|
On March 20 2016 15:26 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, I apparently really need to get my APM up. I fluxuate between 65-75 depending on how much is going on. I just can't find more things to click, especially earlier in the game when I have nothing to do waiting on more minerals. It's not bad when facing off against a gold/plat player, however lately I've somehow been getting matched up against bronze and silver players that just crush me across the board, APM between 150-300, and just crush me. I have a harder time with them than I do going against plat players.
So what can I do to practice getting my APM higher, and what am I supposed to be doing when I have no minerals and just waiting on probes to mine?
I would focus less on raw APM and more on the impact of your actions. Like you mention you don't even micro your army because you think you'll fall behind on your macro, but the impact of using your actions to micro your army during an engagement, particularly in large engagements, is always going to be more impactful relative to macro (remember macro is essentially to build an army, so if you lose your entire army due to no micro then what was the point of your macro?).
Most people tell newer players to focus on macro since most players tend to focus on micro more since it is more interesting (e.g. it's where the action is). It seems you have the opposite problem. You can't even utilize all your actions on macro even if you tried as there's always downtime while waiting for production or buildings to complete, so it's helpful to think of a "macro cycle" in your head, for example:
-Check production/upgrades
-Check Supply
-Base Management (i.e. tech, probe saturation, simcity, etc.)
-Micro (harass, attack etc.)
-Repeat
This gives you a mental framework of when you have downtime in your macro to micro (like to harass with an Oracle for example). Also micro and macro are not mutually exclusive, you should have your production hotkeyed so that you can queue up production/upgrades w/o having to move the screen, allowing your to weave this in while at the same time microing. This is particularly important for keeping constant worker production.
|
On March 20 2016 15:26 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, I apparently really need to get my APM up. I fluxuate between 65-75 depending on how much is going on. I just can't find more things to click, especially earlier in the game when I have nothing to do waiting on more minerals. It's not bad when facing off against a gold/plat player, however lately I've somehow been getting matched up against bronze and silver players that just crush me across the board, APM between 150-300, and just crush me. I have a harder time with them than I do going against plat players.
So what can I do to practice getting my APM higher, and what am I supposed to be doing when I have no minerals and just waiting on probes to mine?
Spam. Seems useless but when the action actually heats up a bit you need to be in that quick flow and able to perform multiple things at the same time. I thought it was useless too, it isn't for most people. As for me I can't play without spamming with let's say 80 APM and rise to the 150-200 needed in the multitask heavy phases of the games, so I spam to always hover around 200.
And honestly with the mineral changes the probe scout comes really fast, and it's an excellent way to get used to multitasking and spamming (have the Nexus on some hotkey, the scouting probe on the other, and switch between them quickly while producing probes and getting your build right).
|
On March 21 2016 02:10 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 15:26 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, I apparently really need to get my APM up. I fluxuate between 65-75 depending on how much is going on. I just can't find more things to click, especially earlier in the game when I have nothing to do waiting on more minerals. It's not bad when facing off against a gold/plat player, however lately I've somehow been getting matched up against bronze and silver players that just crush me across the board, APM between 150-300, and just crush me. I have a harder time with them than I do going against plat players.
So what can I do to practice getting my APM higher, and what am I supposed to be doing when I have no minerals and just waiting on probes to mine? I would focus less on raw APM and more on the impact of your actions. Like you mention you don't even micro your army because you think you'll fall behind on your macro, but the impact of using your actions to micro your army during an engagement, particularly in large engagements, is always going to be more impactful relative to macro (remember macro is essentially to build an army, so if you lose your entire army due to no micro then what was the point of your macro?). Most people tell newer players to focus on macro since most players tend to focus on micro more since it is more interesting (e.g. it's where the action is). It seems you have the opposite problem. You can't even utilize all your actions on macro even if you tried as there's always downtime while waiting for production or buildings to complete, so it's helpful to think of a "macro cycle" in your head, for example: -Check production/upgrades -Check Supply -Base Management (i.e. tech, probe saturation, simcity, etc.) -Micro (harass, attack etc.) -Repeat This gives you a mental framework of when you have downtime in your macro to micro (like to harass with an Oracle for example). Also micro and macro are not mutually exclusive, you should have your production hotkeyed so that you can queue up production/upgrades w/o having to move the screen, allowing your to weave this in while at the same time microing. This is particularly important for keeping constant worker production.
Thank you, this was actually a big help. I find myself with a lot of downtime only focusing on macro because I run out of resources and I'm just sitting on waiting for enough to make more. Micro I just can't seem to do though. I mean, the simple stuff like activating guardian shield and prismatic alignment is easy, but I can't figure out what else to do. I can't seem to get the engagement pro's do. Where it's like 3-5 units against an equal number of enemy units. It's either I send out 3-5 units and he has a massive army, or we build up and engage. Neither of which I can seem to get micro to matter much. I've been working on building up my army and once I like my composition, moving out, then pulling out before the battle turns south. I've been working on this mainly because I know not pulling out has ended very badly for me, and I see pro's pull out a lot more than I do.
When there's just massive armies I can't seem to use that blink micro to retreat just wounded stalkers because they die faster than I can click with my mouse. Though I love the forward blink. I can get their army out of position, blink onto tanks or liberators to focus them down. Against terran I can hit with storms and feedbacks, though both are delayed a lot because I keep my HT at the back of my army, and I'm not sure how to speed that up.
