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On May 10 2010 03:04 FreshVegetables wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
Source plz, because i'm pretty sure it was 3-4% and not 10%.
Ah, you're indeed right. A misinterpration of my part after only hearing about it.
But still, my point was the numbers may very well look different at the absolute top level of play.
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On May 10 2010 02:57 LaLuSh wrote:
I think terran are forced to 1base if they want the matchup vs zerg to be even. If they do... it's often balanced, but the games feel more like coin flips than real games because the zerg has to guess the terran tech pattern and transitions. Basically if they guess right and/or don't overcommit to defense they win. If it goes to a macro game, terran will lose more often than not.
Protoss is just gay because they allow people like naniwa who have never heard of expansions in their lives to be good gimmick strategy players. If you ever see a game with naniwa that reaches the mid or lategame you'll feel embarassed for the kid. He can't macro for shit. These 5gate builds are prolly the wc3 equivalent to tower rushes. Gimmick build that shouldn't work and won't work frequently enough as it gets patched.
And then we get to the zerg. They have an overpowered macro mechanic that makes them go out of control in the mid and lategame. But they are really weak and have to do alot of guessing in the early game to even get there.
They'd possibly be able to get rid of some of these imbalances if they nerfed the macro mechanics for all races. Slightly more for zerg than the other races. It'd allow zerg to survive to the mid game easier and at the same time not be so ridiculously strong when they got there. Also it'd be fun to have some more tension and decision making regarding building hatcheries or making queens.
Also I think terrans macro mechanic needs to be revamped so MULEs return considerably less, but they cost like 10 energy. This would punish terran players for having bad macro as they'd saturate their mineral lines if they miss putting down the MULEs. It'd also balance out gold expansions which are ridiculously strong for terrans.
I think Blizzard will realize sooner or later they have to tweak the macro mechanics to make 1base play weaker. As it is now it is the best strategy available. Because the macro mechanics accelerate the gameplay there's too big of a discrepancy between expanding and cheesing/all-inning. Nerfing the macro mechanics would smoothen it out and delay the timings of everything slightly.
If you scout a 5 gate you should be able to counter it. In BW if you scouted a scouted 4 gate you would be in a massive lead because the non existent macro mechanics and delayed timings early game would allow you to adapt accordingly. As it is now in SC2, it doesn't really matter if you scout a 5gate, it's still just as hard to stop.
So you're saying there should be no risk to expanding? The fact that zerg can fast expand EVERY GAME and get away with it even though the opponent knows exactly what they're doing is ridiculous.
1base all-in should always beat fast expand. Expanding takes resources and time that should only pay off if your opponent doesnt time his attack properly, or it goes unnoticed completely. Protoss players putting all their resources and time into having an army that is at its most powerful right when zergs/terrans have a significantly smaller army investment is a good strategy and it should work.
I really hate IN YOUR FACE fast expansions, they should be beat every time using one base, and the fact is they work about 50% is too high already. If you want to beat one base all in strategies you shouldnt put so much resources toward economy. The proper counter for one-base all-in should be putting more resources into defense and building your base/army in a way that will stop pushes.
