EPTJust don't expect people to chime in and give you feedback if you respond that way.
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 21
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rewtamus
United States327 Posts
Just don't expect people to chime in and give you feedback if you respond that way. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On February 18 2016 13:49 rewtamus wrote: I mean you can continue to do what you are doing, doesn't matter to me. Just don't expect people to chime in and give you feedback if you respond that way. Ok, I'm sorry for saying I'm not as good as state to try to make a joke... I'll keep in mind in the future to never try to get any enjoyment out of any of this or think anything here should be done in good fun... | ||
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rewtamus
United States327 Posts
You are trying a 2 base build but staying on 1base, just take 2 bases. You cannot support all those gates + robo + forge on 1 base, the build I posted is basically the build you are doing, except optimized to work at high-level(because its good). Have you tried the build? | ||
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radazatl
11 Posts
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TedBurtle
Belarus201 Posts
On February 18 2016 21:10 radazatl wrote: Hey guys, can you please help me and tell me what to do against a cannon rush in PvP? focus canons over pylons. 4 probes per cannon, to not let it finish. survive till stalkers + msc, then micro out. if failed to scout/react quickly, make proxy nexus with scouting probe, get msc, and recall everything to proxy nexus, continue from there. if they cannon rush behind mineral line, try not to give space for enemy probe to full wall off,if walled off 2-6 probes per pylon and chrono zealots, you should be able to kill 3 pylons when they finished, then kill probe+cannons, and counter attack. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On February 18 2016 21:09 rewtamus wrote: Anyways back on topic. You are trying a 2 base build but staying on 1base, just take 2 bases. You cannot support all those gates + robo + forge on 1 base, the build I posted is basically the build you are doing, except optimized to work at high-level(because its good). Have you tried the build? I plan to try it as soon as I have time. I haven't had a chance to play since I last posted, I'm buying out another company and pretty much all of my time has gone into that. As soon as I get some free time I plan to try it out. | ||
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rewtamus
United States327 Posts
On February 19 2016 04:05 Hyper1 wrote: I plan to try it as soon as I have time. I haven't had a chance to play since I last posted, I'm buying out another company and pretty much all of my time has gone into that. As soon as I get some free time I plan to try it out. Use your IRL ferocity, pretend you are buying a company when you want to expand :p | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On February 19 2016 06:14 rewtamus wrote: Use your IRL ferocity, pretend you are buying a company when you want to expand :p So wait, you're saying when I play starcraft, I should play 16 hours a day for months before I expand? You say I should expand faster, and now want me to expand at the 57,600 min mark? Lol. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
Otherwise my PvP is probably my best match up right now, PvZ isn't bad, PvT is a loss unless they don't build liberators, don't drop, and don't rush me early game. Which leads to my next questions. What counters liberators? I know blink stalkers if you have 3+ you'll only lose 2 if you're facing a single liberator by itself, and I know teching all the way to Tempest you can widdle them down if you're left alone and they don't respond at all. But is there actually a good option? Say the terran is smart enough to build vikings, or marines also? Or worst of all, tanks and liberators. If the only way for protoss to win is to perfectly counter your opponent or have an army twice as large, what's a counter to Liberator that's not bad? When I build tempest, they just build vikings and I'm SOL. Next is scouting. How do you scout terran? If stargate is required for every match so I can tech to tempest to at least semi stand up to liberators, how do I scout terran? If I do choose to go robo and just pray they don't build liberators, my observer usually can't find a way in because of missile turrets. Which I can't seem to find any way to punish them for it. So how do I scout to know the units I have to build to stand up to him? The other question about scouting, is how do I scout the entire map on a larger map like ruins of serras? I lost a game to a zerg who took a gold base, but by the time I scouted it, his army was far too large to push in and stop it. There's a lot of places to proxy a base, so do I just constantly send a probe around and hope I find it sooner rather than later? My next question is about dealing with terran mobility. Do I have to keep a small army at every mineral line? If I do that, how does my army ever engage the terran if my army is split? If I don't keep an army there, how do I deal with drops like that? They drop, I move to stop them, and they pick up and move to another base, and by the time I get there, they pick up and go somewhere else. My ground units just can't seem to keep up with a medivac, especially when flying over things I have to go around. I can stop them from killing any base, but they still deal massive damage to my probes. I've tried putting cannons in my mineral line, and they die too fast. I've tried keeping my MSC between my bases but by