|
On April 21 2010 00:21 cyclone25 said:
You are all talking like these players are hacking experts, they will make sure to cover any trace of hack (like sending "fake" scouts, "accidentally" being in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc)
Do you really think they will still be able to focus on game when they have another computer near them to watch the stream (or a friend to constantly whisper updates on his opponent), and try not to look hackish in front of 10.000 viewers watching them live?
Please try to think for a second and not generalize everything ... wtf is with the olympics example and players taking drugs lol. This is different.
Or you imagine Idra and Artosis agreeing to help eachother and share the prize at the end, or Tasteless to cheat against Day[9] ... haha. Give me examples with who and how will do it, not stupid examples that are not related to this. You will see how ridiculous will sound, and that it's not a reason good enough for games not to be live streamed.
Why not take the extra precaution? Other than you wanting it otherwise, there isn't any good reason not too. People who genuinely enjoy the game and aren't scenesters will enjoy seeing high level people play regardless. Why do you think there are threads and threads of people posting replays to download of good players [and that's without the excellent casting that will happen here].
On December 5 1969 12:00 Mick Jagger wrote:
You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need
|
On April 21 2010 00:21 cyclone25 wrote:
You are all talking like these players are hacking experts, they will make sure to cover any trace of hack (like sending "fake" scouts, "accidentally" being in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc)
Do you really think they will still be able to focus on game when they have another computer near them to watch the stream (or a friend to constantly whisper updates on his opponent), and try not to look hackish in front of 10.000 viewers watching them live?
Please try to think for a second and not generalize everything ... wtf is with the olympics example and players taking drugs lol. This is different.
Or you imagine Idra and Artosis agreeing to help eachother and share the prize at the end, or Tasteless to cheat against Day[9] ... haha. Give me examples with who and how will do it, not stupid examples that are not related to this. You will see how ridiculous will sound, and that it's not a reason good enough for games not to be live streamed.
All I see is you not understanding how much proof it takes to get an admin decision on cheating. If players getting risky and having it pay off starts counting as cheating then the game would take a bad turn so you wont see admin decisions against players who watch the stream for cheese, see its not coming and then adapt accordingly.
Also you need to think a little bit and realize that just because you have seen Day9 and Tasteless cast or have enjoyed following Idras hard work in korea or watched Artosis keep you up to date on the korean scene doesnt mean that they might cheat for 1000$ when the chances of getting caught are essentially zero.
|
Its a sad sad day to admit that watching it live seems very improbable.
Now if only B.net 2.0 had somekind of E-sports mode whereby the players involved become segregated from the rest of the server meaning that no one can message them etc. Or, have players stream their desktop/room etc so all can see what they are doing. Kinda like what admins do with children at the com, lol.
I'm sure that someway somehow there is a better alternative to watching replays rather than live. But until that alternative can be found, I have to agree with replays if it makes for fair game.
|
On April 20 2010 23:20 cyclone25 wrote:
Nice, let's make E-Sports known to the world as a game of cheaters. Anyway, I got tired already. Keep agreeing with IdrA ... maybe you will gain his respect by doing so ^^
Clearly the goal here is to keep the cheating from happening. Here let me fix that for you
Nice, let's make E-Sports know to the world as a community fixated on balance and fair gameplay
|
This whole argument is stupid, players have already been proven they cannot be trusted. Day9 recently discussed the scamming and throwing of games that went on in Korea. Well know players threw games and some tournaments used hacked maps to help certain players. While these actions where only taken by a very few, it means all the players must suffer.
HD and Husky are right in commentating replays of the games instead of when they are live. This is all to avoid cheating. Just saying someone is a high quality player doesn't mean they wont cheat.
The replay precaution prevents players from abusing a system, and the only drawback to watching a replay as compared to a live game is all in the viewers head. (unless the tourny host fails and the results get leaked.)
|
looking forward to the tourni. NONY FIGHTING!
|
On April 21 2010 00:21 cyclone25 wrote:
You are all talking like these players are hacking experts, they will make sure to cover any trace of hack (like sending "fake" scouts, "accidentally" being in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc)
Do you really think they will still be able to focus on game when they have another computer near them to watch the stream (or a friend to constantly whisper updates on his opponent), and try not to look hackish in front of 10.000 viewers watching them live?
Please try to think for a second and not generalize everything ... wtf is with the olympics example and players taking drugs lol. This is different.