So either how to I micro in large engagements, or how to I get those smaller skirmishes? My hands can move faster, I just have nothing to do with them. I feel like Ricky Bobby.
Though while I'm on it, and you brought up probe saturation, how do I get better map vision? I'm always worried about the timing of taking my third. I don't want to wait for my opponent to take his third to start because then I'll be behind. I try to take a third if my early harass gets some decent damage in, but if it doesn't, I can't seem to hold map vision well enough to know when I can expand. I end up with both my bases super saturated. I want to be able to keep vision near my opponents ramp to see him move out, but also in the void around my base to see drops and harass coming. I open stargate most games because I just feel safer doing that, be it to stop drops, or as a show of force to hopefully prevent muta switch.
Keep in mind my questions are aimed toward Zerg and Terran. My PvP is my best match up, though PvZ is pretty close with the exception of one army comp I can't seem to beat.
|
Hard to help with your micro w/o seeing replays, but positioning is probably one of the most impactful things in large engagements (i.e. having your units in a concave). LotV does reward multi-pronged attacks/harassment much more than previous expansions, although that is probably jumping the gun a bit at your level.
As for map awareness it's all about the mini-map. You sort of have to train yourself to keep your eye on the minimap as much as possible, and the focus that allows you to do this only comes from enough practice that your other actions are so ingrained in your brain that it is automatic/effortless. To use a basketball analogy, it's similar to keeping your head up and constantly scanning the court for opportunities instead of having your head down and concentrating on your dribbling.
|
Russian Federation5 Posts
On March 12 2016 08:19 mGGrinehart wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2016 04:04 sdpg_spad wrote:
Hello everybody,
why is the most common "middle-ground" build order in PvT and PvP 'Gate-Gas-19 Nexus-Cybercore' instead of 'Gate-17 Nexus-Gas-Cybercore'? The obvious negative impact of getting gas first is that you delay your expansion quite a bit. Could someone point out the positive part of the tradeoff to me?
With gate gas nexus you rally probes into the gas after 16 on minerals, and this lets you get mcore/adept/wg immediately when the core finishes. If you wanted to do the same with gate nexus, you would need double gas, and that delays your cybercore. Also if you need for some reason to not take the expansion, you have gas available to spend when you need it( proxy 3-4 gate, proxy rax etc.) You would be surprised tho, 75 minerals doesn't delay the nexus that much.
I've actually spent a few hours playing around with these two build orders and trying to carry them out as cleanly as I could.
Unsurprisingly, the two major differences between them turned out to be the amount of gas you'll have by the time your Cybercore finishes, and the Nexus timing. With Gate-Nexus-Gas, you can place it on 1:08, while with Gate-Gas-Nexus, even at 18 supply, I couldn't get it down earlier than 1:18. On the other hand, with Gate-Gas-Nexus you'll have around ~100 extra gas which you can use towards a faster Stargate, Twilight, Mcore etc.
What I did not expect was that most other major timings turned to be different by about +/- 7 seconds or less: cybercore - 1:23/1:30, 1st combat unit (stalker) - 2:02/2:07, warpgate tech - 2:10/2:08, scout at enemy ramp - 1:56/1:50. So... I hope someone finds a use for this, since I don't think it makes any real difference at my level)
Okay, on a related topic: suppose in PvP you were going for a fast Nexus, but your opponent blocks your expo with a pylon. How do I respond to that? Reactively going 2nd Gate -> Cybercore and trying to pressure him does not seem like a terrifically good option, especially on maps with backyard expansions like Dusk Towers. In HotS PvT a similar problem was solved by starting production of a zealot, then cancelling it if there was no ebay block. However in LotV, you generally want to put your Nexus down before your Gateway even finishes.
|
On March 21 2016 10:20 sdpg_spad wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 12 2016 08:19 mGGrinehart wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2016 04:04 sdpg_spad wrote:
Hello everybody,
why is the most common "middle-ground" build order in PvT and PvP 'Gate-Gas-19 Nexus-Cybercore' instead of 'Gate-17 Nexus-Gas-Cybercore'? The obvious negative impact of getting gas first is that you delay your expansion quite a bit. Could someone point out the positive part of the tradeoff to me?
With gate gas nexus you rally probes into the gas after 16 on minerals, and this lets you get mcore/adept/wg immediately when the core finishes. If you wanted to do the same with gate nexus, you would need double gas, and that delays your cybercore. Also if you need for some reason to not take the expansion, you have gas available to spend when you need it( proxy 3-4 gate, proxy rax etc.) You would be surprised tho, 75 minerals doesn't delay the nexus that much. I've actually spent a few hours playing around with these two build orders and trying to carry them out as cleanly as I could. Unsurprisingly, the two major differences between them turned out to be the amount of gas you'll have by the time your Cybercore finishes, and the Nexus timing. With Gate-Nexus-Gas, you can place it on 1:08, while with Gate-Gas-Nexus, even at 18 supply, I couldn't get it down earlier than 1:18. On the other hand, with Gate-Gas-Nexus you'll have around ~100 extra gas which you can use towards a faster Stargate, Twilight, Mcore etc. What I did not expect was that most other major timings turned to be different by about +/- 7 seconds or less: cybercore - 1:23/1:30, 1st combat unit (stalker) - 2:02/2:07, warpgate tech - 2:10/2:08, scout at enemy ramp - 1:56/1:50. So... I hope someone finds a use for this, since I don't think it makes any real difference at my level) Okay, on a related topic: suppose in PvP you were going for a fast Nexus, but your opponent blocks your expo with a pylon. How do I respond to that? Reactively going 2nd Gate -> Cybercore and trying to pressure him does not seem like a terrifically good option, especially on maps with backyard expansions like Dusk Towers. In HotS PvT a similar problem was solved by starting production of a zealot, then cancelling it if there was no ebay block. However in LotV, you generally want to put your Nexus down before your Gateway even finishes.