the time I get there, and photon overcharge, my pylon gets off 1 maybe 2 shots before it falls, not nearly enough to prevent massive damage. I haven't yet found a way to be mobile enough to stop that. I can do OK if I use photon cannons, MSC, and build a couple phoenix to patrol each path to my base, but that's a huge investment, at which point he can just push in normally and crush me because of it. Then what about liberator harass? I've tried various pylons placements but I haven't found what can stop all liberator positions. Is there a way to stop them cost effectively? If I'm able to respond fast enough to move my probes before he gets a shot off, and have phoenix patrolling I can kill it with only loss of mining time. I also understand if I have blink already and stalkers, then I can blink them in and only lose 2 of them, but I still don't think that's cost effective. But what about earlier than blink is out? Especially if I go resonating glaives instead. Odds are I'm building adepts if I'm doing that, and the liberators can't be touched. I find my only option at this point is to pull probes and lose mining time, wait for another warp in, and warp in 4 stalkers and lose 3 trying to kill it. Which is definitely not cost effective. So against terran do I have to open blink stalker as well as stargate every game to not lose outright? If I do that, how do I not then lose to a push at my front door? How do I deal with an early game marine/marauder/tank push? I delay as long as possible by sticking against my base. I use PO to stall for another second or two, try to get as many warp in cycles as I can out and change my chrono's over to production, or possibly upgrades if they're close to completing. I can usually hold off the initial push, but it's the second push that usually just ends me. I know zealots will just be a waste of time, so I try to warp in adepts and stalkers, but it still get's crushed. I might be able to push to T2 production faster but what would be the best option? Would an oracle help? I don't think a phoenix would be overly useful with marines there, maybe a void ray? My only other option is robo, but I feel like immortals would get crushed by marines. Plus if I go robo, how do I not just lose to the starport followup? I was watching a match from IEM when in a PvT the announcers said the protoss lost because it was 3 base to 3 base and protoss has to be up on bases to win, and will lose on equal bases. Is that true? If so, how do I expand faster, but keep an army big enough to deal with him? My last and possibly most stupid question, is when do I attack? I've noticed in my last few games, I never push out to attack my opponent, I see pro's do it with only a few units, but I'm never sure when I'm supposed to. People talk about timing attacks, and I understand the concept of it, but have no idea how to do it myself. My upgrades almost never seem to matter at all. No matter how much higher my upgrades are, I still lose engagements, even if I have the advantage in army size and upgrades. So do upgrades even matter? I've noticed even pro's skipping them all together. I've tried a couple games to move out with 3-4 units, but I usually just lose the units which I know isn't good, and it's normally when I go up a ramp or something where I can't see the larger army sitting there. I'm sure I could pull out if I was watching more, but I'm not sure how to both watch that, and still build and warp in back at home. Sorry for the long post. I played a lot of games last night and thismorning, and after reviewing them I noticed some trends and want to figure out how to deal with them. I tried finding replays to see what pro's did, and I either just see pro's lose to it, or it not come up at all. And yes I know I need to play faster, make fewer mistakes, and spend resources better... but I'm not falling behind my opponents in those area's and I figure it's just going to take time and practice, but I want to know how to beat an opponent of equal skill in those area's, or at least how to counter them so I'm not losing to players I have the advantage over because of something I don't know how to handle efficiently. | ||
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t0ssboy
Bulgaria681 Posts
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Supah
708 Posts
Just started playing after a long, long time. Economy feels weird. But the MUs feel weird too. Toss now kind of feels like Terran before. Onus is on you to harass now. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On February 21 2016 04:22 Hyper1 wrote: Geez, I'm pumping out gold here and not even a chuckle... Anyway I've been watching more games and had time to play again. So question about APM, if my APM has to be over 100 to be allowed to harass, and if I don't harass terran/zerg it's pretty much a complete loss unless they just don't build anything at all, what else am I supposed to be doing? I'm sitting at about 60 apm right now, and it's not like 60 apm and can't fit more in, it's 60 apm and I don't know what else to do, especially early game. So if I'm at 1 action per second, what are the other 4-5 actions every second I'm supposed to be doing? Especially in early game. Later on when I'm in combat I'll hit 100-200 apm if I'm microing and trying to produce units. But I have no idea the other few hundred actions I'm supposed to be doing every minute. + Show Spoiler + 1.) Its generally believed that you need over 100 APM to macro properly. So that is your main priority ifor your APM. However with tat being said. You ant win if you are not watching your army. So focus on your macro. and executing a build as crisply as possible. Then when its time to