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On May 10 2010 04:51 Pekkz wrote:
I just hate nani's playstyle so so much. Somthing is wrong when you can play a full tourny and end nearly every game in under 10 mins. Most his games was between 7-8 mins, and one got to 15 mins.
Need more advantages of defending, because warpgate totally removes that advantage when you can have your reforcements just as fast as the defender.
Looks like sentry dmg nerf wasnt enough.
This was what we discussed after the last zotac cup a few pages back in this thread. I said nerfing the sentry wouldn't change crap because there's still something fundamentally wrong with the game (macro mechanics).
Only thing further nerfs will change is that more protosses will die early game and/or fail their busts, proceeding to get raped afterwards in boring games. Won't change the fact that 5gate will continue to be the best strategy available to the protoss race.
Not like you can magically start 2gate expanding in this game because 5gate doesn't work. Other races almost have just as strong all-ins. Protosses will keep 5gating as long as the macro mechanics don't give them a fair chance at taking the game to the mid game without dying vs terrans (and without being overpowered by the zerg macro mechanic).
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On May 10 2010 04:51 Pekkz wrote:
I just hate nani's playstyle so so much. Somthing is wrong when you can play a full tourny and end nearly every game in under 10 mins. Most his games was between 7-8 mins, and one got to 15 mins.
Need more advantages of defending, because warpgate totally removes that advantage when you can have your reforcements just as fast as the defender.
Looks like sentry dmg nerf wasnt enough.
very rarely did his opponents choose not to expand early which would've given them more resources toward an army and defense early game.
the earlier you expand, the bigger percentage of your income you are using on economy. so, when nani's army is twice as big because he didnt spend 1k+ gold on workers and a hatchery/cc, its no surprise he ended the games quickly.
in the few games i saw where it was 1-base vs 1-base, it was a LOT closer (g1 vs jinro, the game he dc'ed against MltN, and even the other game against MltN). zergs, and to a lesser extent terran, need to start realizing that there are other options besides expanding very early in the game, you simply can't get away with it as easily as you could in BW.
not FE'ing will allow players to hold off the protoss' early push, which will allow them to expand (and probably a counter expo from the protoss), which will allow games to evolve into a more macro based nature, which everyone here seems to favor.
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On May 10 2010 05:06 Mios wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 04:51 Pekkz wrote:
I just hate nani's playstyle so so much. Somthing is wrong when you can play a full tourny and end nearly every game in under 10 mins. Most his games was between 7-8 mins, and one got to 15 mins.
Need more advantages of defending, because warpgate totally removes that advantage when you can have your reforcements just as fast as the defender.
Looks like sentry dmg nerf wasnt enough. very rarely did his opponents choose not to expand early which would've given them more resources toward an army and defense early game. the earlier you expand, the bigger percentage of your income you are using on economy. so, when nani's army is twice as big because he didnt spend 1k+ gold on workers and a hatchery/cc, its no surprise he ended the games quickly. in the few games i saw where it was 1-base vs 1-base, it was a LOT closer (g1 vs jinro, the game he dc'ed against MltN, and even the other game against MltN). zergs, and to a lesser extent terran, need to start realizing that there are other options besides expanding very early in the game, you simply can't get away with it as easily as you could in BW. not FE'ing will allow players to hold off the protoss' early push, which will allow them to expand (and probably a counter expo from the protoss), which will allow games to evolve into a more macro based nature, which everyone here seems to favor.
This is just ignorant. There's no way you will win on 1base as zerg against a 5gating toss. Believe me because I've fucking tried since the beginning of the beta. It worked well until protosses realized they could just add more gateways and use 10 sentries to cut your army in half every time you venture out off of your creep.
They don't even have to kill you. They can sit and fucking camp your ramp with their 5 gate army with a gazillion sentries. Or they can simply take an expand before you do. No way a zerg can be aggressive with units (especially hydras) moving as slow as they do.
I'd be interested hearing what league you're in. It's probably bronze or some crap, and you're trying to lecture people in here anyway.
No FE'ing = You have to kill the toss = it's a cheese not a standard stable strategy.
It's not enough just to hold off the push. Maybe in bronze league it is, but not for us.