Not an expert on LotV PvP but traditionally (at least from high diamond), playing from a slower nexus hasn't been that detrimental to your chances of winning, as long as you just constantly produce probes. Immortals + one sentry (or more) has kinda given some anchor to scout, respond, hold off aggression, and let you progress to the mid-lategame if that is what you intend.
You don't have to do something drastic like going for 2-gate aggression. You could, but you're not forced to by any measure. I would say you are looking at two primary challenges, the first one is determining whether your opponent went for his own nexus. If you face a dedicated 1-base all-in it could kill you outright if you overprobe and delay infrastructure. Second challenge is to defend against stargate aggression. There's also DT's but if you do a defensive posture with robo, DT's should be covered.
Thanks for the provided timings on the nexus BO!
|
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548039
Ok, so I scouted his reaper expand and prepared for it, tried to harass, got my third before he did, built up an army equally sized to his, and my army lost so bad I might as well had not built one to begin with.
I tried to scout but between his turrets and cyclones I couldn't get in, and didn't want to throw away anymore units trying.
My first two games went well today, beat a plat terran, beat a silver terran because I scouted is 3 gate on ulrena, so I went adept/sentry, then after destroying his push, I scouted him just then dropping a second, so I pushed and won. Then I get to this game and I might as well not have bothered building an army at all. If I face his attack I clearly lose my entire army without a fight. If I pull back he wins by just constantly pushing his siege line forward.
|
On March 22 2016 02:53 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548039Ok, so I scouted his reaper expand and prepared for it, tried to harass, got my third before he did, built up an army equally sized to his, and my army lost so bad I might as well had not built one to begin with. I tried to scout but between his turrets and cyclones I couldn't get in, and didn't want to throw away anymore units trying. My first two games went well today, beat a plat terran, beat a silver terran because I scouted is 3 gate on ulrena, so I went adept/sentry, then after destroying his push, I scouted him just then dropping a second, so I pushed and won. Then I get to this game and I might as well not have bothered building an army at all. If I face his attack I clearly lose my entire army without a fight. If I pull back he wins by just constantly pushing his siege line forward.
So i watched the game and i will just write down some things:
- At the start you build one probe too much, it's 19 Nexus and than probe cut and put down cybercore. Also you have to fill the gas more quickly top instantly build MSC + 1 Adept + Warpgate when Core finishes (against Reaper Opening). I like to chronoboost my MSC but Gateway is fine aswell i guess.
- Don't Pylon scout, Gateway scout!
- If you have the chance, let your probe stay near his ramp to see whether he builds a reactor or tech lab. Also in this case you could see a quick factory. You could maybe even see that he starts stim. So much free information!
- You start a 2nd gateway for no reason.
- You build way too many pylons for no reason.
- I don't know why you move your probes from your main to your natural.
- Stargate is fine but it's easier to open Robo as a beginner.
- You're not constantly making probes.
- You build an oracle and the only information you get is that he has a cyclone at his natural. You don't see saturation really, but you see he took the gases. You don't get any info on his production buildings or tech. With your build an oracle will never do damage (MSC b4 Stargate, no proxy) so the purpose of the oracle is to gain information.
- You keep on building oracles and letting them stay at your base.
- You have no info at all so why are you not splitting your stalkers at your bases?
- No clue what you did against the liberator, should be gg by then already.
- Your build really doesn't have a sense. You get a forge, a twilight, no robo. Blink is too late for any timing, too late have use defending. Forge/ +1 Defense Upgrade doesn't fulfill anything at this point in the game. Templar Archives wayyyyy to early.
- 10 HTs (way too much) 4-6 is a good number. All stand in a clump. Split them on your bases.
- Until the very end you didn't see his army or tech once.
- You make like 40 stalkers which is completely dogshit. 1 Immortal is all tankiness you have. You didn't see that he has ghosts at all.
- Well no comment to the "fight" at the end. Even if you had mapvision anywhere at all you would've been completely crushed.
- That is not any army you have. But how to know what units to build when i don't scout once the entire game.
- No reason to be mad and stay in the game for 2 more minutes. There's literally something you can improve on every 2 seconds of the game and still you felt like this was imbalanced or unfair or what?
|
On March 22 2016 02:53 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548039Ok, so I scouted his reaper expand and prepared for it, tried to harass, got my third before he did, built up an army equally sized to his, and my army lost so bad I might as well had not built one to begin with. I tried to scout but between his turrets and cyclones I couldn't get in, and didn't want to throw away anymore units trying. My first two games went well today, beat a plat terran, beat a silver terran because I scouted is 3 gate on ulrena, so I went adept/sentry, then after destroying his push, I scouted him just then dropping a second, so I pushed and won. Then I get to this game and I might as well not have bothered building an army at all. If I face his attack I clearly lose my entire army without a fight. If I pull back he wins by just constantly pushing his siege line forward.
Just some rough comments by taking a quick look at the replay.
