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On March 23 2016 05:37 Hyper1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 05:24 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 23 2016 05:12 Sharpened wrote:
Weird. PvT is the one matchup I do well in (granted I'm at the Gold/Silver level) and I can assure you, I am not playing 4-5 times better than anybody. I'm probably not good enough to tell you what you are doing wrong, but if you feel that you need to play drastically better than your opponent to have a chance, you are obviously attacking the matchup the wrong way.
His attitude is downright terrible and the fact he's still not been banned puzzles me. Though if the game is perfectly balanced, then making those mistakes should mean PvP and PvZ is fine, but PvT is going to lose every time. If the mechanics prevented winning at my rank, then it wouldn't only effect one match up, it would effect them all.
Wrong. Different things matter in different match-ups depending on your style. For instance I was consistently terrible in PvP in HotS (~40% winrate) while doing OK in PvT (~55%) and great in PvZ (~65%). Did that mean PvP was broken or that PvZ was imbalanced in favor of P ? No, but it meant that my weaknesses (bad scouting and overall reluctance to adapt in early game) didn't matter nearly as much in PvZ and PvT than in the mirror match-up.
You come here with the wrong attitude, with a lot of statements that I'd simply call balance whine and warn/ban you for. You have been given tons of solid advice, which I can recap here :
1- focus on your macro, with consistent macro you'll get plat no matter what.
2- use blink + adepts with sentries for guardian shield to hold early pushes, while defending drops with a handful of units and the mothership core. You can get static d too, they help a lot.
3- get double forges for the upgrades and CB them non stop.
4- get some form of AOE to deal with the liberators : either storm or colossi are fine. You need to learn to engage vs libs, it's not easy. Using the shades and blink to get a good position and beat the liberators takes skill but with practice you'll get better at it.
5- if they turtle hard get greedy on the macro, get tempests/carriers + storm and laugh.
Now you should just try to actually do those things in your ladder games for two weeks. Of course if you try to do that two games and then stop because you lost that's not going to work. Do that for two weeks and if that didn't work for you come back here with replays and we'll be glad to help. But right now I think we're all a bit fed up with reading your rantings "huh I tried to do what you say and it was not a miracle". There are no such things as miracles and to get better you need dedication and practice, even when you're gold. Calm down, be patient, everything is gonna be fine.
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On March 22 2016 07:21 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 07:16 halomonian wrote:At any point in time vs Zerg i feel like i'm climbing an impossible mountain. More often than not i'm able to break a base of his and still lose. With so many transitions available for zerg, I'm sitting here thinking what can I do to cover all my bases. Usually I open with stargate and some phoenixes. Their utility is (A) scouting, (B) light harass, since you cant step into a base full of spore colonies once its fortified, and last but not least (C) lifting enemy units to hold timing attacks or to offend with. The idea, in my head at least, is to force hydras, which i can push with an adept timing attack. The next steps are unclear to me due to all the branches the zerg tech tree has. Barring cheese and all ins, I have absolutely no idea what to do. Please send help. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548488http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548491 Light phoenix harass transitions very well into a reasonably quick third (5:00ish). The trend right now is to go double robo (yes, you read it right) after that to pump out immortals. You then get charge and a templar archive once you can afford it. Phoenix chargelot archon immortal is a pretty strong combo until they have brood lords, but at that time you should be ready to transition to air (usually tempests with some storms). Looks straightforward, but it's really strong, you should give it a try.
It also asnwers my problem, so thank you very much
But how to go straight into sg (and expand), when zerg is going for lot of lings from 2 (even 3) bases at `4 min mark? At maps like lerilac and ruins of seras. I have to take second base at apx 19 supply, otherwise I'm dead also. And he makes bunch of lings. Besides that, I'm eager to try your build. What unit build from wg when I have 2 robo? adepts/ zelots in advance?
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So I watched the replay you posted:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548039
And I actually made sure to watch it from your POV, paying attention to where your camera was. Obviously, APM issues and perfect build order aside, one thing that struck me was it was like you were playing by yourself. There was minimal attempt to interact with your opponent.
You sent a probe to scout at the start, cool, I guess. I don't understand leaving the probe doing nothing where he was bound to run into it, but great.
So your next strategic point was oracle harass. Sounds good, thwarted by a cyclone as he expected it. No problem. I liked the stasis ward at the location of his third, obnoxious and telling you when he's taking it. But at that point, the oracle comes home and basically never gets used again. And for some reason, there were 2 more made?
So aside from the initial probe and a single oracle, nothing moves to his side of the map. You hear when he takes his 3rd thanks to the stasis ward. You had to fight off a single liberator in a mineral line but otherwise, your just building up. You've made no attempts to poke at him, and you just sit and build. It's like you are playing simcity. You aren't actively looking for him to come and attack you - you haven't positioned a single unit outside your bases. No stargate units patrolling the likely areas where a drop or liberator would come. Nothing in front to give you any warning.
When you finally do build a single observer, your rally it into his base. It was dead before you ever looked at it. Observers should start positioned outside where you think your opponent is and then manually pushed in - so you can retreat. Or left on likely routes attack so you know when they are coming.
At any rate, no further observer or any attempts to see what your opponent is doing is made. You take your fourth, continue to build, The only thing you know about your opponent is he had a cyclone in his natural early, he built a turret in the front of his third, and he is now confident to build a sensor tower in the middle of the map. He's scanned you throughout the game so he knows where you are and what you've been up to. You've made the bare minimum of effort to figure out what he's up to and given up trying whenever you encountered any resistance.
Sure enough, he shows up fully sieged and pulls you into an engagement that would generously be called a massacre. The rest is academic.