fight, focus on your army and getting a good concave, Storm, or Disruptor shot. I think you should just learn and stick to several 2 base all-ins in every matchup till you get tot he point where you are sitting there thinking I wish I could do more on the map with my units to gain an advantage. At that point go back to 3+ base macro play. Otherwise my PvP is probably my best match up right now, PvZ isn't bad, PvT is a loss unless they don't build liberators, don't drop, and don't rush me early game. Which leads to my next questions. What counters liberators? I know blink stalkers if you have 3+ you'll only lose 2 if you're facing a single liberator by itself, and I know teching all the way to Tempest you can widdle them down if you're left alone and they don't respond at all. But is there actually a good option? Say the terran is smart enough to build vikings, or marines also? Or worst of all, tanks and liberators. If the only way for protoss to win is to perfectly counter your opponent or have an army twice as large, what's a counter to Liberator that's not bad? When I build tempest, they just build vikings and I'm SOL. + Show Spoiler + 2.) The best counter to Liberators are Tempests. But there is no good answer to Liberators. Fast teching to Tempests is suicide on most spawn locations on most maps except maybe Ulrena. Once you have 6 gas geysers and a form of AoE to deal with the MMM, then you can think of getting Tempests. Till then, Blink Stalkers are your best bet. Next is scouting. How do you scout terran? If stargate is required for every match so I can tech to tempest to at least semi stand up to liberators, how do I scout terran? If I do choose to go robo and just pray they don't build liberators, my observer usually can't find a way in because of missile turrets. Which I can't seem to find any way to punish them for it. So how do I scout to know the units I have to build to stand up to him? The other question about scouting, is how do I scout the entire map on a larger map like ruins of serras? I lost a game to a zerg who took a gold base, but by the time I scouted it, his army was far too large to push in and stop it. There's a lot of places to proxy a base, so do I just constantly send a probe around and hope I find it sooner rather than later? + Show Spoiler + 3.) If your opponent is building so many Turrets, so fast, that you cant get an observer into their base to scout with a 2 base Robo build. Then they probably have no units. So you should just do your pre-planned All-in and just kill them cuz Turrets only shoot up or take a fast 3rd base and hit a later bigger all-in timing with AoE. And mind your Observer when you fly it near their base. They need 8+ Turrets (spitball estimate) to deny an Observer which is 600 minerals. So that's either a free Nexus for you or you are careless with your scouting and keep flying into Turrets. And make sure they are not going mass Starport because you can lose to that when unscouted, even with a superior econ. Ruins of Seras is tough to deny/scout hidden expos. I would just send a probe around all the bases after you take some form of map control in the mid-game. If they have a proxy/hidden base, build a pylon out of range, then warp in whatever gateway units fit the bill. NOTE:They should have a weaker/smaller army for a period of time. Scouting should be easier because they will be turtling in their base. My next question is about dealing with terran mobility. Do I have to keep a small army at every mineral line? If I do that, how does my army ever engage the terran if my army is split? If I don't keep an army there, how do I deal with drops like that? They drop, I move to stop them, and they pick up and move to another base, and by the time I get there, they pick up and go somewhere else. My ground units just can't seem to keep up with a medivac, especially when flying over things I have to go around. I can stop them from killing any base, but they still deal massive damage to my probes. I've tried putting cannons in my mineral line, and they die too fast. I've tried keeping my MSC between my bases but by the time I get there, and photon overcharge, my pylon gets off 1 maybe 2 shots before it falls, not nearly enough to prevent massive damage. I haven't yet found a way to be mobile enough to stop that. I can do OK if I use photon cannons, MSC, and build a couple phoenix to patrol each path to my base, but that's a huge investment, at which point he can just push in normally and crush me because of it. + Show Spoiler + 4.) Vision is key in SC2. Here's an elegant, but simple solution. You like your Stargate play against Terran. You fear Liberators and drops. Phoenix do wonders against both. You already know that. But have you tried getting an Oracle first? Harass with it if you can, but most importantly don't let it die. You can use Revelation on his Medivacs every minute or so. You now have vision of his army movements on the Minimap. You now don't need cannons, or units everywhere. If he tries to drop you. The Phoenix clean it up mid flight. But do try to fast tech to AoE, because a straight army push up the front can still kill you. Then what about liberator harass? I've tried various pylons placements but I haven't found what can stop all liberator positions. Is there a way to stop them cost effectively? If I'm able to respond fast enough to move my probes before he gets a shot off, and have phoenix patrolling I can kill it with only loss of mining time. I also understand if I have blink already and stalkers, then I can blink them in and only lose 2 of them, but I still don't think that's cost effective. But what about earlier than blink is out? Especially if I go