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On May 10 2010 03:06 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:53 lgd-haze wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think What does everyone on TL think? O_O lol Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:54 FreshVegetables wrote:
Yeah, MorroW is totally exaggerating the balance issue. Sure there are minor things but that's surely not why MorroW nowdays gets eliminated in round 3-4 or so. There are certainly ways that Terran can overcome the rather small imbalances in the beta. gg wp Nani! im getting score 1-2 vs ra and 1-2 vs hasuobs. to be honest my scores in tvp r just completely random because the mu is really just a guessing game from terrans point of view. that i lose vs these random toss users maybe say im a bad player (which is bs) but it also says that its imbalanced and as i stated - luckbased i dont really think u can call it overexadurating if u look at the statistics. statistics favor me, public opinions on forums favor me. asia favor me, us too. ladder rankings favor me patch history favor me, blizzard interviews favor me. casters say what i say chat forums talk about what i talk about. when hydra attacked fast as hell, roach had 2 armor and hydra 90 life you zpux and all other zergs were convinced that i lost because i was playing badly. lets wait some more patches and watch me have right even more because each patch my words make truth so if u ppl who say im wrong wanna go down this road all over again then sure be my guest. sit next to me, sit and watch as toss and zerg being nerfed Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:55 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think On May 10 2010 02:43 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:38 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:34 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 02:30 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:27 MorroW wrote:jesus rape 2nd game, missed 1st cause dinner naruto dont hold back ur opinions, many of us like hearing some insight of what others think of balance  both dimaga and this toss guy sound alike, winning much but keep thinking terran is a strong race btw this zotac cup finals hasnt been very motivational so far xD I'm not saying Terran is unplayable nor superweak in any kind. But if the Protoss/Zerg keep telling me they are playing better and thats the reason for higher winrates of them, come on, don't these guys realize that their race got advantages?-_- As I said I'm not even crying, I'm just pointing out, there's definately individual skill for some players, but that doesn't make up for everything. Just like the marauder rushes in the beginning were insanely hard to defend so it wasn't really individual skill to win with it. If you keep doing the same strat all over again and still win, something is wrong. May I ask what this zerg strat is that all the zergs are doing over and over again? I agree on 4/5 gate being somewhat gay, but dont put zergs in the same boat  TvZ is not so bad, but seriously I saw your games vs Jinro. You made a fool of yourself,... he went really reaperheavy and you stayed with lings.. 2-3 roaches would totally shut that down. ha-ha-ha why r ur posts always attacking someone elses post with 1-10 words without bringing anything urself to the table or even explaining why u disagree? in my book thats a troll because Naruto is a tool and he just spews nonsense for dramatic purposes and he knows it. I would perhaps put more effort into replying to his garbage of a post if he didnt manage to insult Zpux for no reason while at it. Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro. And when it is Jinro slow ass roaches don't exactly fare that well either. And its not like there arent solid follow ups if he switches to roaches right away. I don't disagree with terran being weak part(perhaps in large portion because terrans havent been figured it out yet), but his posts are close to unbearable. "if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro". when u theorycraft u dont include which players are playing. when u make bos ur not supposed to care whos being the computer. im not gonna start talk about how to counter reapers but im just stating that ur way of thinking is completely garbage if u wanna create a solid strategy that doesnt die vs reapers for example.
I have one word which describes you perfectly, megalomania.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 10 2010 03:07 ZpuX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
hehe so you are saying that there are so many terran players that all they have to do is face each other and they end up in the finals? It's a fact that there have been a lot of terrans in the finals the last week/s.
I only played 2 terran players this zotac (round 1, round 7). I played about an even distribution of Ps and Zs other than that...
Anyway, on the topic of reapers, I don't know if I agree that Z should just "get 3 roaches and be safe", because non-speed roaches can't even hit speed reapers and if you mass roaches well.... I have 3 raxs with techlabs, how hard is it for me to make marauders?
The most difficulties I've had with mass reaper builds is when the zerg goes muta which is why I went ghost after the reapers.
On May 10 2010 03:11 Mios wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:57 LaLuSh wrote:
I think terran are forced to 1base if they want the matchup vs zerg to be even. If they do... it's often balanced, but the games feel more like coin flips than real games because the zerg has to guess the terran tech pattern and transitions. Basically if they guess right and/or don't overcommit to defense they win. If it goes to a macro game, terran will lose more often than not.
Protoss is just gay because they allow people like naniwa who have never heard of expansions in their lives to be good gimmick strategy players. If you ever see a game with naniwa that reaches the mid or lategame you'll feel embarassed for the kid. He can't macro for shit. These 5gate builds are prolly the wc3 equivalent to tower rushes. Gimmick build that shouldn't work and won't work frequently enough as it gets patched.
And then we get to the zerg. They have an overpowered macro mechanic that makes them go out of control in the mid and lategame. But they are really weak and have to do alot of guessing in the early game to even get there.
They'd possibly be able to get rid of some of these imbalances if they nerfed the macro mechanics for all races. Slightly more for zerg than the other races. It'd allow zerg to survive to the mid game easier and at the same time not be so ridiculously strong when they got there. Also it'd be fun to have some more tension and decision making regarding building hatcheries or making queens.
Also I think terrans macro mechanic needs to be revamped so MULEs return considerably less, but they cost like 10 energy. This would punish terran players for having bad macro as they'd saturate their mineral lines if they miss putting down the MULEs. It'd also balance out gold expansions which are ridiculously strong for terrans.