My recommendation is imagine the game as like having a toddler in the house. If everything is silent, you need to panic and figure out what is going on. You had time where you have an army, your opponent isn't pressuring you and all is quiet. Why are you just improving your infrastructure - your army is bored, restless, and itching to do something. Be outside of his base so if he tries to move out you can hit him. Probe the edges of his base. Just because he has a cyclone on one end of his natural doesn't mean you never try and find holes where you can get in. Don't have multiple oracles sit around doing nothing, send them in to try and get something or at least litter the map with stasis wards so you have booby traps and he has to sound the alarms if he's coming to get you. Know whats just in front of you, don't let the fog of war be complete everywhere around you.You even built a Warp Prism which is useless if it never leaves your base.
I'm bad at this game. You are bad at this game. Almost everyone is bad at this game. Put pressure on people and they make mistakes. As Mike Tyson says, "Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth". Try and force him to make a mistake. Don't just sit there and wait for him to bring the fight to you. Yes, it's hard to continuously expand and tech up while using some form of pressure. But fortune favors the bold (or whatever)! It's better to fight and have to run away then it is to sit and wait and wonder what will happen.
That's my thought. I should look at some more replays if I can to see if there's more I could tell you, but like I said, I'm not great and other people can give better advice about army composition or costly build mistakes.
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On March 23 2016 06:31 deymos wrote:
And NOW there is my question.
I'm really strugling with zerg. I watch SC2 a lot (even with my wife;)) and I think I know theory well. But each time zerg crush me and it is my weakest mu (30-40 win ratio). Today I've lost 3 times in row against Z at Ruins of Seras. I simply cannot find way to punish 3 hatches. When I open with 2 gate (if scout is lucky and I find him fast), at the moment when my adepts are coming, he always has bunch of lings (4-6 and doing more) and queen asist. So I kill few drones, but there is no way to snowball it.
And then, when I open with 2 gates and do nothing, I'm behind in eco.
Fenixes? My APM (currently average 113) is too low to good micro, and spore with 1-2 queens are enough for me. And then, there is quick hydras into lurkers, and I always die.
So - how to deal with Zerg? Plz, any advices are welcome, especially good, long and heavily analytics, as you answered ungreatful Hyper1;)
You shouldn't expect to be able to always snowball with adepts. Forcing him to invest early in queens and lings is already good. I don't recommend opening 2 gates in the current meta though : Nexus first is very risky and with adepts before Nexus you'll just end up behind.
113 APM is more than enough to use phoenix to great effect. Get ~5 of them, kill overlords and try to pick gas drones. If he gets 2 spores at every base this is a success for you because he invested a lot. A good tip : try to harass between bases rather than in mineral lines. Especially at lower levels, you'll end up catching a lot of transfering drones or misrallied overlords !
For the macro game, you should plan on getting around 5 phoenix for harass (you can keep on making them if the harass is going really good but you can also stick to 5 every time) and transition to double robo to pump out as many immortals as you can. With proper zealot (get charge and attack upgrades quick) support you can defend most timings, even the nasty hydra lings ones. Don't forget to use overcharge to buy time for more units and to have good pylon placement around your third.
Then it's quite straightforward : if they don't turtle you try to set up for a big chargelot archon immortal timing -you should have a very high immortal count, at least 10, use them to focus down the lurkers/ultras ; bring your phoenix to lift up some lurkers/infestors and be careful to not get your obs sniped, having an oracle to detect the lurkers does wonders-, if they play the turtle game get greedy on macro and get tempests (some people go for carriers for the style points but tempests are better vs vipers) + storms.
On March 23 2016 06:43 deymos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 07:21 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 22 2016 07:16 halomonian wrote:At any point in time vs Zerg i feel like i'm climbing an impossible mountain. More often than not i'm able to break a base of his and still lose. With so many transitions available for zerg, I'm sitting here thinking what can I do to cover all my bases. Usually I open with stargate and some phoenixes. Their utility is (A) scouting, (B) light harass, since you cant step into a base full of spore colonies once its fortified, and last but not least (C) lifting enemy units to hold timing attacks or to offend with. The idea, in my head at least, is to force hydras, which i can push with an adept timing attack. The next steps are unclear to me due to all the branches the zerg tech tree has. Barring cheese and all ins, I have absolutely no idea what to do. Please send help. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548488http://ggtracker.com/matches/6548491 Light phoenix harass transitions very well into a reasonably quick third (5:00ish). The trend right now is to go double robo (yes, you read it right) after that to pump out immortals. You then get charge and a templar archive once you can afford it. Phoenix chargelot archon immortal is a pretty strong combo until they have brood lords, but at that time you should be ready to transition to air (usually tempests with some storms). Looks straightforward, but it's really strong, you should give it a try. It also asnwers my problem, so thank you very much But how to go straight into sg (and expand), when zerg is going for lot of lings from 2 (even 3) bases at `4 min mark? At maps like lerilac and ruins of seras. I have to take second base at apx 19 supply, otherwise I'm dead also. And he makes bunch of lings. Besides that, I'm eager to try your build. What unit build from wg when I have 2 robo? adepts/ zelots in advance?
If they don't take a third / get a lot of lings, you should not get a stargate. Try to have a second peak at their base to see if they're droning or getting an unusual amount of lings. In those scenarios, you just chrono units (adepts) and try to get a wall, even an awkward one (Lerilak and Ruins of Seras are quite tricky, you can wall with pylon + 3 buildings at the ramp or get a wall near the Nexus).
