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On March 22 2016 07:16 halomonian wrote:At any point in time vs Zerg i feel like i'm climbing an impossible mountain. More often than not i'm able to break a base of his and still lose. With so many transitions available for zerg, I'm sitting here thinking what can I do to cover all my bases. Usually I open with stargate and some phoenixes. Their utility is (A) scouting, (B) light harass, since you cant step into a base full of spore colonies once its fortified, and last but not least (C) lifting enemy units to hold timing attacks or to offend with. The idea, in my head at least, is to force hydras, which i can push with an adept timing attack. The next steps are unclear to me due to all the branches the zerg tech tree has. Barring cheese and all ins, I have absolutely no idea what to do. Please send help. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548488http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548491
Light phoenix harass transitions very well into a reasonably quick third (5:00ish). The trend right now is to go double robo (yes, you read it right) after that to pump out immortals. You then get charge and a templar archive once you can afford it. Phoenix chargelot archon immortal is a pretty strong combo until they have brood lords, but at that time you should be ready to transition to air (usually tempests with some storms).
Looks straightforward, but it's really strong, you should give it a try.
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Hyper1> You don't need to suicide units to scout. Protoss has some way to scout other than obs if you don't know what to do with your spare APM: adept shade, phoenix/oracle hallucination, oracle's revelation, prism with speed. You may even indirectly scout your opponent army with an oracle statis. Stacking phoenixes to redistribute shield damage when you force your way in the turrets is nice too. If you're afraid not to be able to scout Terran drops, you may also put proxy pylons on paths you expect medivacs to take..
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On March 22 2016 19:26 PPN wrote:
Hyper1> You don't need to suicide units to scout. Protoss has some way to scout other than obs if you don't know what to do with your spare APM: adept shade, phoenix/oracle hallucination, oracle's revelation, prism with speed. You may even indirectly scout your opponent army with an oracle statis. Stacking phoenixes to redistribute shield damage when you force your way in the turrets is nice too. If you're afraid not to be able to scout Terran drops, you may also put proxy pylons on paths you expect medivacs to take..
Thank you for your advice, but I think I'm going to take a break from SC. After losing to a terran bronze player with APM over 200, a smaller army, and 3 prong dropped me to win, I'm thinking it's time I quit and go play a different game.
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Wow, you really do need to take a break. Step back, delete that pointless ggtracker program, recognise that Terran player totally outplayed you, recognise that macro isn't everything, and play a game where there are no winners or losers.
Seriously though, the past 2 pages were absolutely gold in terms of advice; the personal advice given to your replay alone were so good they could be copy pasted on the opening post or as threads in their own rights, and you just shat all over everyone who tried to help you.
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On March 23 2016 03:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Wow, you really do need to take a break. Step back, delete that pointless ggtracker program, recognise that Terran player totally outplayed you, recognise that macro isn't everything, and play a game where there are no winners or losers.
Seriously though, the past 2 pages were absolutely gold in terms of advice; the personal advice given to your replay alone were so good they could be copy pasted on the opening post or as threads in their own rights, and you just shat all over everyone who tried to help you.
Did you even bother reading before just insulting and talking crap? I simply said that if bronze players can 3 pronged attack me, with APM over 200, I don't think I want to keep playing. It's not fun at that point. Though I guess blindly insulting works to.
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Running into someone who is clearly in the wrong league is no reason to quit. There is no way someone pulling off APM of 200 (with it actually matter and them not just spamming keys) belongs in, or will stay in Bronze.
With the matchmaking system, you are going to lose around 50% of your games. Getting your head in the right place to be able to enjoy yourself even when losing half the time is necessary to have fun.
On an unrelated note:
What the hell am I supposed to do with Chronoboost? I tend to just throw it on for my upgrades because I don't know what the best thing for it is. Are people moving their boosts around a lot, or just throwing it on a robo or stargate and not worrying much about it?
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
It's mildly useful to throw on stuff like new robo's but you won't see play diverging as much because of chrono boost usage any more
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On March 23 2016 04:26 Sharpened wrote:
Running into someone who is clearly in the wrong league is no reason to quit. There is no way someone pulling off APM of 200 (with it actually matter and them not just spamming keys) belongs in, or will stay in Bronze.