resonating glaives instead. Odds are I'm building adepts if I'm doing that, and the liberators can't be touched. I find my only option at this point is to pull probes and lose mining time, wait for another warp in, and warp in 4 stalkers and lose 3 trying to kill it. Which is definitely not cost effective. So against terran do I have to open blink stalker as well as stargate every game to not lose outright? If I do that, how do I not then lose to a push at my front door? + Show Spoiler + 5.) Liberators are good. I can't help you with that. There are some spots that are un defendable. Just konw that if he has teched to Liberators and gotten teh siege range upgrade so early that you dont have Blnik done. I.E 2 base. hes not sitting on a strong ground force, and I think some kind of aggression is possible to even the damage. Either a Glaves +1 Attack/Warp Prism timing attack or a simple Immortal bust, w/ or w/o Glaves/Blink/Charge. And I would take a 3rd behind the push. The best response however is to throw down a a last second pylon as close to the Liberator as possible while it sieges up. Especially if that spot is hard for a Stalker to maneuver. Which it most likely will be. How do I deal with an early game marine/marauder/tank push? I delay as long as possible by sticking against my base. I use PO to stall for another second or two, try to get as many warp in cycles as I can out and change my chrono's over to production, or possibly upgrades if they're close to completing. I can usually hold off the initial push, but it's the second push that usually just ends me. I know zealots will just be a waste of time, so I try to warp in adepts and stalkers, but it still get's crushed. I might be able to push to T2 production faster but what would be the best option? Would an oracle help? I don't think a phoenix would be overly useful with marines there, maybe a void ray? My only other option is robo, but I feel like immortals would get crushed by marines. Plus if I go robo, how do I not just lose to the starport followup? + Show Spoiler + 6.) Make units. Get gateways up. Delay making probes to make the gateways faster. Chrono your gateways or warp tech (if that hasn't finished). If Terran is on 1 base, and you went Twilight. Make a DT Shrine. 1 Orbital means 1 scan every 40ish seconds. Defensive Dts win the game right there (Use 1 Dt at a time). Its a positioning battle. The Phoenix can be use to stop reinforcements and prevent the Marines from straying too far from the Tanks. All three tech routes work. Immortals do very well, even with Marines present. Again, its all about positioning. Having a Probe out on the map to make Pylons for Zealot counter attacks is nice. Also just warping in units outside of your base for a flank is very effective. A Warp Prism to drop Zealots on top of the Tanks when the Marines get too over eager. Literally, there is a solution with every tech choice. But the biggest thing is to DROP THOSE GATEWAYS once you scout the push....more units beats less units nearly every time. Simple yet effective. I was watching a match from IEM when in a PvT the announcers said the protoss lost because it was 3 base to 3 base and protoss has to be up on bases to win, and will lose on equal bases. Is that true? If so, how do I expand faster, but keep an army big enough to deal with him? + Show Spoiler + 7.) Protoss typically wants to take the expo faster than the Terran, but its not a hard an fast rule. And you definitely don't need to have more bases than them. The same rule applies for Zerg vs X. They want to have the expo sooner than P or T but they don't need to have more bases to be ahead. My last and possibly most stupid question, is when do I attack? I've noticed in my last few games, I never push out to attack my opponent, I see pro's do it with only a few units, but I'm never sure when I'm supposed to. People talk about timing attacks, and I understand the concept of it, but have no idea how to do it myself. My upgrades almost never seem to matter at all. No matter how much higher my upgrades are, I still lose engagements, even if I have the advantage in army size and upgrades. So do upgrades even matter? I've noticed even pro's skipping them all together. I've tried a couple games to move out with 3-4 units, but I usually just lose the units which I know isn't good, and it's normally when I go up a ramp or something where I can't see the larger army sitting there. I'm sure I could pull out if I was watching more, but I'm not sure how to both watch that, and still build and warp in back at home. + Show Spoiler + 8.) This is the hardest part of SC2. Its not stupid at all. There are several ways of knowing when to push out. Are your units more mobile than theirs? Yes? You can push out. I.E. Phoenix, Mass Adepts, Healthy number of Blink Stalkers. Is your army stronger in a straight up fight? Yes? You can push out. I.E. An all-in or timing attack. Do you have some form of unit that gives you positional advantage, AoE damage, or splash damage? I.E. Sentey Forcefields, Stalkers w/ Blink, Tanks. 