As for the units you should get from the gates : it's very stylistic, but personally I like to get one adept to be safe vs lings and force lings vs 3 hatch before pool, then a stalker to deny scouting of my base, and then a sentry. If needed I warp two more adepts and another sentry to safely take my third. And then yeah you should get zealots for support for your immortals while transitioning rather quickly to archive for archons -you'll bank up some gas.
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On March 23 2016 06:51 [PkF] Wire wrote:
You shouldn't expect to be able to always snowball with adepts. Forcing him to invest early in queens and lings is already good. I don't recommend opening 2 gates in the current meta though : Nexus first is very risky and with adepts before Nexus you'll just end up behind.
First of all - thank you very much. These are advices that I was looking for. After today's 3 looses in row with zerg I'm really frustrated
So - standard opening gateway-> expand is the best way?
For the macro game, you should plan on getting around 5 phoenix for harass (you can keep on making them if the harass is going really good but you can also stick to 5 every time) and transition to double robo to pump out as many immortals as you can. With proper zealot (get charge and attack upgrades quick) support you can defend most timings, even the nasty hydra lings ones. Don't forget to use overcharge to buy time for more units and to have good pylon placement around your third.
I understand. But how to defend at about 4-6 minute mark, when I put my third (and after third I want double robo). How many hhateways I should have when starting my third? I think I don't feel good enough this time in game at lotv:/
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On March 23 2016 06:57 deymos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 06:51 [PkF] Wire wrote:
You shouldn't expect to be able to always snowball with adepts. Forcing him to invest early in queens and lings is already good. I don't recommend opening 2 gates in the current meta though : Nexus first is very risky and with adepts before Nexus you'll just end up behind. First of all - thank you very much. These are advices that I was looking for. After today's 3 looses in row with zerg I'm really frustrated So - standard opening gateway-> expand is the best way? Show nested quote +
For the macro game, you should plan on getting around 5 phoenix for harass (you can keep on making them if the harass is going really good but you can also stick to 5 every time) and transition to double robo to pump out as many immortals as you can. With proper zealot (get charge and attack upgrades quick) support you can defend most timings, even the nasty hydra lings ones. Don't forget to use overcharge to buy time for more units and to have good pylon placement around your third.
I understand. But how to defend at about 4-6 minute mark, when I put my third (and after third I want double robo). How many hhateways I should have when starting my third? I think I don't feel good enough this time in game at lotv:/
You're welcome !
Best and safest way to open vs Z on ladder : 14 pylon (ramp) 15 gate (completing a semi wall -> scout) 16 gas (don't mine it until you have 16 probes on minerals, then rally on minerals) 19 Nexus. If you scout an early pool chrono a zealot. Otherwise get a 19 or 20 cyber core then another gas, then go on.
Most people take their third out of 3 gates (1 from the opening + 2 making a wall). You then add double robo, twilight and 3 gates and should be able to hold most timings. Having 2-3 pylons at your third to help defend with overcharge is crucial. Vs lings you can warp in a round of adepts, vs roaches you can warp in a round of stalkers, you can also get some void rays to help if needed. If they have a lot of roaches when you're taking your third they shouldn't have too much eco, you're fine delaying it a bit.
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On March 23 2016 06:31 deymos wrote:
@Hyper1
Actually, seeing the discussion I don't think you are reading carefully each advice, althought they are really good. From my point of view (1st place at gold and can't move further:/), PvT in LotV is easiest machup and I have about 65% win ratio at it. And from beginning of SC2 I've losted so many PvT that I've literally hate Terran tight now. My nightmare was just mmm combo, which always kill gateway army. Always. So, here are my adivces:
-don't try to be sarcastic when answering to other people's advices. It's only showing your frustration
-Scout! early scout. For me, fenix and hallucinations are great. I can't belive that you are playing with terrans who spams turrets as we spam pylons;) and if they do, they are really bad and they don't have any army (each turret = 100 min). So fly hallucinated units from different angles (not obvious ones, entrance or side as u harass). You will see production for sure. And If you don;t - give us replay as proof you tried.
-Adepts! They are great against marines with help of sentry (another great advice you seem to ignored), few stalkers if it's necesseary. Adepts are key to hold mmm, really.
-Composition! This is important in our race - low level terran/zerg can spam one, two type of units and win. And toss needs to mix units at almost every level. If you make too much of 1 type units, you will loose. So against terran my core unit is adept with few stalkers, fenix (if opening was good), immo (lot) templars with storm (and for gold the storm is killing blow). Later adepts are pushed by zelots with charge.
-Agression! This is hard for beginners and very casual players like I am. We tend to sit at base, fear of attack and max army without scout, then dies. It may sound funny, but don't be afraid to attack first and you will be suprised how little terran has, when you attack him f.e. with 4 adepts from two gateway opeining. Try to be active, not reactive side.
And NOW there is my question.
I'm really strugling with zerg. I watch SC2 a lot (even with my wife;)) and I think I know theory well. But each time zerg crush me and it is my weakest mu (30-40 win ratio). Today I've lost 3 times in row against Z at Ruins of Seras. I simply cannot find way to punish 3 hatches. When I open with 2 gate (if scout is lucky and I find him fast), at the moment when my adepts are coming, he always has bunch of lings (4-6 and doing more) and queen asist. So I kill few drones, but there is no way to snowball it.
And then, when I open with 2 gates and do nothing, I'm behind in eco.
Fenixes? My APM (currently average 113) is too low to good micro, and spore with 1-2 queens are enough for me. And then, there is quick hydras into lurkers, and I always die.