With the matchmaking system, you are going to lose around 50% of your games. Getting your head in the right place to be able to enjoy yourself even when losing half the time is necessary to have fun.
On an unrelated note:
What the hell am I supposed to do with Chronoboost? I tend to just throw it on for my upgrades because I don't know what the best thing for it is. Are people moving their boosts around a lot, or just throwing it on a robo or stargate and not worrying much about it?
I'm fine losing, it's part of every game, and makes the game fun. What I don't like is losing to such a massive degree in nearly every match that I might as well have just quit from the start. Zerg and protoss I enjoy, I win some, I lose some, but even if I lose, it's usually pretty close, or at least I can point out what I did wrong. My terran match ups, even with the advice I'm given, it's just that I didn't play 4-5 times better than my opponent. The problem with that is if my general skill gets better, than I advance, and just lose to even better terran.
Though to answer your question, what I've seen from pro replays is they tend to use it on bigger upgrades, like blink/charge/resonating glaives. Then either production or nexus. I try to do that also, but obviously I suck, so it doesn't always happen, lol.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
The problem with that is if my general skill gets better, than I advance, and just lose to even better terran.
That is a problem when you're wildly weak or strong against certain races as the matchmaking system assumes that you're equally good against every race
if your win ratio in a matchup stays at ~66.67% or better (2 wins per loss) or 33.34%/worse (2 losses per win) after more than 20-50 ranked games in that matchup, you might want to seek out dedicated practice
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On March 23 2016 04:47 Hyper1 wrote:
I'm fine losing, it's part of every game, and makes the game fun. What I don't like is losing to such a massive degree in nearly every match that I might as well have just quit from the start. Zerg and protoss I enjoy, I win some, I lose some, but even if I lose, it's usually pretty close, or at least I can point out what I did wrong. My terran match ups, even with the advice I'm given, it's just that I didn't play 4-5 times better than my opponent. The problem with that is if my general skill gets better, than I advance, and just lose to even better terran.
Though to answer your question, what I've seen from pro replays is they tend to use it on bigger upgrades, like blink/charge/resonating glaives. Then either production or nexus. I try to do that also, but obviously I suck, so it doesn't always happen, lol.
You just suck and make up excuses for it. You're such a massive loser wow. I don't even know why ppl tried to help you in the first place. Even by only building adepts i would've easily won against that terran and you act like it's science to play against terran at gold level. The only thing you're good at is denying. Please give me a favor either stop your attitude and try to improve and accept help on the forums or fucking quit the game and leave this thread.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I can see why the game is on a downswing. If this is the way anyone who asks for help is treated, no wonder new players aren't staying with the game. I came here thinking it would be better than the blizz forums. Guess it's not.
EDIT: And I have been accepting help, accepting every terrible piece of worthless advice is guaranteed fail. The people who actually are giving me decent advice though, that's helpful. Maybe try giving good advice rather than complaining that your bad advice isn't accepted well.
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On March 23 2016 05:03 Hyper1 wrote:
So what, they ban you so you make a new account to come and harass people?
I think if we would make a vote who to ban in this thread, you would be on top by a large margin. Like you don't even realize people gave you really good tips (literally tips any pro could give you), didn't even say thanks and you're only denying. Even my friend which i showed the thread yesterday and who just started playing the game laughs about you. You don't deserve any response, because you basically shit on them when they are investing their time trying to help you. You ungrateful fuck.
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Weird. PvT is the one matchup I do well in (granted I'm at the Gold/Silver level) and I can assure you, I am not playing 4-5 times better than anybody. I'm probably not good enough to tell you what you are doing wrong, but if you feel that you need to play drastically better than your opponent to have a chance, you are obviously attacking the matchup the wrong way.
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On March 23 2016 05:12 Sharpened wrote:
Weird. PvT is the one matchup I do well in (granted I'm at the Gold/Silver level) and I can assure you, I am not playing 4-5 times better than anybody. I'm probably not good enough to tell you what you are doing wrong, but if you feel that you need to play drastically better than your opponent to have a chance, you are obviously attacking the matchup the wrong way.