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Hi,
For start ill say i visit this site in 2 years now. Never made account untill now . Most of you dont know me, with most of you i played in ladder. Let me get straight to the point i played with all the top players in europe and from my point of view even the fact that someone sugests that zerg can win without expand vs toss is realy out of his mind. You know Zeerax he played toss well some weaks ago i got big problems on small maps vs toss and we played like 100 games and all maps and whenever i played 1 base i won if he didnt go 5 rax or 4rax/robo. There is only one thing you should undersand THE ONLY RACE near finished in this beta is Protoss. They got good units all of them do theyr job when they are needed and the sinergy of the units is almost perfect thats the point of a complete race. I played all of blizzards game and i know when they say "We will make sure the game is balanced" that they will do what is suppose to be done to make it right, i think most of you forget its BETA not even complete game yet. O and FYI Blizzard makes most of the balance from Korean ladder players and there is not even a half good protoss/terran players like in europe. So the point of my post was just to remind you that in time every thing will get in place and stop the shit about "In BW was this and that" this is SC2!
Peace
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On May 10 2010 04:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +In TvP, it looks like everyone is doing more or less the same thing though, whether or not they're missing something is uncertain, but they terrans seem to have a hard time winning a "straight-up" game against a protoss. I only ever see marauders with a support unit ghosts or banshees + medivacs in TvP, [Vikings or marines if he's going colossus/void ray, and you have no choice] except jinro was playing around with some other things to little success. Was copying some Korean terran. He usually got reactor before fac, 2nd gas before 2nd supply but I gave up on that after losing so many marines/scvs to chronoboosted zealots in Craftcup semis yesterday =[
Seriously, props to you for trying out new builds. It is always interesting seeing what sort of build you're trying, even if they sometimes fail.
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On May 10 2010 04:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Was copying some Korean terran.
Doomed from the beginning.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 10 2010 08:11 Spike wrote:Doomed from the beginning.
Well all my own builds have gradually stopped working too so 
I'm gonna try some other stuff but I really want to do something that doesn't involve proxy raxing lol
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On May 10 2010 03:25 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:15 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 03:06 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:53 lgd-haze wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think What does everyone on TL think? O_O lol On May 10 2010 02:54 FreshVegetables wrote:
Yeah, MorroW is totally exaggerating the balance issue. Sure there are minor things but that's surely not why MorroW nowdays gets eliminated in round 3-4 or so. There are certainly ways that Terran can overcome the rather small imbalances in the beta. gg wp Nani! im getting score 1-2 vs ra and 1-2 vs hasuobs. to be honest my scores in tvp r just completely random because the mu is really just a guessing game from terrans point of view. that i lose vs these random toss users maybe say im a bad player (which is bs) but it also says that its imbalanced and as i stated - luckbased i dont really think u can call it overexadurating if u look at the statistics. statistics favor me, public opinions on forums favor me. asia favor me, us too. ladder rankings favor me patch history favor me, blizzard interviews favor me. casters say what i say chat forums talk about what i talk about. when hydra attacked fast as hell, roach had 2 armor and hydra 90 life you zpux and all other zergs were convinced that i lost because i was playing badly. lets wait some more patches and watch me have right even more because each patch my words make truth so if u ppl who say im wrong wanna go down this road all over again then sure be my guest. sit next to me, sit and watch as toss and zerg being nerfed On May 10 2010 02:55 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think On May 10 2010 02:43 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:38 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:34 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 02:30 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:27 MorroW wrote:jesus rape 2nd game, missed 1st cause dinner naruto dont hold back ur opinions, many of us like hearing some insight of what others think of balance  both dimaga and this toss guy sound alike, winning much but keep thinking terran is a strong race btw this zotac cup finals hasnt been very motivational so far xD I'm not saying Terran is unplayable nor superweak in any kind. But if the Protoss/Zerg keep telling me they are playing better and thats the reason for higher winrates of them, come on, don't these guys realize that their race got advantages?-_- As I said I'm not even crying, I'm just pointing out, there's definately individual skill for some players, but that doesn't make up for everything. Just like the marauder rushes in the beginning were insanely hard to defend so it wasn't really individual skill to win with it. If you keep doing the same strat all over again and still win, something is wrong. May I ask what this zerg strat is that all the zergs are doing over and over again? I agree on 4/5 gate being somewhat gay, but dont put zergs in the same boat TvZ is not so bad, but seriously I saw your games vs Jinro. You made a fool of yourself,... he went really reaperheavy and you stayed with lings.. 2-3 roaches would totally shut that down. ha-ha-ha why r ur posts always attacking someone elses post with 1-10 words without bringing anything urself to the table or even explaining why u disagree? in my book thats a troll because Naruto is a tool and he just spews nonsense for dramatic purposes and he knows it. I would perhaps put more effort into replying to his garbage of a post if he didnt manage to insult Zpux for no reason while at it. Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro. And when it is Jinro slow ass roaches don't exactly fare that well either. And its not like there arent solid follow ups if he switches to roaches right away. I don't disagree with terran being weak part(perhaps in large portion because terrans havent been figured it out yet), but his posts are close to unbearable. "if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro". when u theorycraft u dont include which players are playing. when u make bos ur not supposed to care whos being the computer. im not gonna start talk about how to counter reapers but im just stating that ur way of thinking is completely garbage if u wanna create a solid strategy that doesnt die vs reapers for example. do u not comprehend english? I said roaches are not any more effective in stopping reaper harrass then lings are if you're playing someone with decent micro and would not win the game for Zpux. Also while you're waiting for yourself to be proven right people like Jinro win tournaments. Think about it. no. you said "Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro" now u meant Jinro = guy with good micro so then we have "Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt good at micro" then reverse the statement of isnt "Lings does not shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers is good at micro" yep, thats what u said and i just explained it step by step for u
im gonna take this as a language difference because FA seems to understand what youre talking about.