So - how to deal with Zerg? Plz, any advices are welcome, especially good, long and heavily analytics, as you answered ungreatful Hyper1;)
I don't think 2 Gates is a good opening vs Zerg. You are better off staying on 1 Gate and getting your 2nd Nexus earlier. As for the Adept harass, make 2 or 4 of them so that you can one-hit kill Drones, go in the mineral line and shade to prepare your running away, you don't need to suicide them, take a few drones and keep them alive. Sometimes just showing them to Zerg is enough to do the damage because Zerg is forced to commit some larvae in army.
If Phoenixes are too APM intensive for you, go for an Oracle, take as many Drones as you can without losing it (if you are afraid not to have enough APM to properly micro it, shift+click 2-3 drones and your way out, you can always come back later either to take some more Drones or to check whether you successfully forced Zerg to make some Spores). Don't take unnecessary risk, an oracle is incredibly useful later on for stasis or just simply scouting. Remember the Ferrari F1 picture of an oracle? (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1ootxq/oracles_are_fast_now_so_ferrari_oracle/) There is some truth in that . You may go for 2 void rays then to hold off Roach/Ravagers if you see it coming or just 1 to chase overlords around.
You may then go for the usual chargelot/archon/immo composition. While you are doing it, it is important not to be too passive ie. send some adepts around with a prism (again don't take risk, try to keep them alive so that Zerg feels under threat, it does not matter if you take that many drones or not) or just show yourself on Zerg creep to force him to make some army (take your mothership core to recall if you are not confident you can run away). Be mindful to scout with an hallucination or an oracle to not be surprised by a tech switch. What I usually look for:
- lair timing / 3rd base? -> check how many Roach/Ravagers Zerg has, it may hint you at a potential all-in
- spire? -> make some phoenixes + blink or go for an all-in
- hydralisk den? -> pump out immortals and obs (with 2 robo if needed) and somewhere in between a prism to play on the immobility of a lurker-based army
You AoE of choice should be storm, so when you make archons, keep 3-4 HT around. It is probably too hard to control Disruptors so don't bother too much with them. Attack upgrade in general is pretty important, don't forget to queue it.
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On March 23 2016 07:11 PPN wrote:If Phoenixes are too APM intensive for you, go for an Oracle, take as many Drones as you can without losing it (if you are afraid not to have enough APM to properly micro it, shift+click 2-3 drones and your way out, you can always come back later either to take some more Drones or to check whether you successfully forced Zerg to make some Spores). Don't take unnecessary risk, an oracle is incredibly useful later on for stasis or just simply scouting. Remember the Ferrari F1 picture of an oracle? (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1ootxq/oracles_are_fast_now_so_ferrari_oracle/) There is some truth in that . You may go for 2 void rays then to hold off Roach/Ravagers if you see it coming or just 1 to chase overlords around.
Thank you for all advices. But I have one problem with oracle - when I have it (from standard opening gateway->nexus->stargate, zerg always (literally) has 1 spore and queen - is it possible, or am I doing something wrong with BO? In that case, how to kill those 2-3 drones (even)?
You may then go for the usual chargelot/archon/immo composition. While you are doing it, it is important not to be too passive
I think this is my biggest problem. You see, I have fairly good macro (this is something that I can do - constantly making probes;)), but I have very,very poor multitasking - so I don't harass as much as I should, and just build army and fear of the lurkers:/
What I usually look for:
- lair timing / 3rd base? -> check how many Roach/Ravagers Zerg has, it may hint you at a potential all-in
- spire? -> make some phoenixes + blink or go for an all-in
- hydralisk den? -> pump out immortals and obs (with 2 robo if needed) and somewhere in between a prism to play on the immobility of a lurker-based army
You AoE of choice should be storm, so when you make archons, keep 3-4 HT around. It is probably too hard to control Disruptors so don't bother too much with them. Attack upgrade in general is pretty important, don't forget to queue it.
I've always prefered storm,even before colossus nerf (sentiment from BW, I suppose), so it will be fine without disruptors. Those hints for what to look may be very helpful. This weekend will be training without mercy, even if I loose 10 times at row at ruins of seras due to zergs;)
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Ok, so I'm not going to quote anything because honestly I have no idea how to quote multiple different people in the same post.
@Wire, my argument wasn't that terran was imbalanced, but rather that if the problem was purely a general issue of not making enough probes, or something that effects all play, that it would effect all play, not just play that's against terran. I'm already working on trying to fix those things, as well as other problems I know I have like knowing when to attack, and when to pull out after an attack. Those are problems I have in all match ups, so unless playing terran requires you to play even the basics to a much higher level than playing other races requires, then my problem has to be an issue of dealing with terran specifically. I've been trying to switch over to a comp of Adept/Sentries and it's worked well against bio comps, but it's also left me vulnerable to Liberators. When they don't build static defense at the front of their base I can usually get a scout, but I still have trouble finding when liberators more out, so how do prepare for that? Do I need to place my pylons better, or build stalkers at a set time and leave 3-4 in each mineral line? As far as double forge, I used to do that, but I've since been told specifically not to do that. Which is the problems I'm having with a lot of advice is that it either contradicts other advice, or I've switched away from it because it has failed consistently for me.
@Sharpened, I left my probe there because it's advice I was given before. To leave it patrolling in front of the base to scout when the terran moved out. As far as building more oracles, I've struggled with fighting Bio Balls, and they've helped me deal with them better. Though now that I'm trying an adepts/sentry build, I likely won't be trying to mass them now. I don't poke at my opponent because I end up losing my army, then dying to the counter attack if I try pushing out. Or worse, I move out, and get liberators/drops in my base when I do. As far as manually controlling observers, I've been trying to focus on not pooling up my resources back home and staying on top of probe production, so trying to control my units and also macro back home at the same time isn't something I've been able to figure out yet. I know I'll get better at it, but it will just take time. I would have built more observers and sent them, but they would have met the same fate, and I didn't want to sacrifice units.