His attitude is downright terrible and the fact he's still not been banned puzzles me.
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On March 23 2016 05:12 Sharpened wrote:
Weird. PvT is the one matchup I do well in (granted I'm at the Gold/Silver level) and I can assure you, I am not playing 4-5 times better than anybody. I'm probably not good enough to tell you what you are doing wrong, but if you feel that you need to play drastically better than your opponent to have a chance, you are obviously attacking the matchup the wrong way.
If you're not winning by just massively outplaying them, I welcome hearing what you do. I get wrecked by multi-ponged dropped, mass liberator harass, and if I try to mass tempest to stop it, my ground army gets crushed by marines. I've gotten some tips on dealing with marine armies that's helped a lot, but then they build liberators and crush me. The big problem I run into now that I can deal better with ground armies, are surviving harass well enough that I don't fall too far behind to recover, I try to spread out, but then he focuses his attack on that one area or bounces around, any my army isn't fast enough to keep up. But if I don't bring my entire army, the units I left there just die. I've tried throwing down static defense, but he just kills it, or plants liberation zone out of it's reach.
Though the games very greatly. If he's not turtling with turrets everywhere, I do a lot better, I've also notice that as long as their APM isn't more than double mine, I do ok also. It's the bronze and silver players with APM breaking 200 that really hurt.
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On March 23 2016 05:24 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 05:12 Sharpened wrote:
Weird. PvT is the one matchup I do well in (granted I'm at the Gold/Silver level) and I can assure you, I am not playing 4-5 times better than anybody. I'm probably not good enough to tell you what you are doing wrong, but if you feel that you need to play drastically better than your opponent to have a chance, you are obviously attacking the matchup the wrong way.
His attitude is downright terrible and the fact he's still not been banned puzzles me.
It's sad that if I don't just keep doing something that's not working because someone on a forum said so, means I have a bad attitude. It's sad that coming on here and asking for help, then getting bad advice turns into massive amounts of harassment and hate. I'm sorry that the advice that was giving of "Simply play faster and make no mistakes ever" wasn't very useful. I get that not every aspect of my game is perfect. Though if the game is perfectly balanced, then making those mistakes should mean PvP and PvZ is fine, but PvT is going to lose every time. If the mechanics prevented winning at my rank, then it wouldn't only effect one match up, it would effect them all. I sometimes miss probes and don't scout perfectly against zerg and protoss, but I don't lose nearly every matchup in those. Instead of try hating and harassing constantly, why not try helping in a way that's actually helpful, like a good handful of the people who have PMed me to help.
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Canada8159 Posts
On March 23 2016 05:34 Hyper1 wrote:
Though the games very greatly. If he's not turtling with turrets everywhere, I do a lot better, I've also notice that as long as their APM isn't more than double mine, I do ok also. It's the bronze and silver players with APM breaking 200 that really hurt.
That sounds more like poor ranking than actual skill level. I doubt that they should be in the lower leagues if they are breaking 200 apm.
Also, you a treading on very thin ice here. People are coming in and giving you solid advice, but you are taking things to absolutes, and your attitude towards the good advice is poor as well.
I haven't seen any pro's be able to make there observer immune to turrets
Come on, this is honestly a ridiculous statement. Yes, observers die to turrets. No, it's not impossible to scout a Terran base with turrets. Oracles have plenty of speed and HP to survive a quick scout around a base, hallucinations only cost energy, phoenix are very durable, etc etc. There are other examples of this, but I digress.
There is a lot of good advice in here, but it seems more like you are choosing to just continue to complain about your woes, rather than want to improve. The game can be extremely frustrating at times, and we are doing our best to help you out. And if our advice doesn't help you? Sorry, we'll try something new, or we just weren't able to help your particular issue. But please keep in mind that we are here to help people, we want people to improve, we want people to get better. That is all.
And for the shitty advice; you'll find that everywhere, and you'll just have to ignore it. It's been dealt with appropriately so far.
