EPTwhy is the most common "middle-ground" build order in PvT and PvP 'Gate-Gas-19 Nexus-Cybercore' instead of 'Gate-17 Nexus-Gas-Cybercore'? The obvious negative impact of getting gas first is that you delay your expansion quite a bit. Could someone point out the positive part of the tradeoff to me?
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 23
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sdpg_spad
Russian Federation5 Posts
why is the most common "middle-ground" build order in PvT and PvP 'Gate-Gas-19 Nexus-Cybercore' instead of 'Gate-17 Nexus-Gas-Cybercore'? The obvious negative impact of getting gas first is that you delay your expansion quite a bit. Could someone point out the positive part of the tradeoff to me? | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
On March 12 2016 04:04 sdpg_spad wrote: Hello everybody, why is the most common "middle-ground" build order in PvT and PvP 'Gate-Gas-19 Nexus-Cybercore' instead of 'Gate-17 Nexus-Gas-Cybercore'? The obvious negative impact of getting gas first is that you delay your expansion quite a bit. Could someone point out the positive part of the tradeoff to me? With gate gas nexus you rally probes into the gas after 16 on minerals, and this lets you get mcore/adept/wg immediately when the core finishes. If you wanted to do the same with gate nexus, you would need double gas, and that delays your cybercore. Also if you need for some reason to not take the expansion, you have gas available to spend when you need it( proxy 3-4 gate, proxy rax etc.) You would be surprised tho, 75 minerals doesn't delay the nexus that much. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
Every game ends up the same. I have the army advantage, income advantage, upgrade advantage, and then I lose because he attacks and my army just dies. Nothing seems to trade cost effectively with marines. So how to I either get to T3 before he can build marines, or have an economic lead that's so insanely past his that I can have 2 units for every one of his marines to hopefully win based on pure numbers? | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
On March 19 2016 03:37 Hyper1 wrote: Is there any way other than teching to T3 to withstand marines? My last 5 games have been against gold/silver terran and all they do is build marines and liberators, and nothing seems to stop it. If I try to quickly tech to T3 so I can deal with marines, then I die because I don't have an army. If I build an army, I die because marines seem to beat everything short from T3 AOE. What the marines don't beat, the liberators do. Every game ends up the same. I have the army advantage, income advantage, upgrade advantage, and then I lose because he attacks and my army just dies. Nothing seems to trade cost effectively with marines. So how to I either get to T3 before he can build marines, or have an economic lead that's so insanely past his that I can have 2 units for every one of his marines to hopefully win based on pure numbers? vs marines liberators just go adepts tempests. You need to use adepts to counter early bio from terran, then tech to templars and immortals and slowly to tempest. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
My tempest usually end up getting killed before tickling the liberators to death, assuming I'm lucky enough for the terran to just leave them sitting there doing anything. And even on equal upgrades, marines still seem to trade way more cost effective than adepts do since the nerf. But what I'm getting is the answer is no. There is no counter to anything terran until T3. Just trying to not completely lose to terran, and praying they just don't attack or build units, until I can build the perfect combination of units to deal with terrans basic unit. To 'counter' liberators, I need tempest. To counter marines, I need HT. But what happens if he builds marines before I can tech to HT? Do I have to open stargate every game to not auto lose when liberators show up? How do I survive long enough to even get to the end of the tech tree when it seems terran have an easier time teching to marines and liberators, than I do teching to both HT and Tempest. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
On March 19 2016 03:37 Hyper1 wrote: Is there any way other than teching to T3 to withstand marines? My last 5 games have been against gold/silver terran and all they do is build marines and liberators, and nothing seems to stop it. If I try to quickly tech to T3 so I can deal with marines, then I die because I don't have an army. If I build an army, I die because marines seem to beat everything short from T3 AOE. What the marines don't beat, the liberators do. Every game ends up the same. I have the army advantage, income advantage, upgrade advantage, and then I lose because he attacks and my army just dies. Nothing seems to trade cost effectively with marines. So how to I either get to T3 before he can build marines, or have an economic lead that's so insanely past his that I can have 2 units for every one of his marines to hopefully win based on pure numbers? I wouldn't be surprised if it a macro issue but w/e. I play stalker adept immortal into late colo and win most PvT. I wrote up the build here: https://www.reddit.com/r/allthingsprotoss/comments/46y2gl/my_pvt_build_miniguide/ . You don't need tier 3 to beat marines, a good gateway army will do the trick | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On March 19 2016 07:56 mGGrinehart wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if it a macro issue but w/e. I play stalker adept immortal into late colo and win most PvT. I wrote up the build here: https://www.reddit.com/r/allthingsprotoss/comments/46y2gl/my_pvt_build_miniguide/ . You don't need tier 3 to beat marines, a good gateway army will do the trick I agree. I'm nowhere near Probe's level, but I can confirm a solid gateway army (adepts + blink stalkers, don't forget a sentry or two for the guardian shield and have double forges working) works fine. You can then get colossi and storm if needed. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On March 19 2016 07:56 mGGrinehart wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if it a macro issue but w/e. I play stalker adept immortal into late colo and win most PvT. I wrote up the build here: https://www.reddit.com/r/allthingsprotoss/comments/46y2gl/my_pvt_build_miniguide/ . You don't need tier 3 to beat marines, a good gateway army will do the trick Yes, I understand if you play insanely better than your opponent, or your opponent is a complete idiot, you can win. However I'm talking about an even match. I realize that if someone makes master, yes, they might be able to beat someone in bronze regardless of builds, however simply moving on to the next rank doesn't fix the problem, as then I'll just lose to the people there... As far as gateway units. Exactly which gateway unit trades cost effectively with marines and liberators? From what I've seen you need to sacrifice a lot of stalkers, and stop mining, just to deal with a single liberator. As far as marines, nothing baring having more than 1 to 1 with units that are 2-3 times as expensive, can even win an engagement, little oh trade cost effectively. I'm not asking about how to win by playing people who are much, much worse than me, I'm asking how to win an even match up, and what units prior to the absolute end of the tech trees, can stand up to terrans first unit. PvP is easy, I've got a good win rate against gold/plat, zerg isn't bad, with a decent win rate against gold/plat. PvT unless the terran just doesn't build marines or liberators, I'm pretty much going to lose if they're silver or above. Larger armies of gateway units lose to marines, robo/stargate units mixed in don't help. Unless he sits back and leaves me alone long enough to get to colossus, my armies lose in every single engagement regardless. It's very annoying having the clear advantage in every possible way, but he sends in marines and it's game over if I don't have 2-3 units for every 1 of his, or have colossus/HT. | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
On March 19 2016 11:34 Hyper1 wrote: Yes, I understand if you play insanely better than your opponent, or your opponent is a complete idiot, you can win. However I'm talking about an even match. I realize that if someone makes master, yes, they might be able to beat someone in bronze regardless of builds, however simply moving on to the next rank doesn't fix the problem, as then I'll just lose to the people there... As far as gateway units. Exactly which gateway unit trades cost effectively with marines and liberators? From what I've seen you need to sacrifice a lot of stalkers, and stop mining, just to deal with a single liberator. As far as marines, nothing baring having more than 1 to 1 with units that are 2-3 times as expensive, can even win an engagement, little oh trade cost effectively. I'm not asking about how to win by playing people who are much, much worse than me, I'm asking how to win an even match up, and what units prior to the absolute end of the tech trees, can stand up to terrans first unit. PvP is easy, I've got a good win rate against gold/plat, zerg isn't bad, with a decent win rate against gold/plat. PvT unless the terran just doesn't build marines or liberators, I'm pretty much going to lose if they're silver or above. Larger armies of gateway units lose to marines, robo/stargate units mixed in don't help. Unless he sits back and leaves me alone long enough to get to colossus, my armies lose in every single engagement regardless. It's very annoying having the clear advantage in every possible way, but he sends in marines and it's game over if I don't have 2-3 units for every 1 of his, or have colossus/HT. Well maybe if you watch some the replays in the thread you will see how I deal with liberators and bio pushes. It isn't a single gateway unit that wins it. It is the mixture of adept stalker and a few sentries for guardian shield + forcefields to split the army. Then once the bio army starts getting a bit higher you add some immortals to break through the medivac healing. Then once they start getting a few liberators in their bio ball you add some colo so that you have even more damage so that you can focus the liberators down with the stalkers while the adept + immortal + colo deals with the ground. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On March 19 2016 13:46 mGGrinehart wrote: Well maybe if you watch some the replays in the thread you will see how I deal with liberators and bio pushes. It isn't a single gateway unit that wins it. It is the mixture of adept stalker and a few sentries for guardian shield + forcefields to split the army. Then once the bio army starts getting a bit higher you add some immortals to break through the medivac healing. Then once they start getting a few liberators in their bio ball you add some colo so that you have even more damage so that you can focus the liberators down with the stalkers while the adept + immortal + colo deals with the ground. What ratio of units do I need to be able to deal with marines? I don't use a ton of sentries, simply because they're micro intensive. I know that while my opponent is a-moving marines at me, if I focus too much on micro, then he simply out macro's me because he doesn't have to bother with micro at all, and only needs one units to force me into perfect combinations of units. I would think that being balanced, we would have something that's not super advanced, or requires a perfect combination of units and a lot of micro, just to handle a-move from terrans basic unit. So if I get the perfect combination of units to survive marines walking in to my base, how do I also macro as fast as he can with all his attention, while having to focus on my micro at the same time? I feel if we're both equally matched, there's no way to micro, while macroing just as good as my opponent. | ||
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brmr2k
9 Posts