I didn't keep trying to poke in with my oracle because it had already taken a lot of damage from the lock on, and I know my reaction isn't fast enough to send him in without the marines killing him. All of these same things happen in the other matchups, but none of those end nearly every game in a lose over it. Why is it that missing some probes, and not being able to poke into his base, is completely game ending against terran, but those same problems don't cause a loss for every game against other races?
As far as being more aggressive, I practice against opponents when I can scout them and what they're doing. It's moving into an unknown army, usually up a ramp possibly a small walled off ramp with no high ground vision, that's when I don't attack into it. I have no idea how to attack into a walled off ramp with no vision or information, but I know when I try it pretty much always costs me the game.
My problems with the advice, and what I've been trying to explain, is that most of the replies are simply to fix general mechanics, which I understand I need to work on, and I am. However if it's only against terran that you can't make any mistakes otherwise any terran at any level will auto-win, then that's important to know why that's the match up where mechanics are by far the most important. If mechanics are equally important in every match up, then I need to figure out why terran specifically obliterate me, otherwise I'll get better in all 3 match ups, progress, and still lose in every terran battle because I'm screwing something up about how I play against terran.
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Canada8159 Posts
On March 23 2016 07:32 Hyper1 wrote: However if it's only against terran that you can't make any mistakes otherwise any terran at any level will auto-win, then that's important to know why that's the match up where mechanics are by far the most important.
This is most definitely false. At this point there has been a lot of advice, it seems like the next step is to implement all of the tips into many games, and if you are still struggling, post some more replays.
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On March 23 2016 07:32 Hyper1 wrote:
@Wire, my argument wasn't that terran was imbalanced, but rather that if the problem was purely a general issue of not making enough probes, or something that effects all play, that it would effect all play, not just play that's against terran. I'm already working on trying to fix those things, as well as other problems I know I have like knowing when to attack, and when to pull out after an attack. Those are problems I have in all match ups, so unless playing terran requires you to play even the basics to a much higher level than playing other races requires, then my problem has to be an issue of dealing with terran specifically. I've been trying to switch over to a comp of Adept/Sentries and it's worked well against bio comps, but it's also left me vulnerable to Liberators. When they don't build static defense at the front of their base I can usually get a scout, but I still have trouble finding when liberators more out, so how do prepare for that? Do I need to place my pylons better, or build stalkers at a set time and leave 3-4 in each mineral line? As far as double forge, I used to do that, but I've since been told specifically not to do that. Which is the problems I'm having with a lot of advice is that it either contradicts other advice, or I've switched away from it because it has failed consistently for me.
You said it in your post : you need good pylon coverage of your mineral lines. If they don't have liberator range (and that upgrade is costly and takes time) you can defend your mineral lines with well placed pylons. If they get the position pull probes and blink under the liberator with 3-4 stalkers, it's worth it (good though they are, libs are expensive as well). When they have the upgrade you do need air units (an emergency void ray is good, then you can get tempests -or carriers for style points ).
You should have at least 10 stalkers with blink in your ground army not to be totally torn apart by liberators. The timing at which they get them doesn't matter so much : if they get them very early, they'll have bad upgrades and very few medivacs, so you can abuse that with the mobility of blink stalkers + adepts. If they get them late, you have enough time to get your AOE of choice (storm or colossi, you can go disruptors too but that's not my style).
I don't know who told you not to go double forge but I think it's a big mistake. You actually need good upgrades (armor and attack but blink/glaives/charge -get them in that order- too) to fight on par with the T bio.
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On March 23 2016 07:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 07:32 Hyper1 wrote:
@Wire, my argument wasn't that terran was imbalanced, but rather that if the problem was purely a general issue of not making enough probes, or something that effects all play, that it would effect all play, not just play that's against terran. I'm already working on trying to fix those things, as well as other problems I know I have like knowing when to attack, and when to pull out after an attack. Those are problems I have in all match ups, so unless playing terran requires you to play even the basics to a much higher level than playing other races requires, then my problem has to be an issue of dealing with terran specifically. I've been trying to switch over to a comp of Adept/Sentries and it's worked well against bio comps, but it's also left me vulnerable to Liberators. When they don't build static defense at the front of their base I can usually get a scout, but I still have trouble finding when liberators more out, so how do prepare for that? Do I need to place my pylons better, or build stalkers at a set time and leave 3-4 in each mineral line? As far as double forge, I used to do that, but I've since been told specifically not to do that. Which is the problems I'm having with a lot of advice is that it either contradicts other advice, or I've switched away from it because it has failed consistently for me. You said it in your post : you need good pylon coverage of your mineral lines. If they don't have liberator range (and that upgrade is costly and takes time) you can defend your mineral lines with well placed pylons. If they get the position pull probes and blink under the liberator with 3-4 stalkers, it's worth it (good though they are, libs are expensive as well). When they have the upgrade you do need air units (an emergency void ray is good, then you can get tempests -or carriers for style points ). You should have at least 10 stalkers with blink in your ground army not to be totally torn apart by liberators. The timing at which they get them doesn't matter so much : if they get them very early, they'll have bad upgrades and very few medivacs, so you can abuse that with the mobility of blink stalkers + adepts. If they get them late, you have enough time to get your AOE of choice (storm or colossi, you can go disruptors too but that's not my style). I don't know who told you not to go double forge but I think it's a big mistake. You actually need good upgrades (armor and attack but blink/glaives/charge -get them in that order- too) to fight on par with the T bio.