First of all, his economy was not by any means behind yours, if anything it was ahead. Having a quicker third nexus does not equate economic advantage unless you saturate the base quickly.
Secondly, your composition was very inferior. Stalkers are expensive units, but does not fight well straight up, especially not against siege tanks. If you read my earlier post at all, I indicated that Stalkers could deal with 3-5 liberators in a timing attack, however, if aiming for the late-game, you would have to build tempest or carriers. Stalkers are as you surely have noticed, not very good at the straight up fight, better suited to skirmishes and killing drops. As many other posters wrote, against a bio composition you want primarily adepts and a few sentries. Since this guy added in quite a few siege tanks, your composition would have been much stronger with additional immortals and archons, rather than only stalkers and high templars.
I'd recommend this article by Artosis on Zest, specifically about PvT. It will give you some conceptual idea about how to approach the match-up when it comes to the overall flow of match-up.
My personal focus areas for you in your gameplay would be:
1) Base Saturation. Your build and timings seem alright for Gold level, but you really need to push your probe count and chase that perfect saturation across your bases. Try and have less time where you cut probes. Probes and Pylons are the bread and butter of any good protoss.
2) Composition. Against a large number of liberators, you need an air army. You need to have less stalkers as you progress into the lategame. Templars should be spread out more.
Against Bio: Sentry and Adept, eventually Storm
Against Siege Tanks: Have a lot of shit. Immortals, Chargelot and Archons good. Stalkers worse.
Against Liberators: Tempest. Maybe Carrier if you are rich and have a lot of time being safe.
Mix as you deem appropriate when your opponent has a mixed army.
|
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Your average unspent money is equal to 70 seconds of average income. If you're having that much trouble spending, just overbuild production after getting solidly onto 2-3 base. If you have trouble before then, fix it and enjoy the free ladder points
12 tanks, 5 libs, 11 ghosts - that's not a composition that you want a mainly stalker army against, IMO. I'm not great against those comps but would use phoenix's to control liberators or tempest if the game started to get closer to 200 supply instead of ~100ish and there were too many libs+tanks to deal with. Zeal/immortal and similar stuff is often more effective than Stalkers against terran on the ground. As a ground rule just don't build stalkers unless you specifically need them for something.
edit: Actually forgot to refresh page and missed both previous replies. They're more in-depth
|
On March 22 2016 04:04 emkaysc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 02:53 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548039Ok, so I scouted his reaper expand and prepared for it, tried to harass, got my third before he did, built up an army equally sized to his, and my army lost so bad I might as well had not built one to begin with. I tried to scout but between his turrets and cyclones I couldn't get in, and didn't want to throw away anymore units trying. My first two games went well today, beat a plat terran, beat a silver terran because I scouted is 3 gate on ulrena, so I went adept/sentry, then after destroying his push, I scouted him just then dropping a second, so I pushed and won. Then I get to this game and I might as well not have bothered building an army at all. If I face his attack I clearly lose my entire army without a fight. If I pull back he wins by just constantly pushing his siege line forward. So i watched the game and i will just write down some things: - At the start you build one probe too much, it's 19 Nexus and than probe cut and put down cybercore. Also you have to fill the gas more quickly top instantly build MSC + 1 Adept + Warpgate when Core finishes (against Reaper Opening). I like to chronoboost my MSC but Gateway is fine aswell i guess. - Don't Pylon scout, Gateway scout! - If you have the chance, let your probe stay near his ramp to see whether he builds a reactor or tech lab. Also in this case you could see a quick factory. You could maybe even see that he starts stim. So much free information! - You start a 2nd gateway for no reason. - You build way too many pylons for no reason. - I don't know why you move your probes from your main to your natural. - Stargate is fine but it's easier to open Robo as a beginner. - You're not constantly making probes. - You build an oracle and the only information you get is that he has a cyclone at his natural. You don't see saturation really, but you see he took the gases. You don't get any info on his production buildings or tech. With your build an oracle will never do damage (MSC b4 Stargate, no proxy) so the purpose of the oracle is to gain information. - You keep on building oracles and letting them stay at your base. - You have no info at all so why are you not splitting your stalkers at your bases? - No clue what you did against the liberator, should be gg by then already. - Your build really doesn't have a sense. You get a forge, a twilight, no robo. Blink is too late for any timing, too late have use defending. Forge/ +1 Defense Upgrade doesn't fulfill anything at this point in the game. Templar Archives wayyyyy to early. - 10 HTs (way too much) 4-6 is a good number. All stand in a clump. Split them on your bases. - Until the very end you didn't see his army or tech once. - You make like 40 stalkers which is completely dogshit. 1 Immortal is all tankiness you have. You didn't see that he has ghosts at all. - Well no comment to the "fight" at the end. Even if you had mapvision anywhere at all you would've been completely crushed. - That is not any army you have. But how to know what units to build when i don't scout once the entire game. - No reason to be mad and stay in the game for 2 more minutes. There's literally something you can improve on every 2 seconds of the game and still you felt like this was imbalanced or unfair or what?
