dont fucking argue with me
Artosis KwarK go flame them for being stupid

Ok, he certainly goes a step further in this conversation.
But that doesnt mean hes wrong and I think we should indeed keep in mind that this is a beta after all. Who's to say that this didnt simply happen because its a bugged beta, I got disconnected several times, especially post patch 11 without no freakin reason whatsoever and I disagree that the person who disconnects should never get the win.

Again I simply agree 100% with everything Nazgul said in the OP.

Artosis handled himself poorly because he puts his whole heart into this game, that doesnt mean hes wrong, although I can see how it must have been difficult dealing with him

bitter[KALT]

United States138 Posts

May 09 2010 15:05 GMT

#412

On May 10 2010 00:02 See.Blue wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's more a matter of reading the chat logs floating around. I don't care how much he had it in the bag, I have no respect for anyone who behaves like that, irrespective of how talented they may be. There are something like 3 logs now floating around, one on this page, showing Artosis having temper tantrums. That's not how winners act, full stop.

Exactly that. Artosis wants to be a professional gamer. That was not professional just childish nerd rage.

Everybody has to deal with questionable decisions once in a while. Gotta take em like a man.

Icx

Belgium853 Posts

May 09 2010 15:05 GMT

#413

Can't we just leave as it is?

It happened, get over it. Teamliquid has apologized and said that they will take measures so that this doesn't happen again in the future.

Yes, artosis could have handled it better, but in such situations, sometimes emotions just overrule your logical thinking and you start saying things that you normally wouldn't do.

I honestly have no idea what more has to be said about this, because as I see it it just ends up in some artosis or tournament admin bashing.

DarkPlasmaBall

United States46620 Posts

May 09 2010 15:05 GMT

#414

Poll: Given the situation, if you were Slush would you have conceded?

No (146)

55%

Yes (87)

33%

I honestly don't know (31)

12%

264 total votes

Your vote: Given the situation, if you were Slush would you have conceded?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): I honestly don't know

Well, that's that. lol

Cade)Flayer

United Kingdom279 Posts

May 09 2010 15:06 GMT

#415

It would be completely unacceptable to revise the results of a played out tournament where nobody cheated. Slush abided by the the ruling of the admin so he can't be blamed for anything. You can't punish a player because of admin mistakes, that would be incredibly unprofessional and against the spirit of fair play.

See.Blue

United States2673 Posts

May 09 2010 15:09 GMT

#416

On May 10 2010 00:04 7mk wrote:
Artosis handled himself poorly because he puts his whole heart into this game, that doesnt mean hes wrong

He doesn't have to be wrong for his behavior to have been atrocious and unacceptable for someone of his age. Don't confuse in-game correctness with standards for real-world behavior. You can be as right as you want, it doesn't allow you to be a spoiled brat.

leetchaos

United States395 Posts

May 09 2010 15:11 GMT

#417

On May 10 2010 00:02 See.Blue wrote:

Show nested quote +

Flipping out about someone being extremely slimy is much more tolerable in my book than actually being extremely slimy... Yeah obviously he flipped out and that was pretty lame. But forcing a regame on a game you know you lost is way worse imho.

1. Getting mad you lost a tournament because of a DC = uncool but I have some empathy
2. Forcing a regame of a game you lost in all ways but in technicality = super duper uncool, no sympathy, no respect

Ghardo

Germany1685 Posts

May 09 2010 15:12 GMT

#418

On May 09 2010 22:21 KwarK wrote:

Show nested quote +

This apology by Naz makes very little sense to me because I made damn sure that everyone in the ref IRC knew that in my (good at sc2) opinion the game was over. Other players like Demuslim and Nony saying the same thing aren't adding anything refs didn't know at the time. If the criteria used to judge whether it's a regame or not have changed because of last night then just say that, saying they made a mistake when they didn't is wrong.

how should i know. my post referred to the way naz described it and i imagined it would have been refs on their own who don't play as actively / on the level of you or nony or naz.

and how have the criteria changed? the rule has been in place before this debacle happened as well as the criteria to decide whether it's a regame or not. only that it depends on the admin who judges if the right criteria have been met or not and in this case the final decision was a mistake, or wasn't it?
to me it seems to have been a "chain of command problem" if the opinions of the top players with more expertise are overruled by other admins. so whoever made the final decision made a mistake, that's got nothing to do with criteria to appropriately judge the situation which do not change - either artosis had already won the game at the time he disced or he didn't.

7mk

Germany10157 Posts

May 09 2010 15:13 GMT

#419

On May 10 2010 00:09 See.Blue wrote:

Show nested quote +

the line between real world and in game is really not that big at all when you are in Artosis' position, someone who lives in korea because of esports, someone who wants to do this as his job, someone who got up at 3 am just to play this tournament.
Plus he knows most TL admins in real life.

He apologised already, I really dont know what more you could want from him?

Geval

788 Posts

May 09 2010 15:13 GMT

#420

On May 10 2010 00:06 Cade)Flayer wrote:
It would be completely unacceptable to revise the results of a played out tournament where nobody cheated. Slush abided by the the ruling of the admin so he can't be blamed for anything. You can't punish a player because of admin mistakes, that would be incredibly unprofessional and against the spirit of fair play.

This

And remember that the staff didnt award Slush with a win! There was a rematch in which Artosis lost.

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