For timing, I more mean to be safe from liberator harass. I don't want to get them too early and have mostly stalkers to deal with early marine push, but I also don't want to wait until the liberator is eating my probe line either. As far as pylon placement, I try to put a pylon between the mineral lines and gas, but then I'm vulnerable from behind. I've tried building a third pylon, but The advice on here also said not to make too many pylons either. Just to clarify, I'm not complaining, or discarding your input. Just trying to find the best option for pylon placement. When I've got a pylon in range, no number or liberators will cause me a problem. I've had a single pylon take out multiple liberators before, but that's only if they stop by one of my pylons.
As far as blink, should I get that before or after resonating glaives? If I'm not able to get good scouting information, what do I do? Do I go tempest regardless? As stupid as this might sound, WHEN do I start building Tempest? Someone earlier said not to tech up too quickly, but I have literally no idea what's too quick. I know that they mean not to drop fleet beacon as soon as SG finishes but how long am I supposed to wait before teching up more. Against terran do build all 3 tech trees on 2 bases, or save the third for when I drop my third base?
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On March 23 2016 07:21 deymos wrote:
Thank you for all advices. But I have one problem with oracle - when I have it (from standard opening gateway->nexus->stargate, zerg always (literally) has 1 spore and queen - is it possible, or am I doing something wrong with BO? In that case, how to kill those 2-3 drones (even)?
If Zerg already has Spores then you are kind of even already. You may try to target the gas Drones, they are usually further away from the Queen and the Spores, so it is possible to get a least 1 of them without taking damage. You may also catch some Drones transferring between Hatcheries. An Hatchery takes 71 sec to build, so when you see one building you can assume the transfer should happen in 1 minute and get ready to try to catch it.
If you cannot directly harm Drones, you may cheap a bit of Zerg army especially Zerglings. Kill some, show yourself on creep or under an Overlord and back away immediately, Zerg is very likely to feel insecure and commit some larvae to something else than Drones.
On March 23 2016 07:21 deymos wrote:I think this is my biggest problem. You see, I have fairly good macro (this is something that I can do - constantly making probes;)), but I have very,very poor multitasking - so I don't harass as much as I should, and just build army and fear of the lurkers:/
I think Prism + Adepts can make for a very simple and effective harass even when you are not very good at multitasking. Of course it would be far more powerful if you could micro it . To keep it easy:
- take a Prism with 4 adepts behind a mineral line, d+shift+click to drop them all and shift+right click to slightly back your Prism away to keep it safe
(- if possible, try to watch them as the Prism arrives so that you can put the Adepts on hold, it will make it easier to retrieve them, it's still fine I think if you forget this step)
- if Zerg pulls the Drones immediately, you already gained something from the harass, jump back into the Prism and put it somewhere safe, ready for the next time you think about it
- if Zerg does not pull the Drones immediately, leave them be and do your macro until you hear an alert, jump back into the Prism and put it somewhere safe, ready for the next time you think about it
If the game lasts and both of you have expansions everywhere, shift+clicking some zealots/DT's runby should work too, especially if you show your main army somewhere else at the same time. You may prioritize targetting Spores in that case if you've already seen them before targetting Drones or the Hatchery.
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On March 23 2016 08:06 Hyper1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 07:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 23 2016 07:32 Hyper1 wrote:
@Wire, my argument wasn't that terran was imbalanced, but rather that if the problem was purely a general issue of not making enough probes, or something that effects all play, that it would effect all play, not just play that's against terran. I'm already working on trying to fix those things, as well as other problems I know I have like knowing when to attack, and when to pull out after an attack. Those are problems I have in all match ups, so unless playing terran requires you to play even the basics to a much higher level than playing other races requires, then my problem has to be an issue of dealing with terran specifically. I've been trying to switch over to a comp of Adept/Sentries and it's worked well against bio comps, but it's also left me vulnerable to Liberators. When they don't build static defense at the front of their base I can usually get a scout, but I still have trouble finding when liberators more out, so how do prepare for that? Do I need to place my pylons better, or build stalkers at a set time and leave 3-4 in each mineral line? As far as double forge, I used to do that, but I've since been told specifically not to do that. Which is the problems I'm having with a lot of advice is that it either contradicts other advice, or I've switched away from it because it has failed consistently for me. You said it in your post : you need good pylon coverage of your mineral lines. If they don't have liberator range (and that upgrade is costly and takes time) you can defend your mineral lines with well placed pylons. If they get the position pull probes and blink under the liberator with 3-4 stalkers, it's worth it (good though they are, libs are expensive as well). When they have the upgrade you do need air units (an emergency void ray is good, then you can get tempests -or carriers for style points ). You should have at least 10 stalkers with blink in your ground army not to be totally torn apart by liberators. The timing at which they get them doesn't matter so much : if they get them very early, they'll have bad upgrades and very few medivacs, so you can abuse that with the mobility of blink stalkers + adepts. If they get them late, you have enough time to get your AOE of choice (storm or colossi, you can go disruptors too but that's not my style). I don't know who told you not to go double forge but I think it's a big mistake. You actually need good upgrades (armor and attack but blink/glaives/charge -get them in that order- too) to fight on par with the T bio. For timing, I more mean to be safe from liberator harass. I don't want to get them too early and have mostly stalkers to deal with early marine push, but I also don't want to wait until the liberator is eating my probe line either. As far as pylon placement, I try to put a pylon between the mineral lines and gas, but then I'm vulnerable from behind. I've tried building a third pylon, but The advice on here also said not to make too many pylons either. Just to clarify, I'm not complaining, or discarding your input. Just trying to find the best option for pylon placement. When I've got a pylon in range, no number or liberators will cause me a problem. I've had a single pylon take out multiple liberators before, but that's only if they stop by one of my pylons. As far as blink, should I get that before or after resonating glaives? If I'm not able to get good scouting information, what do I do? Do I go tempest regardless? As stupid as this might sound, WHEN do I start building Tempest? Someone earlier said not to tech up too quickly, but I have literally no idea what's too quick. I know that they mean not to drop fleet beacon as soon as SG finishes but how long am I supposed to wait before teching up more. Against terran do build all 3 tech trees on 2 bases, or save the third for when I drop my third base?