the last 20 comments ive seen by u r always few few words so dont try to sneak out of this by blaming it on naruto
ur way of defending zpux with that way of strategic thinking is retarded. high players ASSUME they r good at micro
jesus man t,t
start putting in some greater quality in ur posts by explaining urself and why u think so instead of just openly mocking ppl like naruto. TL is a place for quality posts and not trolling
roaches r alot better at stopping reapers than lings in every way. unless u have speed lings. since i have no idea how the game looked i feel like an idiot talking about it
i think its alittle bad style of naruto to tell zpux how to play zvt and his errors because zpux is a very good player and im sure he knows the situation better than all of us here
the last 20 comments you saw i probably dealt with the same issue of ignorance. the influx of kids from other games have really brought down the quality of this board. I don't understand why i should respect Naruto's posts because he too is a forum vet and in my book one liners ridiculing trolls is still a better way to post then trolling on balance issues and insulting players.
And noone is as good at microing reapers as Jinro is. Noone.
And of course were talking speedlings.
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United States33604 Posts
welcome to the kong-line ^_^
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On May 10 2010 05:13 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 05:06 Mios wrote:On May 10 2010 04:51 Pekkz wrote:
I just hate nani's playstyle so so much. Somthing is wrong when you can play a full tourny and end nearly every game in under 10 mins. Most his games was between 7-8 mins, and one got to 15 mins.
Need more advantages of defending, because warpgate totally removes that advantage when you can have your reforcements just as fast as the defender.
Looks like sentry dmg nerf wasnt enough. very rarely did his opponents choose not to expand early which would've given them more resources toward an army and defense early game. the earlier you expand, the bigger percentage of your income you are using on economy. so, when nani's army is twice as big because he didnt spend 1k+ gold on workers and a hatchery/cc, its no surprise he ended the games quickly. in the few games i saw where it was 1-base vs 1-base, it was a LOT closer (g1 vs jinro, the game he dc'ed against MltN, and even the other game against MltN). zergs, and to a lesser extent terran, need to start realizing that there are other options besides expanding very early in the game, you simply can't get away with it as easily as you could in BW. not FE'ing will allow players to hold off the protoss' early push, which will allow them to expand (and probably a counter expo from the protoss), which will allow games to evolve into a more macro based nature, which everyone here seems to favor. This is just ignorant. There's no way you will win on 1base as zerg against a 5gating toss. Believe me because I've fucking tried since the beginning of the beta. It worked well until protosses realized they could just add more gateways and use 10 sentries to cut your army in half every time you venture out off of your creep. They don't even have to kill you. They can sit and fucking camp your ramp with their 5 gate army with a gazillion sentries. Or they can simply take an expand before you do. No way a zerg can be aggressive with units (especially hydras) moving as slow as they do. I'd be interested hearing what league you're in. It's probably bronze or some crap, and you're trying to lecture people in here anyway. No FE'ing = You have to kill the toss = it's a cheese not a standard stable strategy. It's not enough just to hold off the push. Maybe in bronze league it is, but not for us.
Just because you tried and failed doesn't mean it will never work. I have seen one base speedlings into muta work really effectively against protoss (negating the effectiveness of force field, also now sentries do shit damage to mutas), but since everyone just copies pro replays not many have tried to find a viable one base zerg strategy, so it never evolves. Basically you're saying that with equal resources, a zerg army is weaker than a 5 gate toss army, which simply isn't true.