I pylon scouted because he didn't respond to my glhf, which in my experience means I'm usually getting cheesed. I'd rather know about that sooner rather than wait until it's too late.I started a second gateway because I figured it was considerable better than leaving resources sitting there not being used at all. I build extra gateways because I want to be prepared for PO rather than him just move to the position where I don't have a pylon and auto-lose the game. I transfer probes because that's what I've seen a lot of pro protoss players do, and it makes sense. I open stargate because it's the only thing that's been able to not have me straight out lose to terran earlier in the game. I build extra ocacles because it does well against marines, and is a lot faster to get out than colossus. I haven't figure out how to get colossus at the same time terran can start making marines, so I go with what works faster for me. As far as the oracle scout, I know I could have flown in anyway with his cyclone there to try to scout, but I was just about 100% sure he would have killed my oracle before I would have gotten any information.
As far as probe production, you said both to make probes constantly, and to cut probe production at 19. I'm not sure which of these I'm suppose to do. Earlier in the game I make them non-stop, later in the game I try to focus on having an army so I don't lose the game because probes seem to be really bad against more terran units. I don't split my units between my bases because if he attacks at the front, I'll lose the game, and most large attacks I've run into come from the front. Which is also why I keep my HT there. I would spread them around my base, but then I still lose when he pushes in because I have pretty much no storm near his massive army if I do that, and again, will just lose.
As far as scouting, how do you scout if he has an army to crush moving units in, turrets, and cyclones to prevent flying units from coming in? I haven't seen any pro's be able to make there observer immune to turrets, or get their oracle past a cyclone, so I'm not sure what scouts past that. So don't get +1 defense when from everything I've heard is what you want against bio, don't build AOE so I'm pretty much going to lose against bio if he ever attacks, don't build any gateway units because they suck, but also don't tech up too fast, because while you only want mass T3 units, you don't want them before your opponent could attack you... It really seems like I'm not supposed to do anything until the 20 min mark, then start building units.
As far as not scouting, I still need to know the secret of making my units invincible so I can get past turrets and cyclones without throwing away units for nothing. So from this, I now know that I need to fly my ocacle into cyclones because that will work, throw unit after unit into his defenses in hopes that somehow he stops firing and lets me through to scout, or maybe I should just be using scan more often... And don't build anything prior to T3, however don't tech up to T3 too soon, just build probes and a single gateway and twiddle my thumbs for 20 minutes...
|
On March 22 2016 04:13 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 02:53 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548039Ok, so I scouted his reaper expand and prepared for it, tried to harass, got my third before he did, built up an army equally sized to his, and my army lost so bad I might as well had not built one to begin with. I tried to scout but between his turrets and cyclones I couldn't get in, and didn't want to throw away anymore units trying. My first two games went well today, beat a plat terran, beat a silver terran because I scouted is 3 gate on ulrena, so I went adept/sentry, then after destroying his push, I scouted him just then dropping a second, so I pushed and won. Then I get to this game and I might as well not have bothered building an army at all. If I face his attack I clearly lose my entire army without a fight. If I pull back he wins by just constantly pushing his siege line forward. Just some rough comments by taking a quick look at the replay. First of all, his economy was not by any means behind yours, if anything it was ahead. Having a quicker third nexus does not equate economic advantage unless you saturate the base quickly. Secondly, your composition was very inferior. Stalkers are expensive units, but does not fight well straight up, especially not against siege tanks. If you read my earlier post at all, I indicated that Stalkers could deal with 3-5 liberators in a timing attack, however, if aiming for the late-game, you would have to build tempest or carriers. Stalkers are as you surely have noticed, not very good at the straight up fight, better suited to skirmishes and killing drops. As many other posters wrote, against a bio composition you want primarily adepts and a few sentries. Since this guy added in quite a few siege tanks, your composition would have been much stronger with additional immortals and archons, rather than only stalkers and high templars. I'd recommend this article by Artosis on Zest, specifically about PvT. It will give you some conceptual idea about how to approach the match-up when it comes to the overall flow of match-up. My personal focus areas for you in your gameplay would be: 1) Base Saturation. Your build and timings seem alright for Gold level, but you really need to push your probe count and chase that perfect saturation across your bases. Try and have less time where you cut probes. Probes and Pylons are the bread and butter of any good protoss. 2) Composition. Against a large number of liberators, you need an air army. You need to have less stalkers as you progress into the lategame. Templars should be spread out more. Against Bio: Sentry and Adept, eventually Storm Against Siege Tanks: Have a lot of shit. Immortals, Chargelot and Archons good. Stalkers worse. Against Liberators: Tempest. Maybe Carrier if you are rich and have a lot of time being safe. Mix as you deem appropriate when your opponent has a mixed army.
So I shouldn't bother building a third base then if it doesn't actually help the economy at all? Every replay I see they discuss third base timing, if it doesn't matter at all, why does anyone even talk about it, or for that matter do something that's utterly pointless?
So if stalkers aren't what I want, what units should I be building? If I built anything other than stalkers, I would have completely lost to liberators. Should I just not be building gateways at all? Stalkers might suck, but I they've worked out better for me than marines or adapts when taking on liberators, or MMM. If stalkers are as worthless as the rest of them, are all gateway units just a gigantic waste of time then? I've tried going Archon, but they seem to all die before they can even get in range to attack in the first place, so I've stopped doing that.
If I need to build a different army based on what he's going, how do I scout if he build defenses to stop me from scouting? I don't think throwing units away in piles is going to help me win the game at all. So how do I scout when he turtles, spread all my units across all my bases, but still have enough at the front to hold against his entire army, and build nothing but mass tempest/immortal and get that out faster than he can start building marines.