For pylons : you should have one pylon behind the mineral lines and another next to gas if they're vulnerable (depends on maps). If you see with your obs they're going to liberator harass your mineral lines it's fine to get a bit more supply than needed, their rushing liberators also imply they have fewer rax so late combat shield or stim, not many marines...
For blink : you absolutely should get that first (and then glaives) if you want to play a defensive macro game. The mobility blink offers is just too good. And you seem to think you don't want to have stalkers to deal with a marine push : actually you want to have ~8 blink stalkers with adept and sentry support to deal with bio pushes. They allow to snipe medivacs and with proper adept support they do OK in bio fights.
If you can't gather good intel, stalkers + adepts + sentry + storm is very flexible. If you see them turtle hard grab a fourth and get tempests. Though honestly, you only REALLY need tempests when they reach liberators range. Otherwise you can do more than fine with storm + colossi + archons + stalkers, though getting tempests is probably easier and less micro / positioning intensive. One thing for sure, NEVER go for tempests on two bases if you're not playing fancy (or on Ulrena). I'd even recommend to be mining from four bases before doing the air + storm transition. Everything the T will throw at you before that can be dealt with with a proper ground army.
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On March 23 2016 08:21 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 08:06 Hyper1 wrote:On March 23 2016 07:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 23 2016 07:32 Hyper1 wrote:
@Wire, my argument wasn't that terran was imbalanced, but rather that if the problem was purely a general issue of not making enough probes, or something that effects all play, that it would effect all play, not just play that's against terran. I'm already working on trying to fix those things, as well as other problems I know I have like knowing when to attack, and when to pull out after an attack. Those are problems I have in all match ups, so unless playing terran requires you to play even the basics to a much higher level than playing other races requires, then my problem has to be an issue of dealing with terran specifically. I've been trying to switch over to a comp of Adept/Sentries and it's worked well against bio comps, but it's also left me vulnerable to Liberators. When they don't build static defense at the front of their base I can usually get a scout, but I still have trouble finding when liberators more out, so how do prepare for that? Do I need to place my pylons better, or build stalkers at a set time and leave 3-4 in each mineral line? As far as double forge, I used to do that, but I've since been told specifically not to do that. Which is the problems I'm having with a lot of advice is that it either contradicts other advice, or I've switched away from it because it has failed consistently for me. You said it in your post : you need good pylon coverage of your mineral lines. If they don't have liberator range (and that upgrade is costly and takes time) you can defend your mineral lines with well placed pylons. If they get the position pull probes and blink under the liberator with 3-4 stalkers, it's worth it (good though they are, libs are expensive as well). When they have the upgrade you do need air units (an emergency void ray is good, then you can get tempests -or carriers for style points ). You should have at least 10 stalkers with blink in your ground army not to be totally torn apart by liberators. The timing at which they get them doesn't matter so much : if they get them very early, they'll have bad upgrades and very few medivacs, so you can abuse that with the mobility of blink stalkers + adepts. If they get them late, you have enough time to get your AOE of choice (storm or colossi, you can go disruptors too but that's not my style). I don't know who told you not to go double forge but I think it's a big mistake. You actually need good upgrades (armor and attack but blink/glaives/charge -get them in that order- too) to fight on par with the T bio. For timing, I more mean to be safe from liberator harass. I don't want to get them too early and have mostly stalkers to deal with early marine push, but I also don't want to wait until the liberator is eating my probe line either. As far as pylon placement, I try to put a pylon between the mineral lines and gas, but then I'm vulnerable from behind. I've tried building a third pylon, but The advice on here also said not to make too many pylons either. Just to clarify, I'm not complaining, or discarding your input. Just trying to find the best option for pylon placement. When I've got a pylon in range, no number or liberators will cause me a problem. I've had a single pylon take out multiple liberators before, but that's only if they stop by one of my pylons. As far as blink, should I get that before or after resonating glaives? If I'm not able to get good scouting information, what do I do? Do I go tempest regardless? As stupid as this might sound, WHEN do I start building Tempest? Someone earlier said not to tech up too quickly, but I have literally no idea what's too quick. I know that they mean not to drop fleet beacon as soon as SG finishes but how long am I supposed to wait before teching up more. Against terran do build all 3 tech trees on 2 bases, or save the third for when I drop my third base? For pylons : you should have one pylon behind the mineral lines and another next to gas if they're vulnerable (depends on maps). If you see with your obs they're going to liberator harass your mineral lines it's fine to get a bit more supply than needed, their rushing liberators also imply they have fewer rax so late combat shield or stim, not many marines... For blink : you absolutely should get that first (and then glaives) if you want to play a defensive macro game. The mobility blink offers is just too good. And you seem to think you don't want to have stalkers to deal with a marine push : actually you want to have ~8 blink stalkers with adept and sentry support to deal with bio pushes. They allow to snipe medivacs and with proper adept support they do OK in bio fights. If you can't gather good intel, stalkers + adepts + sentry + storm is very flexible. If you see them turtle hard grab a fourth and get tempests. Though honestly, you only REALLY need tempests when they reach liberators range. Otherwise you can do more than fine with storm + colossi + archons + stalkers, though getting tempests is probably easier and less micro / positioning intensive. One thing for sure, NEVER go for tempests on two bases if you're not playing fancy (or on Ulrena). I'd even recommend to be mining from four bases before doing the air + storm transition. Everything the T will throw at you before that can be dealt with with a proper ground army.