Obviously the strength of zerg is their macro mechanics which means they're strongest mid-late game as long when they have an expo or rwo, but spending all your resources on economy at the very beginning (when resources are less plentiful therefore more important) should not come without some risk. How about getting a decent army first, and then expanding midgame? Way less risk, zerg still gets to play to their strengths. You talk about knowing the opponent is going to 5 gate and not being able to stop it? Every fucking zerg fast expands EVERY game against toss and it's equally hard to stop.
Also, do you realize how easy it is to be in platinum? All I do is watch replays and tournaments and I'm still rank 3 plat in my division.
And what the fuck is with everyone calling timing pushes cheese? Is it wrong to put more resources into your army than the opponent, and attack before their strategy pays off? It's not surprising that zerg's bitch when the game doesnt turn into a one hour, multiple expo macro fest; that's where a fast expo zerg wins. When you see a protoss drop a forge and wall in their natural and you cancel your hatchery, build 20 roaches and dominate their fast expansion because they have no army, is it cheese? No, it's good decision making, and exploiting the risk the protoss took, exactly like what we're seeing protoss do against zerg.
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It would be awesome if this was kept on topic, so anyone have any streams that are pretty consistent to add to the list?
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sonnenkind is swedish which brings me to my next point:
nerf ze swedes k thx.
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On May 10 2010 08:46 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 08:11 Spike wrote:On May 10 2010 04:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Was copying some Korean terran. Doomed from the beginning. Well all my own builds have gradually stopped working too so I'm gonna try some other stuff but I really want to do something that doesn't involve proxy raxing lol
Don't think your strat was really that bad but being supply blocked really often is. could ve spent those 1k minerals for valuable vultures vs the speedlots cause shooting half your marines with your tanks cause they focus the speedlots aint so hot.
(talkin bout the Incernation game)
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On May 10 2010 12:47 Sfydjklm wrote:
sonnenkind is swedish which brings me to my next point:
nerf ze swedes k thx.
He is o.O I just assumed German cos of the name.
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I will repeat. There is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE to counter and win vs top level P by playing 1 base zerg. You said mutaling ? 4warpgates toss will make enough zealots with stalkers to counter your 4-5 (?) muta and just 1a you. Again, on top level you cant play one base zerg. EOT
BTW. Have you seen zotac #10 finals Dimaga vs Nani ? Dimaga tried to do 1 base zerg too
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are terran's STILL FEing in TvP and losing to 5 gate? who would have thought?
(that was sarcasm).
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On May 10 2010 15:18 avilo wrote:
are terran's STILL FEing in TvP and losing to 5 gate? who would have thought?
(that was sarcasm).
Have you tried trying to 1 base against a protoss? Surely you can understand that terran players aren't going FE just because they feel like it. It feels like the ignorant protoss complaining about terrans only using marauder. What else do you expect him to make? Something you can crush easily?
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this threadpage is so disgusting. never thought sc2 would make TL so much worse in such a short time. dont even wanna think about what will happen after release...
balance discussion seems to bring the worst out in people no matter what. i mean we are in beta. we are lightyears away from having a balanced game. and still people sit on their high horse and flame evryone who even thinks about doubting the balance of their race. i expect that from bnet forums but on TL i thought this would never be that bad.
watched the vods yesterday . as many stated finals were very disappointing in many ways but the rest was great :>
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On May 10 2010 23:15 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
this threadpage is so disgusting. never thought sc2 would make TL so much worse in such a short time. dont even wanna think about what will happen after release...
balance discussion seems to bring the worst out in people no matter what. i mean we are in beta. we are lightyears away from having a balanced game. and still people sit on their high horse and flame evryone who even thinks about doubting the balance of their race. i expect that from bnet forums but on TL i thought this would never be that bad.
watched the vods yesterday . as many stated finals were very disappointing in many ways but the rest was great :>
Yes this is beta, let's just ignore talking about balance because everything will somehow magically sort itself out lightyears into the future.
This is what beta's are for. Discussing balance. This is how you proceed into that future you're talking about. Only one being flamed in this thread is the idiot claiming you can 1base mutaling vs toss as some sort of standard strategy. Other than that there's somewhat of a consensus about there being a "problem".
Quite frankly, there are too many lazy morons sitting on their asses this beta using the "future" argument. During the wc3 beta you had top players actually sit and think about the game and give lengthy constructive feedback. This beta top players for some reason decided Blizzard are good enough to sort everything out by themselves while they sit on their asses and play without providing any feedback whatsoever.
Only top players I've seen make an effort are basically the Liquid' guys in their front page editorials. Other than that no one seems to care enough to bother. Of course the game will stay crappy.
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EPT