4+ Disruptor shots, Colossi/Storm. Do you have vision of your opponents army? Yes? You can push out and be on the map even if their army is bigger, stronger, etc. The pros know when they can push out because they usually are executing a specific timing that gives them map control. Also another good time to fight your opponent (usually this is out on the map) are when your Attack/Armor upgrades finish. Your army gets significantly stronger (Yes UPGRADES are a huge deal) when they finish so its usually a good time to be aggressive. However every second that ticks is another second your opponent has to catch up with their own upgrades. So its not concrete. You can create your own timing, but that takes trial and error. Its much easier to steal a build and adjust it to fit your play style by either adding gates earlier for more aggressive play (delaying tech/upgrades), or more Nexi/tech for passive play (delaying gateways). Pros sometimes don't get upgrades because they know the game will eb won or lost before the upgrade finishes. It takes 174 in game seconds to get the first Armor.Attack upgrade. Forge (60 secs) + upgrade (114 secs). Trust me, they want the upgrades,but they know it wont help them from losing in the next three minutes. So if an all-in is coming or going, its usually already too late. THe 150 minerals for the gateway is a better decision. Sorry for the long post. I played a lot of games last night and thismorning, and after reviewing them I noticed some trends and want to figure out how to deal with them. I tried finding replays to see what pro's did, and I either just see pro's lose to it, or it not come up at all. And yes I know I need to play faster, make fewer mistakes, and spend resources better... but I'm not falling behind my opponents in those area's and I figure it's just going to take time and practice, but I want to know how to beat an opponent of equal skill in those area's, or at least how to counter them so I'm not losing to players I have the advantage over because of something I don't know how to handle efficiently. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On February 21 2016 05:00 t0ssboy wrote: What's a good aggressive/cheesy build for every match up at a high level(Masters+)? Looking to mix up my play since there are some LANs incoming and i can't just rely on one build. No such build exists. You need to tailor it tho the race you are playing somewhat. But a proxy 3 gate could work in every matchup on 2 spawn maps. However cheeky plays like proxy Stargates work on all three races, but are not used for an all-in. | ||
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joshie0808
Canada1024 Posts
On February 21 2016 15:52 Supah wrote: What do Adepts beat in a fight with Glaives/without Glaives? Speedlings? Slowlings? Speed Roaches? Stim Marine? Stim M/M/M? Stalkers with Blinker? Chargelots? Spending my money feels really, really weird. Even on three bases, I seem to be floating gas a ton. I don't really know when to tech, I don't really know WHAT to tech. Basically getting by in Diamond because macro still counts for something I guess. Just started playing after a long, long time. Economy feels weird. But the MUs feel weird too. Toss now kind of feels like Terran before. Onus is on you to harass now. When your army is adept heavy you tend to float gas. You can get your archives much faster and get HT as your AoE support rather than robo tech, which is mineral heavy. Also if you are adept heavy you'll be wanting glaives so you are already teching that way. | ||
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citizenhero
1 Post
ggtracker.com | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On February 28 2016 04:09 citizenhero wrote: I was diamond at the end of hots and I have been stuck in gold ever since lotv came out. I'm mainly having problems against zerg. The replay I attached is typical of my games. I try to open stargate abd expand to three bases when possible. I prefer macro games and against zerg is seems like they can overpower me so easily. Can someone please take a look at this replay and tell me if you see any glaring issues? Thanks in advance. ggtracker.com I'm not able to watch the replay, but I skimmed through GGtracker. It seems you're getting a lot of early cannons, they aren't necessary and just slow your build down. Stick to Pylons and units for defense. Also, Colossi aren't that good against Zerg, stick to Phoenix into Chargelot Archon Immortal (2 Robos), adding Storm later, and then Tempests if they go into Brood Lords. On February 28 2016 11:44 Supah wrote: PvP, entering in the mid/late game, what unit comp? Opponent went Chargelots with cannons and some Blink Stalkers/Voids (very late Disruptor/Archon). Blink Stalkers melted against them. Had nothing to tank for Disruptors, hard to aim against Chargelots anyway. Unsure what to go for or what to punish. Stalker Disruptor can hold its own vs almost anything (see herO vs Seed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYdqgPCl3t8), but it's difficult and you can lose your whole army very quickly if you aren't careful. Seed's composition in that game is actually pretty good, though he did get outplayed pretty badly. Chargelot Archon Immortal, then add Phoenixes when they go into Disruptor. Also generally if they go for a really high Void Ray count they you need to get Storm. | ||
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ThreeLilpigs
14 Posts
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Icekin
88 Posts
On March 01 2016 01:10 ThreeLilpigs wrote: guys can you help me how to do wall off in ruins of seras against zerg... so annoying to completely get run by Build 1-2 pylon between ramp and natural nexus, place gateways to complete wall from ramp to nexus. This way u r main ramp will be extra safe while forcing enemy units to take your po | ||
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ThreeLilpigs
14 Posts
On March 01 2016 16:16 Icekin wrote: Build 1-2 pylon between ramp and natural nexus, place gateways to complete wall from ramp to nexus. This way u r main ramp will be extra safe while forcing enemy units to take your po is it possible to wall off with your first pylon and gateway or do it after a wall has been made in the main base? | ||
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