I think Blizzard will realize sooner or later they have to tweak the macro mechanics to make 1base play weaker. As it is now it is the best strategy available. Because the macro mechanics accelerate the gameplay there's too big of a discrepancy between expanding and cheesing/all-inning. Nerfing the macro mechanics would smoothen it out and delay the timings of everything slightly.
If you scout a 5 gate you should be able to counter it. In BW if you scouted a scouted 4 gate you would be in a massive lead because the non existent macro mechanics and delayed timings early game would allow you to adapt accordingly. As it is now in SC2, it doesn't really matter if you scout a 5gate, it's still just as hard to stop.
So you're saying there should be no risk to expanding? The fact that zerg can fast expand EVERY GAME and get away with it even though the opponent knows exactly what they're doing is ridiculous. 1base all-in should always beat fast expand. Expanding takes resources and time that should only pay off if your opponent doesnt time his attack properly, or it goes unnoticed completely. Protoss players putting all their resources and time into having an army that is at its most powerful right when zergs/terrans have a significantly smaller army investment is a good strategy and it should work. I really hate IN YOUR FACE fast expansions, they should be beat every time using one base, and the fact is they work about 50% is too high already. If you want to beat one base all in strategies you shouldnt put so much resources toward economy. The proper counter for one-base all-in should be putting more resources into defense and building your base/army in a way that will stop pushes.
.... You realize that in SC1, fast expansions are used in 95% of all PvZs, and in a really high % of the TvZs as well?
Semi-fast expansions are used in TvP and TvT as well (1 fac expos are common).
Starcraft = a game with expansion. No, all-in should most definitely not auto-beat any kind of expansion. It shouldn't auto-lose, but it should at least rely on not being scouted.
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On May 10 2010 03:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:07 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
hehe so you are saying that there are so many terran players that all they have to do is face each other and they end up in the finals? It's a fact that there have been a lot of terrans in the finals the last week/s. I only played 2 terran players this zotac (round 1, round 7). I played about an even distribution of Ps and Zs other than that...
An equal skilled Protoss will beat an equal skilled Terran - do you agree or disagree?.. It might be Terrans didnt find the right way to play yet, but I find a lot of mistakes in my play which I don't make anymore, but its not just my play that makes me lose some games.
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On May 10 2010 03:06 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:53 lgd-haze wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think What does everyone on TL think? O_O lol Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:54 FreshVegetables wrote:
Yeah, MorroW is totally exaggerating the balance issue. Sure there are minor things but that's surely not why MorroW nowdays gets eliminated in round 3-4 or so. There are certainly ways that Terran can overcome the rather small imbalances in the beta. gg wp Nani! im getting score 1-2 vs ra and 1-2 vs hasuobs. to be honest my scores in tvp r just completely random because the mu is really just a guessing game from terrans point of view. that i lose vs these random toss users maybe say im a bad player (which is bs) but it also says that its imbalanced and as i stated - luckbased i dont really think u can call it overexadurating if u look at the statistics. statistics favor me, public opinions on forums favor me. asia favor me, us too. ladder rankings favor me patch history favor me, blizzard interviews favor me. casters say what i say chat forums talk about what i talk about. when hydra attacked fast as hell, roach had 2 armor and hydra 90 life you zpux and all other zergs were convinced that i lost because i was playing badly. lets wait some more patches and watch me have right even more because each patch my words make truth so if u ppl who say im wrong wanna go down this road all over again then sure be my guest. sit next to me, sit and watch as toss and zerg being nerfed Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:55 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think On May 10 2010 02:43 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:38 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:34 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 02:30 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:27 MorroW wrote:jesus rape 2nd game, missed 1st cause dinner naruto dont hold back ur opinions, many of us like hearing some insight of what others think of balance both dimaga and this toss guy sound alike, winning much but keep thinking terran is a strong race btw this zotac cup finals hasnt been very motivational so far xD I'm not saying Terran is unplayable nor superweak in any kind. But if the Protoss/Zerg keep telling me they are playing better and thats the reason for higher winrates of them, come on, don't these guys realize that their race got advantages?-_- As I said I'm not even crying, I'm just pointing out, there's definately individual skill for some players, but that doesn't make up for everything. Just like the marauder rushes in the beginning were insanely hard to defend so it wasn't really individual skill to win with it. If you keep doing the same strat all over again and still win, something is wrong. May I ask what this zerg strat is that all the zergs are doing over and over again? I agree on 4/5 gate being somewhat gay, but dont put zergs in the same boat TvZ is not so bad, but seriously I saw your games vs Jinro. You made a fool of yourself,... he went really reaperheavy and you stayed with lings.. 2-3 roaches would totally shut that down. ha-ha-ha why r ur posts always attacking someone elses post with 1-10 words without bringing anything urself to the table or even explaining why u disagree? in my book thats a troll because Naruto is a tool and he just spews nonsense for dramatic purposes and he knows it. I would perhaps put more effort into replying to his garbage of a post if he didnt manage to insult Zpux for no reason while at it. Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro. And when it is Jinro slow ass roaches don't exactly fare that well either. And its not like there arent solid follow ups if he switches to roaches right away. I don't disagree with terran being weak part(perhaps in large portion because terrans havent been figured it out yet), but his posts are close to unbearable. "if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro". when u theorycraft u dont include which players are playing. when u make bos ur not supposed to care whos being the computer. im not gonna start talk about how to counter reapers but im just stating that ur way of thinking is completely garbage if u wanna create a solid strategy that doesnt die vs reapers for example.
