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On April 21 2010 01:29 TzTz wrote:
Day[9] was sad about having to eliminate his brother from WCG or something i guess in the first round, so kinda funny that it happens again here. Well, or maybe Tasteless will take his revenge ^^.
i dont think you can really compare the two situations. the WCG match was only so "tragic" cause tasteless worked so damn hard to even qualify for that tournament. he hardly made it and then he gets kicked out in the first round by his brother.
the HDH is totally different. both just got invited and didnt have to qualify. i dont think the one who loses will be as sad as back then in any compareable way
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On April 21 2010 01:47 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 01:29 cyclone25 wrote:On April 21 2010 01:16 See.Blue wrote:On April 21 2010 00:53 cyclone25 wrote:
But my question is:
Do you think the chance of a player to cheat (and not get caught!) is high enough to remove the excitement of live streaming? I think not ... (and I tried to prove how unlikely is for a player to cheat).
it. I think your question has been answered a number of times by a number of different people; you seem to keep posing in hopes you find someone who agrees. To be fair, it's not simply a matter of the likeliness, its a combination of the likeliness and the potential impact. It is not only plausible for well known players to cheat (see TSL), but in a tournament like this, which has the largest stakes (iirc) of any english-language tourney in the Beta thus far, it would have a chilling effect on future sponsorship and only serves to tarnish the reputation of the community. Weighing that against a few nerds going slightly flaccid because they're forced to watch replays, and I think it becomes quite clear that the tournament organizers made the right decision. Stop comparing this to TSL please ... the prizes were 10x higher at TSL, and those players didn't cheat by map hacking; they got free wins on a 1k+ people ladder. Ofc that getting free wins isn't excusable, but maphacking is different and much worse. Even if it looks like I got answered by alot of people, must of them had no arguments or unrealistic arguments ... And again, stop posting like that and lure me into arguing with you. As I said, it will get us nowhere, if admins don't want to get involved into it. While I'd like to have a live cast too, I agree with HD and Husky that not having it live is more secure at the moment. You can't ever be sure that no one's going to cheat, or, even if they don't cheat, that no one's going to message them during mid-game with retarded messages as has traditionally happened during live casts. Even framing is possible in these situations as someone can give you cheating information and there's nothing you can do to retain your integrity after that, as who's going to trust that you absolutely didn't tell them to inform you? Live casting in SC 2 just has tons of problems in big tournaments if the players are not on-stage. When the stakes are high, some people inevitably go for the loopholes and I agree with Idra that you don't know these players like you think you do.
the easiest fix for cheating is executing broadcast delay.
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Listen - here's how to do it: Husky & HD spectate the game live and comment it. The one who's got the most powerful computer records his screen with fraps or camtasia (i have done this using camtasia, not sure if it works with fraps). Ten or twenty minutes into the game(s) the raw recorded video is brought up on a second screen and subsequently broadcast using procaster. You just have to open the file camtasia is saving to 10-20 minutes in, no need to encode anything. No different from broadcasting a video player like the GOM player or heck, even Youtube.
EASY.
Edit: Just try this before you do it for the tournament, it's not hard - you'll also have to record the audio on a separate file - you can use any program and just open that file at the same time as the video.
Edit 2: In the event your computer can't handle this (i don't know, i have never done this with procaster, i have only done this like playing a game while recording with camtasia, then opening the recorded video to play back and re-watch something that confused me) this is still doable through this simple solution:
Delay the broadcast one game. After a game is finished (average SC2 game-length is short anyways), close the camtasia recording so that the raw video file becomes "completed" and not still being recorded to - then open it on the second screen and broadcast. If it's still too stressful for one computer - that's still possible to work around. If you don't have a second, older computer, just borrow a laptop - anything - from someone and procast from that instead - any PC can handle it. This would require a network or external harddrive though, which still isn't hard to come by.
At least do this for the finals and semi finals, watching replays just sucks sooooo hard and all it takes is some craftiness to work around it.
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It's not a big deal right now, but something has to be adopted in the future. Showing games live is a must. Broadcasting delay seems like the most obvious option.
Only if Starcraft 2 had StarcraftTV (HLTV).
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On April 21 2010 01:57 Thrill wrote:
Listen - here's how to do it: Husky & HD spectate the game live and comment it. The one who's got the most powerful computer records his screen with fraps or camtasia (i have done this using camtasia, not sure if it works with fraps). Ten or twenty minutes into the game(s) the raw recorded video is brought up on a second screen and subsequently broadcast using procaster. You just have to open the file camtasia is saving to 10-20 minutes in, no need to encode anything. No different from broadcasting a video player like the GOM player or heck, even Youtube.