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On March 23 2016 04:26 Sharpened wrote:
Running into someone who is clearly in the wrong league is no reason to quit. There is no way someone pulling off APM of 200 (with it actually matter and them not just spamming keys) belongs in, or will stay in Bronze.
With the matchmaking system, you are going to lose around 50% of your games. Getting your head in the right place to be able to enjoy yourself even when losing half the time is necessary to have fun.
On an unrelated note:
What the hell am I supposed to do with Chronoboost? I tend to just throw it on for my upgrades because I don't know what the best thing for it is. Are people moving their boosts around a lot, or just throwing it on a robo or stargate and not worrying much about it?
I tend to move them around a lot. I typically use them just like in HOTS except it's easier since I don't have to constantly renew them.
Early game -> on nexus for probes and mothership core then on cybercore for warpgate, eventually on first tech building (robo, stargate or twilight)
Mid-game -> on forges and any tech building, this is usually when I switch the most depending on priority (templar archive, any twilight upgrade remaining, phoenix range, or warp prism speed)
Late-game -> when all upgrades are done, on any tech building and if any remains I leave them on random gateways
EDIT: I forgot to mention, since the chronoboost became permanent in LOTV and I tend to put all nexuses on same shortcut, I can't really choose which nexus gives which boost. It has become kind of an issue to properly distribute boosts without accidentaly removing them from buildings I may not want to remove them from, so I took the habit to always make sure to redistribute them all in a single pass when I switch them around. I just keep in mind how many nexuses/boosts I am supposed to put.
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@Hyper1
Actually, seeing the discussion I don't think you are reading carefully each advice, althought they are really good. From my point of view (1st place at gold and can't move further:/), PvT in LotV is easiest machup and I have about 65% win ratio at it. And from beginning of SC2 I've losted so many PvT that I've literally hated Terran until now. My nightmare was just mmm combo, which always kill gateway army. Always. So, here are my adivces:
-don't try to be sarcastic when answering to other people's advices. It's only showing your frustration
-Scout! early scout. For me, fenix and hallucinations are great. I can't belive that you are playing with terrans who spams turrets as we spam pylons;) and if they do, they are really bad and they don't have any army (each turret = 100 min). So fly hallucinated units from different angles (not obvious ones, entrance or side as u harass). You will see production for sure. And If you don;t - give us replay as proof you tried.
-Adepts! They are great against marines with help of sentry (another great advice you seem to ignored), few stalkers if it's necesseary. Adepts are key to hold mmm, really.
-Composition! This is important in our race - low level terran/zerg can spam one, two type of units and win. And toss needs to mix units at almost every level. If you make too much of 1 type units, you will loose. So against terran my core unit is adept with few stalkers (stalkers are good for marines, but not hwen they have marauder assist and adepts with upgrade are fairly cheap, so you can mass them), fenix (if opening harass was good), immo (lot) templars with storm (and for gold the storm is killing blow). Later adepts are pushed by zelots with charge.
-Agression! This is hard for beginners and very casual players like I am. We tend to sit at base, fear of attack and max army without scout, then dies. It may sound funny, but don't be afraid to attack first and you will be suprised how little terran has, when you attack him f.e. with 4 adepts from two gateway opeining. Try to be active, not reactive side.
And NOW there is my question.
I'm really strugling with zerg. I watch SC2 a lot (even with my wife;)) and I think I know theory well. But each time zerg crush me and it is my weakest mu (30-40 win ratio). Today I've lost 3 times in row against Z at Ruins of Seras. I simply cannot find way to punish 3 hatches. When I open with 2 gate (if scout is lucky and I find him fast), at the moment when my adepts are coming, he always has bunch of lings (4-6 and doing more) and queen asist. So I kill few drones, but there is no way to snowball it.
And then, when I open with 2 gates and do nothing, I'm behind in eco.
Fenixes? My APM (currently average 113) is too low to good micro, and spore with 1-2 queens are enough for me. And then, there is quick hydras into lurkers, and I always die.
So - how to deal with Zerg? Plz, any advices are welcome, especially good, long and heavily analytics, as you answered ungreatful Hyper1;)
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EPT