do u not comprehend english?
I said roaches are not any more effective in stopping reaper harrass then lings are if you're playing someone with decent micro and would not win the game for Zpux.
Also while you're waiting for yourself to be proven right people like Jinro win tournaments.
Think about it.
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Replays of the ZOTAC StarCraft II Beta Cup #11 are online. Congrats to Naniwa for the hat trick =)
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On May 10 2010 03:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:07 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
hehe so you are saying that there are so many terran players that all they have to do is face each other and they end up in the finals? It's a fact that there have been a lot of terrans in the finals the last week/s. I only played 2 terran players this zotac (round 1, round 7). I played about an even distribution of Ps and Zs other than that... Anyway, on the topic of reapers, I don't know if I agree that Z should just "get 3 roaches and be safe", because non-speed roaches can't even hit speed reapers and if you mass roaches well.... I have 3 raxs with techlabs, how hard is it for me to make marauders? The most difficulties I've had with mass reaper builds is when the zerg goes muta which is why I went ghost after the reapers.
Oh, I'm not saying there are alot of terrans in the tourneys, it was just a way of interpreting the way Doomgaze made it out to be.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 10 2010 03:15 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:On May 10 2010 03:07 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
hehe so you are saying that there are so many terran players that all they have to do is face each other and they end up in the finals? It's a fact that there have been a lot of terrans in the finals the last week/s. I only played 2 terran players this zotac (round 1, round 7). I played about an even distribution of Ps and Zs other than that... An equal skilled Protoss will beat an equal skilled Terran - do you agree or disagree?.. It might be Terrans didnt find the right way to play yet, but I find a lot of mistakes in my play which I don't make anymore, but its not just my play that makes me lose some games.
If you could only get into the midgame the matchup would be fine and mostly balanced, and quite fun too, but I dunno how to do that so...
On May 10 2010 03:17 ZpuX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:On May 10 2010 03:07 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
hehe so you are saying that there are so many terran players that all they have to do is face each other and they end up in the finals? It's a fact that there have been a lot of terrans in the finals the last week/s. I only played 2 terran players this zotac (round 1, round 7). I played about an even distribution of Ps and Zs other than that... Anyway, on the topic of reapers, I don't know if I agree that Z should just "get 3 roaches and be safe", because non-speed roaches can't even hit speed reapers and if you mass roaches well.... I have 3 raxs with techlabs, how hard is it for me to make marauders? The most difficulties I've had with mass reaper builds is when the zerg goes muta which is why I went ghost after the reapers. Oh, I'm not saying there are alot of terrans in the tourneys, it was just a way of interpreting the way Doomgaze made it out to be.
Yeah I was just saying I don't agree with him 
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On May 10 2010 03:04 FreshVegetables wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
Source plz, because i'm pretty sure it was 3-4% and not 10%.
Note that these numbers only reflect overall platinum/gold leagues and their undisclosed, "factored for player skill" numbers show Z>P, P>T, and Z=T with no magnitudes given.
+ Show Spoiler +Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this. Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49% I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even. Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers. Source: Dev Chat 4/30
Sorry Jinro, felt really bad you lost 3-0 after that extremely solid defense in Game 1.