EASY.
But they should lie us the delay is only 1-2 minutes 
I hope your idea works ^^
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On April 21 2010 01:54 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 00:38 tipakee wrote:
This whole argument is stupid, players have already been proven they cannot be trusted. Day9 recently discussed the scamming and throwing of games that went on in Korea. Well know players threw games and some tournaments used hacked maps to help certain players. While these actions where only taken by a very few, it means all the players must suffer.
HD and Husky are right in commentating replays of the games instead of when they are live. This is all to avoid cheating. Just saying someone is a high quality player doesn't mean they wont cheat.
The replay precaution prevents players from abusing a system, and the only drawback to watching a replay as compared to a live game is all in the viewers head. (unless the tourny host fails and the results get leaked.) Hosting replays just stalls the development of this game as a sport. Seeing something live is a huge deal- how many of you stay up all night watching MSL/OSL instead of watching VODs. Exactly.
and how much shit is being caused by the match rigging scandal?
the reason osl and msl can be live is because its offline and regulated. yes, it would be better for hdh to be broadcast live. but it would be even worse than broadcasting replays to have the integrity of the tournament called into question.
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On April 21 2010 02:00 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 01:57 Thrill wrote:
Listen - here's how to do it: Husky & HD spectate the game live and comment it. The one who's got the most powerful computer records his screen with fraps or camtasia (i have done this using camtasia, not sure if it works with fraps). Ten or twenty minutes into the game(s) the raw recorded video is brought up on a second screen and subsequently broadcast using procaster. You just have to open the file camtasia is saving to 10-20 minutes in, no need to encode anything. No different from broadcasting a video player like the GOM player or heck, even Youtube.
EASY. But they should lie us the delay is only 1-2 minutes I hope your idea works ^^
If the delay is only 1-2 minutes, an unscouted tech or hidden proxy can still be revealed by a spectator of the livestream who messages the unknowing player in game through Battle.net 2.0.
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You people don't understand, delays don't matter, people could still relay expansions and building placement. The whole point of showing the games from replays is to control and eliminate all the avenues for possible cheating that are within the organizers power. What is out of their control (hacking) is out of their control, but by systematically removing all other options, then there is a decreased chance that it will happen, that the tournament will more likely be seen as legitimate, and that the players will regard the event as a professional one and that the wins and loses were real and not due to any source other than their own skills.
I understand the sentiments people are describing about a "live" event but at this point in time the HDH tournament does not have facilities to hold a live event without risking some level of possible cheating. Now please would you ingrates kindly STFU and show a small bit of appreciation for what HD and Husky went through to get a sponsor and to organize this event.
P.S. If your going to threaten not to watch the event "100%" then actually have your word mean something and stop posting because it's not going to be live. and it's 24/7, unless there is 24 days in a week.
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On April 21 2010 02:03 IdrA wrote:
but it would be even worse than broadcasting replays to have the integrity of the tournament called into question.
Not trying to lure you into anything cyclone but this is right. The game isn't even out yet, the absolute worst thing that could happen (and we're talking long run here) is for the integrity of tournaments to begin being compromised.
On April 21 2010 02:21 Gibbles wrote:
I understand the sentiments people are describing about a "live" event but at this point in time ... show a small bit of appreciation for what HD and Husky went through to get a sponsor and to organize this event.
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Btw, can't players use undetectable maphacks if they really want to cheat?
As far as I know there is already a bunch of maphackers on ladder.
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On April 21 2010 02:35 cyclone25 wrote:
Btw, can't players use undetectable maphacks if they really want to cheat?
As far as I know there is already a bunch of maphackers on ladder.
If even without live streaming there's potential for cheating and misconduct it doesn't make much sense to open more avenues for foul play then does it. Particularly when the means of doing so are as innocuous as forcing you to watch VODs a few hours later.
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Yes they can, and if they do it well, they can't be caught.
But there are risks that you have to deal with, and risks that you don't. Just because you might be struck by lightning the next time you walk out the door does not mean you should stop taking precautions while driving at night.
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On April 21 2010 02:03 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 01:54 Sfydjklm wrote:On April 21 2010 00:38 tipakee wrote:
This whole argument is stupid, players have already been proven they cannot be trusted. Day9 recently discussed the scamming and throwing of games that went on in Korea. Well know players threw games and some tournaments used hacked maps to help certain players. While these actions where only taken by a very few, it means all the players must suffer.
HD and Husky are right in commentating replays of the games instead of when they are live. This is all to avoid cheating. Just saying someone is a high quality player doesn't mean they wont cheat.