Or you imagine Idra and Artosis agreeing to help eachother and share the prize at the end, or Tasteless to cheat against Day[9] ... haha. Give me examples with who and how will do it, not stupid examples that are not related to this. You will see how ridiculous will sound, and that it's not a reason good enough for games not to be live streamed.
Oh please, are you even trying anymore? You need to be a hacking expert to send a fake scout? It's impossible to focus if you have someone on vent telling you about hidden expos/tech etc.?
And what do you mean when you say that you want an example? Here's an example for you: any of the players being on vent with someone watching the stream and telling them stuff they arn't supposed to know, it wouldn't be hard to exploit this without anyone ever knowing about it. I'm sure all the participants are good guys, but if you're sitting there in the finals with the possibility of getting 1500$ I'm sure many will be tempted to get a small advantage with the help of a friend on ventrilo or something like that.
So unless you can put a bit of delay on the stream i think that streaming the replays is a perfectly fine solution.
|
Hate to say it, but I'm with Idra on this one. Great athlets have been proven to cheat (= take drugs) all the time... in every sport. How is this different?
And yes, there are live casts of E-Sport events... but they have a delay (or are casts of LAN events). HDH do the sensible solution. And ranting won't make people agree with you.
|
I'm not saying that live streaming is 100% fine, because indeed there is a small chance of players to cheat.
But my question is:
Do you think the chance of a player to cheat (and not get caught!) is high enough to remove the excitement of live streaming? I think not ... (and I tried to prove how unlikely is for a player to cheat).
Anyway, let's end this discussion. We're going nowhere unless an admin shows his opinion on it.
|
On April 20 2010 21:42 xou wrote:
First matches will really start tomorrow? : )
Tomorrow is the day when matches can officially start. As of right now, no matches have actually been planned for the first day. Some of the players have planned for this weekend.
|
On April 21 2010 00:05 Rubedo wrote:
JUST to prove a point..i registered for the forums (finally) and im gonna explain why having these live would ruin it..
me and my friends have a money pool with the brackets. everyone has idra going to the final game, so im gonna pick him to lose vs orb so if idra does lose, i have an extremely high chance to win that money. now to make it even better, i'll just watch the game live, login to sc2, and whisper orb everything idra is doing cause i can see it live.
thats just an example, but my point is, even if the players are absolutely 100% trustworthy, spectators could ruin it.
this is actually a very valid point! in fact, exactly that thing even happened to orb while he was streaming. he was playing a random ladder game and suddenly some random guy whispered him and revealed the stategy of his opponent... orb was only "wtf!? why would this guy just tell me that!?"
things like that could easily happen and none of the players could do anything to prevent it
|
On April 21 2010 00:55 Enox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 00:05 Rubedo wrote:
JUST to prove a point..i registered for the forums (finally) and im gonna explain why having these live would ruin it..
me and my friends have a money pool with the brackets. everyone has idra going to the final game, so im gonna pick him to lose vs orb so if idra does lose, i have an extremely high chance to win that money. now to make it even better, i'll just watch the game live, login to sc2, and whisper orb everything idra is doing cause i can see it live.
thats just an example, but my point is, even if the players are absolutely 100% trustworthy, spectators could ruin it.
this is actually a very valid point! in fact, exactly that thing even happened to orb while he was streaming. he was playing a random ladder game and suddenly some random guy whispered him and revealed the stategy of his opponent... orb was only "wtf!? why would this guy just tell me that!?" things like that could easily happen and none of the players could do anything to prevent it
I thought that if you set your ingame status as "Busy" people won't be able to whisper you. I'm not 100% sure though.
|
On April 21 2010 00:53 cyclone25 wrote:
But my question is:
Do you think the chance of a player to cheat (and not get caught!) is high enough to remove the excitement of live streaming? I think not ... (and I tried to prove how unlikely is for a player to cheat).
it.
I think your question has been answered a number of times by a number of different people; you seem to keep posing in hopes you find someone who agrees. To be fair, it's not simply a matter of the likeliness, its a combination of the likeliness and the potential impact. It is not only plausible for well known players to cheat (see TSL), but in a tournament like this, which has the largest stakes (iirc) of any english-language tourney in the Beta thus far, it would have a chilling effect on future sponsorship and only serves to tarnish the reputation of the community. Weighing that against a few nerds going slightly flaccid because they're forced to watch replays, and I think it becomes quite clear that the tournament organizers made the right decision.
|
I thought that if you set your ingame status as "Busy" people won't be able to whisper you. I'm not 100% sure though.