I feel like if I was as absolutely flawless as it seems required just to take down a gold level terran, that I'd be in masters already. I can kill plat zerg and protoss like it's nothing, but to beat any terran I need to play absolutely flawlessly and do things that at this point don't even seem possible in game.
|
Thanks for the help, but I don't think I'll make the mistake of asking for help again.
|
On March 22 2016 05:16 Hyper1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 22 2016 04:13 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 02:53 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548039Ok, so I scouted his reaper expand and prepared for it, tried to harass, got my third before he did, built up an army equally sized to his, and my army lost so bad I might as well had not built one to begin with. I tried to scout but between his turrets and cyclones I couldn't get in, and didn't want to throw away anymore units trying. My first two games went well today, beat a plat terran, beat a silver terran because I scouted is 3 gate on ulrena, so I went adept/sentry, then after destroying his push, I scouted him just then dropping a second, so I pushed and won. Then I get to this game and I might as well not have bothered building an army at all. If I face his attack I clearly lose my entire army without a fight. If I pull back he wins by just constantly pushing his siege line forward. Just some rough comments by taking a quick look at the replay. First of all, his economy was not by any means behind yours, if anything it was ahead. Having a quicker third nexus does not equate economic advantage unless you saturate the base quickly. Secondly, your composition was very inferior. Stalkers are expensive units, but does not fight well straight up, especially not against siege tanks. If you read my earlier post at all, I indicated that Stalkers could deal with 3-5 liberators in a timing attack, however, if aiming for the late-game, you would have to build tempest or carriers. Stalkers are as you surely have noticed, not very good at the straight up fight, better suited to skirmishes and killing drops. As many other posters wrote, against a bio composition you want primarily adepts and a few sentries. Since this guy added in quite a few siege tanks, your composition would have been much stronger with additional immortals and archons, rather than only stalkers and high templars. I'd recommend this article by Artosis on Zest, specifically about PvT. It will give you some conceptual idea about how to approach the match-up when it comes to the overall flow of match-up. My personal focus areas for you in your gameplay would be: 1) Base Saturation. Your build and timings seem alright for Gold level, but you really need to push your probe count and chase that perfect saturation across your bases. Try and have less time where you cut probes. Probes and Pylons are the bread and butter of any good protoss. 2) Composition. Against a large number of liberators, you need an air army. You need to have less stalkers as you progress into the lategame. Templars should be spread out more. Against Bio: Sentry and Adept, eventually Storm Against Siege Tanks: Have a lot of shit. Immortals, Chargelot and Archons good. Stalkers worse. Against Liberators: Tempest. Maybe Carrier if you are rich and have a lot of time being safe. Mix as you deem appropriate when your opponent has a mixed army. So I shouldn't bother building a third base then if it doesn't actually help the economy at all? Every replay I see they discuss third base timing, if it doesn't matter at all, why does anyone even talk about it, or for that matter do something that's utterly pointless? So if stalkers aren't what I want, what units should I be building? If I built anything other than stalkers, I would have completely lost to liberators. Should I just not be building gateways at all? Stalkers might suck, but I they've worked out better for me than marines or adapts when taking on liberators, or MMM. If stalkers are as worthless as the rest of them, are all gateway units just a gigantic waste of time then? I've tried going Archon, but they seem to all die before they can even get in range to attack in the first place, so I've stopped doing that. If I need to build a different army based on what he's going, how do I scout if he build defenses to stop me from scouting? I don't think throwing units away in piles is going to help me win the game at all. So how do I scout when he turtles, spread all my units across all my bases, but still have enough at the front to hold against his entire army, and build nothing but mass tempest/immortal and get that out faster than he can start building marines. I feel like if I was as absolutely flawless as it seems required just to take down a gold level terran, that I'd be in masters already. I can kill plat zerg and protoss like it's nothing, but to beat any terran I need to play absolutely flawlessly and do things that at this point don't even seem possible in game.
I feel like you have missed the entire point of my post, which means I wrote too much or too confusingly. I'll re-iterate parts and bold for emphasis.
1) Base Saturation. Your build and timings seem alright for Gold level, but you really need to push your probe count and chase that perfect saturation across your bases. Try and have less time where you cut probes. Probes and Pylons are the bread and butter of any good protoss. READ: Build more probes and saturate your third base quicker. NOT: Third base is useless.
Third base needs probes to be effective!
2) Composition. Against a large number of liberators, you need an air army. You need to have less stalkers as you progress into the lategame. Templars should be spread out more.
Against Bio: Sentry and Adept, eventually Storm
Against Siege Tanks: Have a lot of shit. Immortals, Chargelot and Archons good. Stalkers worse.
Against Liberators: Tempest. Maybe Carrier if you are rich and have a lot of time being safe.
Mix as you deem appropriate when your opponent has a mixed army.
If you solve 1), everything you know about 2) will change.
You throw out a lot of statements about what a unit can or cannot do. But if you have a lot more of the different units, suddenly they will become a lot more effective. Improving your macro will change how a lot of the units interact with each other.