On March 19 2016 14:06 Hyper1 wrote: What ratio of units do I need to be able to deal with marines? I don't use a ton of sentries, simply because they're micro intensive. I know that while my opponent is a-moving marines at me, if I focus too much on micro, then he simply out macro's me because he doesn't have to bother with micro at all, and only needs one units to force me into perfect combinations of units. I would think that being balanced, we would have something that's not super advanced, or requires a perfect combination of units and a lot of micro, just to handle a-move from terrans basic unit. So if I get the perfect combination of units to survive marines walking in to my base, how do I also macro as fast as he can with all his attention, while having to focus on my micro at the same time? I feel if we're both equally matched, there's no way to micro, while macroing just as good as my opponent. against marines (and marauders) it is mandatory to start utilising the sentry's power. I. e. the guardian shield reduces ranged attacks by 2 decreasing marines attack from 5 to 3 which is about 40% of their dps. example: + Show Spoiler + 7 Adepts, 1 Sentry vs. 20 Marines = 750/275 M/G vs. 1000/0 M/G (results vary) a-move = Terran victory with ~10 minerals left activated guardian shield = Protoss victory with 3-5 Adepts, 1 Sentry left same fight, completely different ending just by activating one ability that has not to be researched. you can/should use a unit tester to play around a bit with compositions you have difficulties with. especially when you have the feeling your opponents just a-move and win. fun-fact: this works same with marauders as they have 2x5 attack where each attack is reduced by 2. hence the the overall attack of 10 is reduced by 4 which is again 40% of their dps. tl;dr guardian shield against low attack units is "sooo strong" | ||
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ThreeLilpigs
14 Posts
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On March 20 2016 02:25 brmr2k wrote: against marines (and marauders) it is mandatory to start utilising the sentry's power. I. e. the guardian shield reduces ranged attacks by 2 decreasing marines attack from 5 to 3 which is about 40% of their dps. example: + Show Spoiler + 7 Adepts, 1 Sentry vs. 20 Marines = 750/275 M/G vs. 1000/0 M/G (results vary) a-move = Terran victory with ~10 minerals left activated guardian shield = Protoss victory with 3-5 Adepts, 1 Sentry left same fight, completely different ending just by activating one ability that has not to be researched. you can/should use a unit tester to play around a bit with compositions you have difficulties with. especially when you have the feeling your opponents just a-move and win. fun-fact: this works same with marauders as they have 2x5 attack where each attack is reduced by 2. hence the the overall attack of 10 is reduced by 4 which is again 40% of their dps. tl;dr guardian shield against low attack units is "sooo strong" But if I build adepts and sentries, how do I not just completely lose if he goes liberator after marine? Also, I've had some really good luck with multi-oracle attack. Building 2 stargates, either in my base or proxied. build 4-5 oracles, then attack. I've been able to destroy any defensive marines, as well as wiping out both mineral lines. At one point I was even able to target down a turret. Is this style decent, or is it only because of the people at my level? | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On March 20 2016 02:55 ThreeLilpigs wrote: what time do you usually get the 2 assimilators on your 1st expansion? I usually get it after my cyber. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On March 20 2016 04:16 Hyper1 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 20 2016 02:25 brmr2k wrote: against marines (and marauders) it is mandatory to start utilising the sentry's power. I. e. the guardian shield reduces ranged attacks by 2 decreasing marines attack from 5 to 3 which is about 40% of their dps. example: + Show Spoiler + 7 Adepts, 1 Sentry vs. 20 Marines = 750/275 M/G vs. 1000/0 M/G (results vary) a-move = Terran victory with ~10 minerals left activated guardian shield = Protoss victory with 3-5 Adepts, 1 Sentry left same fight, completely different ending just by activating one ability that has not to be researched. you can/should use a unit tester to play around a bit with compositions you have difficulties with. especially when you have the feeling your opponents just a-move and win. fun-fact: this works same with marauders as they have 2x5 attack where each attack is reduced by 2. hence the the overall attack of 10 is reduced by 4 which is again 40% of their dps. tl;dr guardian shield against low attack units is "sooo strong" But if I build adepts and sentries, how do I not just completely lose if he goes liberator after marine? It really depends on the timing of which you want the game to revolve around. If you want to finish the terran with a timing, or at least severely crippling him, around 7-14 stalkers will be able to deal with 3-5 liberators. As you go on, supplement archons for timings. If you aim for long macro games, you want HT's, but to deal with Liberators specifically it's either tempest or carriers depending on your economic situation. Remember, liberators is a unit whose utility is publicly announced to the world and as of such, there are many ways to circumvent their damage by flanking, blinking etc. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
So what can I do to practice getting my APM higher, and what am I supposed to be doing when I have no minerals and just waiting on probes to mine? | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
there's no one way you raise your APM other than practicing and applying your experience mentally while you play | ||
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ThreeLilpigs
14 Posts
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PPN
France248 Posts
On March 20 2016 22:58 ThreeLilpigs wrote: sorry let me re phrase my question. what time do you get the 2 assimilators on your 1st expansion =) 1st gas is mandatory to get anything going. 2nd gas is taken right as you are about to choose tech. The true question you should be asking yourself is what is your plan/what is the BO you are going for. | ||
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