The replay precaution prevents players from abusing a system, and the only drawback to watching a replay as compared to a live game is all in the viewers head. (unless the tourny host fails and the results get leaked.) Hosting replays just stalls the development of this game as a sport. Seeing something live is a huge deal- how many of you stay up all night watching MSL/OSL instead of watching VODs. Exactly. and how much shit is being caused by the match rigging scandal? the reason osl and msl can be live is because its offline and regulated. yes, it would be better for hdh to be broadcast live. but it would be even worse than broadcasting replays to have the integrity of the tournament called into question.
it might be different in the east but in the west indeed there is no bad publicity.
So in fact if anything cheating is good, especially for irip. After catching a cheater then can apologize and announce that they will press for industry leaders such as tl~ and gg~ net to ban the cheaters for prolonged periods of time.
Everyone goes aww what an awesome company not only did they offer so much money but they actually care about the community. Bam.
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At this phase of the "West Starcraft Scene", I believe that commentating replays for the sake of the competition's integrity is actually the right step to take.
It's good and it's prominent to see there are efforts like this (sacrificing some of the hype of live games to ensure integrity) to prevent cheating and to ensure a clean, fair play. This seriousness and realistic thought put into the games is probably what will lead this community to a level where there will be televised live castings on stage, just like the ones we see in South Korea. And I'm sure this is something that everyone here wish for.
Really nice tournament! All this hype made me finally subscribe! Thanks and congrats to HD and Husky for the initiative.
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Calm down, livestream won't be able to support the huge amount of viewers anyway. The stream dies at 400+ viewers. Ustream might, but it's still a huge number of viewers that could even stall them. Expect 3-5k viewers on the stream, maybe even more. But iirc i have seen ustream with 10k+ viewers still working flawlessly so it might be possible. I'm not sure which one they will be using ?
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I can't believe you guys invited Orb. What a massive disappointment.
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The reason, why you aren't excitet by watching non-live football macth (or anything-else match) is, that it is so easy just to look at the results (teletext, internet, rewind) that only avoiding yourself to look will drain all the excitement from you. Confess, some times you watch even "bad" match just because there is no other way how to see results.
Now as there is no way how to see results of HDH other than watching "live"-stream, you will watch it with same enthusiasm as live one (or cannot you just lie to yourself, it is actually live and HD&Husky are just joking?)
And to "cheat" problem, see it from HD&Husky's point of view. Someone said it is 1% chance that players will cheat and 1% chance not to be revealed (i do not agree but so be it). So like you risk 1/10000 that someone will ruin all any possible next HDHI, cause no sponsors would sponsor cheat-matches, noone will watch and noone will play?
Say you stay at the side of a road. Close your eyes, count to 10 and walk into the road. 1% chance a car will go there, and 1% chance it will not avoid you. You enter the road?
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On April 21 2010 04:48 DarkStorn wrote:
The reason, why you aren't excitet by watching non-live football macth (or anything-else match) is, that it is so easy just to look at the results (teletext, internet, rewind) that only avoiding yourself to look will drain all the excitement from you. Confess, some times you watch even "bad" match just because there is no other way how to see results.
Now as there is no way how to see results of HDH other than watching "live"-stream, you will watch it with same enthusiasm as live one (or cannot you just lie to yourself, it is actually live and HD&Husky are just joking?)
And to "cheat" problem, see it from HD&Husky's point of view. Someone said it is 1% chance that players will cheat and 1% chance not to be revealed (i do not agree but so be it). So like you risk 1/10000 that someone will ruin all any possible next HDHI, cause no sponsors would sponsor cheat-matches, noone will watch and noone will play?
Say you stay at the side of a road. Close your eyes, count to 10 and walk into the road. 1% chance a car will go there, and 1% chance it will not avoid you. You enter the road?
No that is not the reason at all. For any real fans of the players live just feels completely different. When you just like the sport as a whole, yea, replay is as good as any because you will be able to see the brilliance of the play even if its recorded. But if you're emotionally invested in the players you want to see it live.
And no you completely wrong on your position as far as sponsorships go. They don't give a fuck if someone cheats or not, they only care how many people will buy their product as a result of that sponsorship.
Sure if they perceived SC2 fanbase as a bunch of retards who somehow find it in them to relate the players mischiefs to the company's moral positions then yes it would hurt HDH.
Realize that the korean scandal is hard on sponsors not because they sponsor the event but because the cheaters themselves have sponsorships.
It's like if Idra cheated it would be bad publicity for CJ.
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On April 21 2010 04:24 Mohdoo wrote:
I can't believe you guys invited Orb. What a massive disappointment.
Orb > your life
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EPT