If you need to scout, protoss has many tools. Adepts can use shade to enter their base. Oracles can cast revelation. These would circumvent your problem with mass turrets very cheaply.
|
On March 22 2016 05:05 Hyper1 wrote:
I pylon scouted because he didn't respond to my glhf, which in my experience means I'm usually getting cheesed. I'd rather know about that sooner rather than wait until it's too late.I started a second gateway because I figured it was considerable better than leaving resources sitting there not being used at all. I build extra gateways because I want to be prepared for PO rather than him just move to the position where I don't have a pylon and auto-lose the game. I transfer probes because that's what I've seen a lot of pro protoss players do, and it makes sense. I open stargate because it's the only thing that's been able to not have me straight out lose to terran earlier in the game. I build extra ocacles because it does well against marines, and is a lot faster to get out than colossus. I haven't figure out how to get colossus at the same time terran can start making marines, so I go with what works faster for me. As far as the oracle scout, I know I could have flown in anyway with his cyclone there to try to scout, but I was just about 100% sure he would have killed my oracle before I would have gotten any information.
As far as probe production, you said both to make probes constantly, and to cut probe production at 19. I'm not sure which of these I'm suppose to do. Earlier in the game I make them non-stop, later in the game I try to focus on having an army so I don't lose the game because probes seem to be really bad against more terran units. I don't split my units between my bases because if he attacks at the front, I'll lose the game, and most large attacks I've run into come from the front. Which is also why I keep my HT there. I would spread them around my base, but then I still lose when he pushes in because I have pretty much no storm near his massive army if I do that, and again, will just lose.
As far as scouting, how do you scout if he has an army to crush moving units in, turrets, and cyclones to prevent flying units from coming in? I haven't seen any pro's be able to make there observer immune to turrets, or get their oracle past a cyclone, so I'm not sure what scouts past that. So don't get +1 defense when from everything I've heard is what you want against bio, don't build AOE so I'm pretty much going to lose against bio if he ever attacks, don't build any gateway units because they suck, but also don't tech up too fast, because while you only want mass T3 units, you don't want them before your opponent could attack you... It really seems like I'm not supposed to do anything until the 20 min mark, then start building units.
As far as not scouting, I still need to know the secret of making my units invincible so I can get past turrets and cyclones without throwing away units for nothing. So from this, I now know that I need to fly my ocacle into cyclones because that will work, throw unit after unit into his defenses in hopes that somehow he stops firing and lets me through to scout, or maybe I should just be using scan more often... And don't build anything prior to T3, however don't tech up to T3 too soon, just build probes and a single gateway and twiddle my thumbs for 20 minutes...
Are you even trying to comprehend what im saying? If you don't want to have tips don't ask for it in the first place.
Listen,
you cut probes at 19. You build your nexus at 19 with the 18/19th probe. This probe is then going to build the cybercore and then you keep producing probes again. It's a thing that every protoss does. It's not hard to understand, you want your cybercore as fast as possible to have a adept/msc in-time to defend reaper. Really simple. If you keep making probes you are to late for the reaper killing a probe or two. After that you proceed to constantly make probes until you have like 65 maybe. Unless you scout that he might be allining you, then you cut probe production, simple.
You can scout any cheese with gateway scout on any map! You scout his main see when he built his baracks and if he's taking gas. If there is no baracks and no gas: Proxy Marines, if there is gas proxy reaper. Your reaction is to get cybercore as fast as possible and at a 2nd gateway. Vs proxy marines you build pylons at the ramp and get stalkers. Get MSC out as fast as possible and don't just a move with your stalkers and it's a really simple hold. Vs proxy reaper (i really never played against that) you probably want to have your pylons near to the minerals and i get guess adepts are better.
As far as splitting HTs goes, why doesn't any top Protoss have a problem with that? Right! The have observers in the middle on the map so they can see if the enemy is pushing at the front. And than it's a easy thing to react and move your HTs back into your army.
With the timing on your stargate, you fly into the main base of the terran to see his tech and production. If you really think he has 20 turrets and 10 cyclons at this point in the game, you probably should stop playing it.
"So don't get +1 defense when from everything I've heard is what you want against bio, don't build AOE so I'm pretty much going to lose against bio if he ever attacks, don't build any gateway units because they suck, but also don't tech up too fast, because while you only want mass T3 units, you don't want them before your opponent could attack you... It really seems like I'm not supposed to do anything until the 20 min mark, then start building units"
Okay i make it really easy for you to understand. Why do you build a forge? Right. You wan't upgrades. You most likely want the +1 defense upgrade as the first. It is good vs Bio. So... did you know your enemy was playing Bio? No. Did you know he wasn't allining you? No. Forge is 150 Minerals and +1 Defense is 100 + 100 gas. Do you want a useless building and start a useless upgrade which doesn't finish in time if he allins you? NO!!! You goddamn need to scout to know what's going on. How greedy you can play, how much units u need to build to defend stuff, do i have time to start upgrades? Can i expand? You're just playing blind.
You need to learn 1 thing before you go back to playing: "Why"
Why do i do the stuff i do, why is it good why is it bad, watch replays and ask yourself if this or that was a good investment with the information i had. If you have no informations, you can't play greedy.
I don't really know if you're trolling when it comes to scouting... Like it seems unreal for me that you think your oracle will die 3min into the game by several turrets or cyclones. I think the main problem that has to do with this is not knowing what the enemy can have at the point of the game (and maybe where).
And yea observers are invisible until they are in turret range and can get you a lot of information, but they are better used split on the map and in the space to have information if he moves out with his army or is going to drop. 3-4 Observers is good.
For scouting production/tech send hallucinated phoenixes or your oracle or harass with a warp prison (trust me it doesn't die from 3 turret hits  )
Go ahead and watch some Streams, for example: State, Letwilightcouncil (PtitDrogo, Lilbow, DnS), MaNa, NaNiwa, puCK, MCanning and see how this stuff somehow magically works.
|
On March 22 2016 05:26 Hyper1 wrote:
Thanks for the help, but I don't think I'll make the mistake of asking for help again.