Awesome! Thanks
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So has anyone else here been experimenting with a Nexus-Gate-Forge opener in PvZ? The build order is exactly like a Nexus first into double Gate opener except replacing one Gate with a Forge. It's basically safe vs. everything if you Pylon scout for fast Pools except for maps like Ulrena.
Some really interesting deviations come out of it (such as a ~5 min +1 Zealot/Oracle timing) and to me it feels like both a very strong macro opener via earlier upgrades and extremely safe since you have the option to throw cannons to basically defend vs. anything.
What you lose out on is the fast 2 adept timing, but that has become so common you really have to trick the zerg player to get any real damage with it. Plus most of the time, after the 2 initial adepts, you don't really use the extra early production of 2nd Gate and it sits idle.
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On March 23 2016 13:35 Skyro wrote:
So has anyone else here been experimenting with a Nexus-Gate-Forge opener in PvZ? The build order is exactly like a Nexus first into double Gate opener except replacing one Gate with a Forge. It's basically safe vs. everything if you Pylon scout for fast Pools except for maps like Ulrena.
Some really interesting deviations come out of it (such as a ~5 min +1 Zealot/Oracle timing) and to me it feels like both a very strong macro opener via earlier upgrades and extremely safe since you have the option to throw cannons to basically defend vs. anything.
What you lose out on is the fast 2 adept timing, but that has become so common you really have to trick the zerg player to get any real damage with it. Plus most of the time, after the 2 initial adepts, you don't really use the extra early production of 2nd Gate and it sits idle.
I was doing that build back in November-January a lot. Really good build and idk why I stopped doing it haha. Probably because I didn't want to go nexus first, but yeah, really good build. I didn't even do it for the ability to build cannons, but rather for the fact that you can have +2/+1 at the same time/even quicker than +2 in a normal build. Chargelots then take extra hits from lurkers/roaches/hydra and wreck face. The cannons are just an added bonus.
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Yeah faster upgrades feels like it exploits (for lack of a better word) macro 3 hatch openings better than whatever damage you can get with your 2 initial adepts. The fast +1 in particular is interesting to me because it lets you trade efficiently vs. lings as long as you don't get surrounded, letting you efficiency trade minerals for zerg larve (and thus stunt their droning) and/or causing some other early response from zerg to defend such as banelings or roaches.
And the option to throw down early cannons feels much more than an added bonus to me. It completely shuts down all cheese like fast ling drops or any Nydus shenanigans, but more importantly it lets you secure your 3rd much easier (as most do not build a Forge until after their 3rd). To me if really feels like Nexus Gate Forge is the new Forge FE (sans the offensive cannon part).
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On March 24 2016 02:40 Skyro wrote:
Yeah faster upgrades feels like it exploits (for lack of a better word) macro 3 hatch openings better than whatever damage you can get with your 2 initial adepts. The fast +1 in particular is interesting to me because it lets you trade efficiently vs. lings as long as you don't get surrounded, letting you efficiency trade minerals for zerg larve (and thus stunt their droning) and/or causing some other early response from zerg to defend such as banelings or roaches.
And the option to throw down early cannons feels much more than an added bonus to me. It completely shuts down all cheese like fast ling drops or any Nydus shenanigans, but more importantly it lets you secure your 3rd much easier (as most do not build a Forge until after their 3rd). To me if really feels like Nexus Gate Forge is the new Forge FE (sans the offensive cannon part).
How does a fast +1 help you out vs lings? For adepts it does not matter at all and adepts are so much better early on vs lings than zealots are. And why do you get your 3rd up safer? You still need to go out into the open and it takes much longer to finish a canon there vs lings than simply placing your larger adept count next to the building using them as a buffer. I don't have any trouble getting my 3rd nexus up early vs zerg with proper placement of my first 2 pylons at my 3rd and positioning the adepts in a smart way combined with the help of the core. I actually like when they make 20-30 speedlings vs this in the hope they can do damage once I figured out how to do it properly.
Ad fast attack upgrades: They scale tremendously with your later units (from midgame onwards) like chargelots, archons, immortals, so obviously this is crazy good for the later stages. I usually ad my forge soon after the 3rd base. If you want to apply some fast adept pressure with 6-8 adepts after taking your 3rd having put down a forge that early delays your attack way too much it feels to me (they will have roaches out or they did not need to cut quite as much eco) and if you want to use the adept upgrade for it this one will be delayed too much as well (same as the unit count, mostly i go out with 7 adepts, 6-8 seems fine to me).
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+1 zealots trade far more efficiently vs 0/0 lings than adepts, thus this forces more lings (or some alternative defense). A small hit squad of +1 zealots can threaten to kill a hatch as well if they didn't prepare for it. The point is simply to trade minerals efficiently, slow drone production, and also distract zerg to get your 3rd up. If they overproduce units and tries to counterattack, you now have cannons available to defend.
But in reality you don't have to do any of this. You can just macro, and the faster upgrades will likely pay far more dividends late game than whatever damage you could have achieved from opening an extra gate after nexus.
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EPT