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On May 10 2010 03:15 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:06 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:53 lgd-haze wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think What does everyone on TL think? O_O lol On May 10 2010 02:54 FreshVegetables wrote:
Yeah, MorroW is totally exaggerating the balance issue. Sure there are minor things but that's surely not why MorroW nowdays gets eliminated in round 3-4 or so. There are certainly ways that Terran can overcome the rather small imbalances in the beta. gg wp Nani! im getting score 1-2 vs ra and 1-2 vs hasuobs. to be honest my scores in tvp r just completely random because the mu is really just a guessing game from terrans point of view. that i lose vs these random toss users maybe say im a bad player (which is bs) but it also says that its imbalanced and as i stated - luckbased i dont really think u can call it overexadurating if u look at the statistics. statistics favor me, public opinions on forums favor me. asia favor me, us too. ladder rankings favor me patch history favor me, blizzard interviews favor me. casters say what i say chat forums talk about what i talk about. when hydra attacked fast as hell, roach had 2 armor and hydra 90 life you zpux and all other zergs were convinced that i lost because i was playing badly. lets wait some more patches and watch me have right even more because each patch my words make truth so if u ppl who say im wrong wanna go down this road all over again then sure be my guest. sit next to me, sit and watch as toss and zerg being nerfed On May 10 2010 02:55 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think On May 10 2010 02:43 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:38 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:34 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 02:30 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:27 MorroW wrote:jesus rape 2nd game, missed 1st cause dinner naruto dont hold back ur opinions, many of us like hearing some insight of what others think of balance both dimaga and this toss guy sound alike, winning much but keep thinking terran is a strong race btw this zotac cup finals hasnt been very motivational so far xD I'm not saying Terran is unplayable nor superweak in any kind. But if the Protoss/Zerg keep telling me they are playing better and thats the reason for higher winrates of them, come on, don't these guys realize that their race got advantages?-_- As I said I'm not even crying, I'm just pointing out, there's definately individual skill for some players, but that doesn't make up for everything. Just like the marauder rushes in the beginning were insanely hard to defend so it wasn't really individual skill to win with it. If you keep doing the same strat all over again and still win, something is wrong. May I ask what this zerg strat is that all the zergs are doing over and over again? I agree on 4/5 gate being somewhat gay, but dont put zergs in the same boat TvZ is not so bad, but seriously I saw your games vs Jinro. You made a fool of yourself,... he went really reaperheavy and you stayed with lings.. 2-3 roaches would totally shut that down. ha-ha-ha why r ur posts always attacking someone elses post with 1-10 words without bringing anything urself to the table or even explaining why u disagree? in my book thats a troll because Naruto is a tool and he just spews nonsense for dramatic purposes and he knows it. I would perhaps put more effort into replying to his garbage of a post if he didnt manage to insult Zpux for no reason while at it. Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro. And when it is Jinro slow ass roaches don't exactly fare that well either. And its not like there arent solid follow ups if he switches to roaches right away. I don't disagree with terran being weak part(perhaps in large portion because terrans havent been figured it out yet), but his posts are close to unbearable. "if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro". when u theorycraft u dont include which players are playing. when u make bos ur not supposed to care whos being the computer. im not gonna start talk about how to counter reapers but im just stating that ur way of thinking is completely garbage if u wanna create a solid strategy that doesnt die vs reapers for example. do u not comprehend english? I said roaches are not any more effective in stopping reaper harrass then lings are if you're playing someone with decent micro and would not win the game for Zpux. Also while you're waiting for yourself to be proven right people like Jinro win tournaments. Think about it.
no. you said
"Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro"
now u meant Jinro = guy with good micro so then we have
"Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt good at micro"
then reverse the statement of isnt
"Lings does not shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers is good at micro"
yep, thats what u said and i just explained it step by step for u
the last 20 comments ive seen by u r always few few words so dont try to sneak out of this by blaming it on naruto
ur way of defending zpux with that way of strategic thinking is retarded. high players ASSUME they r good at micro
jesus man t,t
start putting in some greater quality in ur posts by explaining urself and why u think so instead of just openly mocking ppl like naruto. TL is a place for quality posts and not trolling
roaches r alot better at stopping reapers than lings in every way. unless u have speed lings. since i have no idea how the game looked i feel like an idiot talking about it
i think its alittle bad style of naruto to tell zpux how to play zvt and his errors because zpux is a very good player and im sure he knows the situation better than all of us here
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I didn't say there were a lot of terran players in the tournaments, neither was I trying to oppose the fact that there has been quite a few terran finalists lately.