Well, you as a gold player ask for help and any answer you that is supposed to help you, you completly disagree with.
So we have a hard time helping you if you don't accept the facts. I play this game like 2 months and i'm Diamond. Not through magic, that is certain.
|
Maybe I've just been unlucky, but nearly all of the terran I play against wall off, and my adepts get no scouting in then. I've tried using revelation on turtling terran, but I just lose my oracle by the time I've got vision on what I want to hit with it. I guess I could just try massing those units, and try focusing down the wall, or build enough oracles so that at least one survives to cast revelation, but I still don't see how that's an equal trade off with scan for being balanced. Throwing away a large part of my army doesn't seem worth it to get scouting information.
As far as army comp, Sentry/adept has worked well for me, in very small engagements, but if he has any starport unit, I've already lost. If he builds liberators the loss is even faster as I don't even have the ability to hit them at that point. I've tried Chargelot/Immortal/Archon because it works great for me in PvZ, but when I do, my zealots just melt, and my archons are killed shortly after while trying to get in range of the marines. My immortals can usually hold their own well, but even they usually can't stand up to marines. I've never been able to get my immortals 1 to 1 with marine count, so that might work.
As far as liberators, how do I pump them out before he gets a liberator? If I try to just quickly tech up to tempest, then I don't have an army and just lose to bio, but if I don't rush for tempest, I don't see how I can get them faster than he can get liberators. I could get them before BC's, but liberators just seem too fast. Even so, by the time I get tempest, if he's going liberator, my tempest never seem to hit hard enough to kill them before they kill it, and if I build a ground army that can't shoot up, that's again a battle I won't win.
As far as storm, it's worked great for me against MMM when I've got a handful of storms to drop, but if my units are all spread out across my base, a couple of storm and a small part of my army is probably going to die. If my entire army can barely hold at best, I don't see how a small fraction of that is going to win decisively.
|
Please read my post and really try to understand it. Focus on the things i said. "Why" is the most important thing you need to learn.
|
Hyper1, i think you will be forever gold if you keep this attitude, these guys give you good advice and are actually accurate from what we can see from you gameplay, stop making stupid retarted noob excuses like you think you have your game down. People who take critique the way you just did will always be slower in learning cuz you wont accept you do anything wrong thus wont be able to change anything about. Get real man. These were solid advice for you.
You have to scout your front so you know when you to focus your split units at a critical position, if you dont have apm or brain for it and feel bad about that, just dont be like a child about it ffs. As soon as i read "he didnt ggglhf me so i have to pylon scout i knew your were full of excuses already to mask faults in your play. Understand this will only hinder your ability to improve. Open your mind or be stuck in this sorry state of stubborn noobnessity. THEY WERE REALLY, REALLY, REALLY GOOD ADVICE FOR YOU, YOUR SOB. I apologize already to mods but this kid need to fucking learn how to appreciate a helping effort and understand he isnt perfect already. Or why are you a GOLD player making so many retarted unrational excuses. We all know, now wipe them tears cuz we who want to help others, forgive and have understanding for that you are only a stubborn human.
|
On March 22 2016 05:45 emkaysc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 05:26 Hyper1 wrote:
Thanks for the help, but I don't think I'll make the mistake of asking for help again. Well, you as a gold player ask for help and any answer you that is supposed to help you, you completly disagree with. So we have a hard time helping you if you don't accept the facts. I play this game like 2 months and i'm Diamond. Not through magic, that is certain.
I only disagree because while maybe a pro can make observers immune to damage, or can get fly an oracle past a cyclone without it dying, simply telling me to do it doesn't make it possible. Also I'd really prefer idea's that aren't just "Well if you play perfectly and at master level, then you can start beating gold terran." I realize if my APM was 300-400, I never made a mistake, could somehow make my observers immune to damage, and knew everything at a split second, yes I could probably have a chance against a terran at my same level. If that's really what's required, then I won't waste my time and I'll just quite out of every match against terran, and stick with only playing protoss and zerg where it's possible to win at gold without being GM. I can't get to GM skill to beat the gold terran, without figuring out how to beat terran to begin with. If it's just not possible to beat a terran of the same rank, so be it. But saying to build more units, don't build more units, cut probe production, don't cut probe production, build units that can only shoot the ground, and use them to stop liberators, spread your army out, and use a fraction of your army to beat his entire army, aren't exactly helpful at all.
Tell me how to make my oracle able to not die to a cyclones lock on so I can ignore it and keep going. Tell me how to make it so his turrets don't stop my observer. Tell me how to shade my adept through his wall. Tell me how to get HT's/colossus out before he can make marines. Tell me how to mass tempest as soon as I see he made a liberator. Those things would be helpful.
So far I've got not to build any gateway units, be invincible, and my army comp should be immortal/tempest and do if faster than he can pump out marines. But also literally the opposite of that from other people. Don't tech too fast, but don't build anything short of T3, ignore the cyclone and fly my oracle in anyway, despite having tried that many, many times, and on top of getting no info, I also lose my oracle. So yes, maybe pro units might not be damaged by things like that, but as a gold player, I haven't figured out how to make my units not die to those things, and the replays of pro's I watch show them dying trying exactly what's being suggest, so I need to know HOW to do what's being said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