This feature doesn't work yet.
|
On April 21 2010 01:16 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 00:53 cyclone25 wrote:
But my question is:
Do you think the chance of a player to cheat (and not get caught!) is high enough to remove the excitement of live streaming? I think not ... (and I tried to prove how unlikely is for a player to cheat).
it. I think your question has been answered a number of times by a number of different people; you seem to keep posing in hopes you find someone who agrees. To be fair, it's not simply a matter of the likeliness, its a combination of the likeliness and the potential impact. It is not only plausible for well known players to cheat (see TSL), but in a tournament like this, which has the largest stakes (iirc) of any english-language tourney in the Beta thus far, it would have a chilling effect on future sponsorship and only serves to tarnish the reputation of the community. Weighing that against a few nerds going slightly flaccid because they're forced to watch replays, and I think it becomes quite clear that the tournament organizers made the right decision.
Stop comparing this to TSL please ... the prizes were 10x higher at TSL, and those players didn't cheat by map hacking; they got free wins on a 1k+ people ladder.
Ofc that getting free wins isn't excusable, but maphacking is different and much worse.
Even if it looks like I got answered by alot of people, must of them had no arguments or unrealistic arguments ...
And again, stop posting like that and lure me into arguing with you. As I said, it will get us nowhere, if admins don't want to get involved into it.
|
Day[9] was sad about having to eliminate his brother from WCG or something i guess in the first round, so kinda funny that it happens again here. Well, or maybe Tasteless will take his revenge ^^.
|
Umm, it's not even one bit hard to add a delay, so i have no idea what the problem is...
|
This is not the WCG people; it's a friendly 16 player invitational. This also isn't the end all of tournaments. Day[9] and Tasteless are big boys, and they'll be fine with whoever wins their round one match up. This is nothing like the situation they were both in during his 100th cast.
|
On April 21 2010 01:29 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 01:16 See.Blue wrote:On April 21 2010 00:53 cyclone25 wrote:
But my question is:
Do you think the chance of a player to cheat (and not get caught!) is high enough to remove the excitement of live streaming? I think not ... (and I tried to prove how unlikely is for a player to cheat).
it. I think your question has been answered a number of times by a number of different people; you seem to keep posing in hopes you find someone who agrees. To be fair, it's not simply a matter of the likeliness, its a combination of the likeliness and the potential impact. It is not only plausible for well known players to cheat (see TSL), but in a tournament like this, which has the largest stakes (iirc) of any english-language tourney in the Beta thus far, it would have a chilling effect on future sponsorship and only serves to tarnish the reputation of the community. Weighing that against a few nerds going slightly flaccid because they're forced to watch replays, and I think it becomes quite clear that the tournament organizers made the right decision. Stop comparing this to TSL please ... the prizes were 10x higher at TSL, and those players didn't cheat by map hacking; they got free wins on a 1k+ people ladder. Ofc that getting free wins isn't excusable, but maphacking is different and much worse. Even if it looks like I got answered by alot of people, must of them had no arguments or unrealistic arguments ... And again, stop posting like that and lure me into arguing with you. As I said, it will get us nowhere, if admins don't want to get involved into it.
While I'd like to have a live cast too, I agree with HD and Husky that not having it live is more secure at the moment. You can't ever be sure that no one's going to cheat, or, even if they don't cheat, that no one's going to message them during mid-game with retarded messages as has traditionally happened during live casts. Even framing is possible in these situations as someone can give you cheating information and there's nothing you can do to retain your integrity after that, as who's going to trust that you absolutely didn't tell them to inform you?
Live casting in SC 2 just has tons of problems in big tournaments if the players are not on-stage. When the stakes are high, some people inevitably go for the loopholes and I agree with Idra that you don't know these players like you think you do.
|
On April 21 2010 00:38 tipakee wrote:
This whole argument is stupid, players have already been proven they cannot be trusted. Day9 recently discussed the scamming and throwing of games that went on in Korea. Well know players threw games and some tournaments used hacked maps to help certain players. While these actions where only taken by a very few, it means all the players must suffer.
HD and Husky are right in commentating replays of the games instead of when they are live. This is all to avoid cheating. Just saying someone is a high quality player doesn't mean they wont cheat.
The replay precaution prevents players from abusing a system, and the only drawback to watching a replay as compared to a live game is all in the viewers head. (unless the tourny host fails and the results get leaked.)
Hosting replays just stalls the development of this game as a sport.
Seeing something live is a huge deal- how many of you stay up all night watching MSL/OSL instead of watching VODs.
Exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