Just that the brackets (and actual matchups) for the terran finalists during razer domination and TLI tournaments were noteworthy
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anyone notice naniwa dc'ed against mltn and then got a regame? mltn must be very nice because it looked like he coulda won the first game...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 10 2010 03:25 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:15 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 03:06 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:53 lgd-haze wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think What does everyone on TL think? O_O lol On May 10 2010 02:54 FreshVegetables wrote:
Yeah, MorroW is totally exaggerating the balance issue. Sure there are minor things but that's surely not why MorroW nowdays gets eliminated in round 3-4 or so. There are certainly ways that Terran can overcome the rather small imbalances in the beta. gg wp Nani! im getting score 1-2 vs ra and 1-2 vs hasuobs. to be honest my scores in tvp r just completely random because the mu is really just a guessing game from terrans point of view. that i lose vs these random toss users maybe say im a bad player (which is bs) but it also says that its imbalanced and as i stated - luckbased i dont really think u can call it overexadurating if u look at the statistics. statistics favor me, public opinions on forums favor me. asia favor me, us too. ladder rankings favor me patch history favor me, blizzard interviews favor me. casters say what i say chat forums talk about what i talk about. when hydra attacked fast as hell, roach had 2 armor and hydra 90 life you zpux and all other zergs were convinced that i lost because i was playing badly. lets wait some more patches and watch me have right even more because each patch my words make truth so if u ppl who say im wrong wanna go down this road all over again then sure be my guest. sit next to me, sit and watch as toss and zerg being nerfed On May 10 2010 02:55 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:46 MorroW wrote:On May 10 2010 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I played like an idiot game 1 but no excuses for game 2 and 3.
Gg wp. grats for staying manner but i think everyone on TL knows what u really think On May 10 2010 02:43 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 10 2010 02:38 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:34 ZpuX wrote:On May 10 2010 02:30 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 10 2010 02:27 MorroW wrote:jesus rape 2nd game, missed 1st cause dinner naruto dont hold back ur opinions, many of us like hearing some insight of what others think of balance both dimaga and this toss guy sound alike, winning much but keep thinking terran is a strong race btw this zotac cup finals hasnt been very motivational so far xD I'm not saying Terran is unplayable nor superweak in any kind. But if the Protoss/Zerg keep telling me they are playing better and thats the reason for higher winrates of them, come on, don't these guys realize that their race got advantages?-_- As I said I'm not even crying, I'm just pointing out, there's definately individual skill for some players, but that doesn't make up for everything. Just like the marauder rushes in the beginning were insanely hard to defend so it wasn't really individual skill to win with it. If you keep doing the same strat all over again and still win, something is wrong. May I ask what this zerg strat is that all the zergs are doing over and over again? I agree on 4/5 gate being somewhat gay, but dont put zergs in the same boat TvZ is not so bad, but seriously I saw your games vs Jinro. You made a fool of yourself,... he went really reaperheavy and you stayed with lings.. 2-3 roaches would totally shut that down. ha-ha-ha why r ur posts always attacking someone elses post with 1-10 words without bringing anything urself to the table or even explaining why u disagree? in my book thats a troll because Naruto is a tool and he just spews nonsense for dramatic purposes and he knows it. I would perhaps put more effort into replying to his garbage of a post if he didnt manage to insult Zpux for no reason while at it. Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro. And when it is Jinro slow ass roaches don't exactly fare that well either. And its not like there arent solid follow ups if he switches to roaches right away. I don't disagree with terran being weak part(perhaps in large portion because terrans havent been figured it out yet), but his posts are close to unbearable. "if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro". when u theorycraft u dont include which players are playing. when u make bos ur not supposed to care whos being the computer. im not gonna start talk about how to counter reapers but im just stating that ur way of thinking is completely garbage if u wanna create a solid strategy that doesnt die vs reapers for example. do u not comprehend english? I said roaches are not any more effective in stopping reaper harrass then lings are if you're playing someone with decent micro and would not win the game for Zpux. Also while you're waiting for yourself to be proven right people like Jinro win tournaments. Think about it. no. you said "Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro" now u meant Jinro = guy with good micro so then we have "Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt good at micro" then reverse the statement of isnt "Lings does not shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers is good at micro" yep, thats what u said and i just explained it step by step for u the last 20 comments ive seen by u r always few few words so dont try to sneak out of this by blaming it on naruto ur way of defending zpux with that way of strategic thinking is retarded. high players ASSUME they r good at micro jesus man t,t start putting in some greater quality in ur posts by explaining urself and why u think so instead of just openly mocking ppl like naruto. TL is a place for quality posts and not trolling roaches r alot better at stopping reapers than lings in every way. unless u have speed lings. since i have no idea how the game looked i feel like an idiot talking about it i think its alittle bad style of naruto to tell zpux how to play zvt and his errors because zpux is a very good player and im sure he knows the situation better than all of us here
Well, you've gotta take the second part of his statement into consideration:
Lings shut down reapers as effectively as roaches if the person microing reapers isnt Jinro. And when it is Jinro slow ass roaches don't exactly fare that well either. And its not like there arent solid follow ups if he switches to roaches right away.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On May 10 2010 03:12 ZpuX wrote:
I have one word which describes you perfectly, megalomania.
I think he just misused the word "favor", what he actually meant is "support my point of view".
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From what I see there seems to be A LOT of different playstyles that I've seen work in TvZ so people are clearly still playing around with the whole match up and as long as its changing that fast you can't really call imbalance. I've seen players make a lot of every single terran unit except battlecruisers as their standard TvZ.
In TvP, it looks like everyone is doing more or less the same thing though, whether or not they're missing something is uncertain, but they terrans seem to have a hard time winning a "straight-up" game against a protoss. I only ever see marauders with a support unit ghosts or banshees + medivacs in TvP, [Vikings or marines if he's going colossus/void ray, and you have no choice] except jinro was playing around with some other things to little success.
On May 10 2010 03:23 Hold-Lurker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:04 FreshVegetables wrote:On May 10 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
IIRC blizz has stated that there's a ~10% disadvantage in the TvP matchup. These statistics were generated from platinum and - I believe - even gold league ladder play. This means the actual number may very well be even higher at the top level (as if 10% wasn't a lot already).
And yes it's true that we've seen a few terran players making it to the finals over the last few tournaments. But it seems like a few of these terran players progressed by playing other terran/random users in the brackets, or playing offrace themselves.
Source plz, because i'm pretty sure it was 3-4% and not 10%. Note that these numbers only reflect overall platinum/gold leagues and their undisclosed, "factored for player skill" numbers show Z>P, P>T, and Z=T with no magnitudes given. + Show Spoiler +Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this. Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49% I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even. Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers. Source: Dev Chat 4/30Sorry Jinro, felt really bad you lost 3-0 after that extremely solid defense in Game 1.
This is total bias based on the information given. Either you say:
P>T
T=Z
Z=P
or you say
P>T
P>Z
T=Z
You can't mix/match
Unless you are talking about "the last time I saw" which is old information probably meaning before hydra/roach nerf patches.
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Sweden33719 Posts
In TvP, it looks like everyone is doing more or less the same thing though, whether or not they're missing something is uncertain, but they terrans seem to have a hard time winning a "straight-up" game against a protoss. I only ever see marauders with a support unit ghosts or banshees + medivacs in TvP, [Vikings or marines if he's going colossus/void ray, and you have no choice] except jinro was playing around with some other things to little success.
Was copying some Korean terran. He usually got reactor before fac, 2nd gas before 2nd supply but I gave up on that after losing so many marines/scvs to chronoboosted zealots in Craftcup semis yesterday =[
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Looking at tvp on a game to game basis would probably help much more than being stereotypish "tvp is broken". I as a Terran player can't work with "tvp is broken". Wouldn't it be way more constructive to look at each game individually to see what went wrong? O_o
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I just hate nani's playstyle so so much. Somthing is wrong when you can play a full tourny and end nearly every game in under 10 mins. Most his games was between 7-8 mins, and one got to 15 mins.
Need more advantages of defending, because warpgate totally removes that advantage when you can have your reforcements just as fast as the defender.
Looks like sentry dmg nerf wasnt enough.
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