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On February 10 2016 00:29 Sweetness.751 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 14:31 Hyper1 wrote:
Hey guys, now that I'm gold pretty much every game I play is just going up against cheese. I've managed to scout it every single time, but lose regardless. I've followed the advice for each type exactly, and still lose hands down. Cannon rush, they send 2 probes, and while their probes are running around, they're dropping pylons faster than my probes and eventual zealot can kill them, then kill the cannon. My probes aren't faster than theirs so I can catch up to them to kill them before it's too late. Even if I pull every single probe and completely stop mining, they can still build more than my probes can kill, especially if they're smart enough to cancel if one is about to die.
So what opening actually does shut these down? You are suppose to pull the probes against the cannons, not the pylons. If they are trying to make a pylon wall that is a different ordeal however. If the pylon wall is up and warping in, then it is pointless to keep attacking the pylons. You are wasting precious seconds. Go back to mining, save 400 minerals, then make a Nexus immediately. But be aware that your opponent will try to cannon it as well. Thats where the Zealot can come in handy. If you went fast cyber core instead of a fast Nexus, you can get a Stalker and a MSC out. I suggest doing that if they only built 1 cannon behind your mineral line. With a pylon overcharge, a Stalker, and a MSC you should be able to DPS down a cannon. If you prevent him from getting a full wall, that's when pulling probes is useful. But again you don't really want to be killing pylons. Just the cannon. But most important of all. Kill his probe. It should be cornered in that semi-wall. This is an opportune time to kill it before the pylons finish. Most good players bring 2 probes so don't assume the cannon rush is over. If you can't kill the probes but denied the wall off. Put probes on patrol at key locations that would be good for a cannon. You want short patrol paths, that way he can't place a well timed cannon between your patrolling probes. Once you have a Stalker out, you are safe. And yes defending cannon rushes are harder than doing them. That is the landscape of the game.
Dude. If you have the time to afford a cyber and a MSC while being canon rushed, I think someone is doing something wrong.
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On February 10 2016 02:46 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 00:29 Sweetness.751 wrote:On February 08 2016 14:31 Hyper1 wrote:
Hey guys, now that I'm gold pretty much every game I play is just going up against cheese. I've managed to scout it every single time, but lose regardless. I've followed the advice for each type exactly, and still lose hands down. Cannon rush, they send 2 probes, and while their probes are running around, they're dropping pylons faster than my probes and eventual zealot can kill them, then kill the cannon. My probes aren't faster than theirs so I can catch up to them to kill them before it's too late. Even if I pull every single probe and completely stop mining, they can still build more than my probes can kill, especially if they're smart enough to cancel if one is about to die.
So what opening actually does shut these down? You are suppose to pull the probes against the cannons, not the pylons. If they are trying to make a pylon wall that is a different ordeal however. If the pylon wall is up and warping in, then it is pointless to keep attacking the pylons. You are wasting precious seconds. Go back to mining, save 400 minerals, then make a Nexus immediately. But be aware that your opponent will try to cannon it as well. Thats where the Zealot can come in handy. If you went fast cyber core instead of a fast Nexus, you can get a Stalker and a MSC out. I suggest doing that if they only built 1 cannon behind your mineral line. With a pylon overcharge, a Stalker, and a MSC you should be able to DPS down a cannon. If you prevent him from getting a full wall, that's when pulling probes is useful. But again you don't really want to be killing pylons. Just the cannon. But most important of all. Kill his probe. It should be cornered in that semi-wall. This is an opportune time to kill it before the pylons finish. Most good players bring 2 probes so don't assume the cannon rush is over. If you can't kill the probes but denied the wall off. Put probes on patrol at key locations that would be good for a cannon. You want short patrol paths, that way he can't place a well timed cannon between your patrolling probes. Once you have a Stalker out, you are safe. And yes defending cannon rushes are harder than doing them. That is the landscape of the game. Dude. If you have the time to afford a cyber and a MSC while being canon rushed, I think someone is doing something wrong.
he said if its a pylon wall its different, you can definitely get a MSC/stalker if they try to leapfrog cannons from the side of your base
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http://ggtracker.com/matches/6465319
So what was I supposed to do? I scouted that he was going to be going 1 base aggression, so I delayed my expansion to get out a larger army. Zealots I knew would be worthless because they would just get kited forever, adepts have too short a range, deal nearly no damage to anything other than marines, and I knew they would die to, plus they don't shoot up. I only had 1 real option to build, had a larger army, and still got crushed.
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On February 10 2016 15:32 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6465319So what was I supposed to do? I scouted that he was going to be going 1 base aggression, so I delayed my expansion to get out a larger army. Zealots I knew would be worthless because they would just get kited forever, adepts have too short a range, deal nearly no damage to anything other than marines, and I knew they would die to, plus they don't shoot up. I only had 1 real option to build, had a larger army, and still got crushed.
Basicaly..Just dont worry and go for standart build with nexus before cyber. but when u realise it will be 1base agression, just stop probe production for a little. get robo + 3gate, get wall of pylons on your ramp, because ramp is your advantage, and you need to def ramp, not nexus. And chrono warp/robo/gates , then slowly build probes...Here is example of response.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6465482
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Double post. Please delete
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On February 10 2016 15:32 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6465319So what was I supposed to do? I scouted that he was going to be going 1 base aggression, so I delayed my expansion to get out a larger army. Zealots I knew would be worthless because they would just get kited forever, adepts have too short a range, deal nearly no damage to anything other than marines, and I knew they would die to, plus they don't shoot up. I only had 1 real option to build, had a larger army, and still got crushed.
Delaying your expansion is not the right way to look at the problem. Think of it this way. If your opponent is going for an attack at a certain time, you need to either have a particular tech advantage, army advantage, or economy advantage to combat your opponent.
Just getting an army to deal with your opponent is not the right solution. What was your advantage? You are both on 1 base econ with 1 base production. Thus you both have 1 base army size, but your opponent has better tech. You delayed your econ so your later expo hasn't paid for itself in more production (additional gateways) and a larger army.
If you want to beat your opponent by getting an expansion, you need to expand sooner, not later. Then use the extra 8 probes mining at your natural, to get an extra 2 gateways for more units and stronger production. With that being said, a cheese or a proxy rush is designed to punish fast expos because they hit so much sooner. Well before the extra base typically finishes, much less supports additional production structures. But against a 1 base player, a proxy rush will be behind in tech and sometimes even econ (depending on the rush), in order to have a stronger army value.
These are the pillars of Starcraft: Economy, Army Value, and Technology. The lesson being, the winner of the match usually has the advantage in 2 of these 3 categories
For instance, lets say you proxy rax your opponent. You are committing to having an advantage in army value. You are probably behind in econ because your opponent has non-stop worker production and has spent money on an additional base. (*Note the additional base has not paid for itself) Tech is even because nether player has invested in that area. If unscouted, your opponent wont know to adjust their build. They will not use their econ advantage (extra workers) to make adequate production to combat your incoming push. They lose their army fighting yours, and eventually their workers. You now have an advantage in army value and economy (2 of the 3 pillars). The game ends.
This is a simplified version of SC2, but the premise holds. You spend money in 1 of these 3 pillars in the attempt to gain an advantage over your opponent. You then use your advantage to get a bigger lead in that pillar or another pillar. i.e. Taking an expo (econ), making more production structures (army), researching upgrades (army), building workers (econ), constructing tech structures (tech) to unlock units or abilities. Back and forth the game goes. This is why scouting is vital. The game is very reactionary. React improperly, and the game ends. React accordingly, and the game goes on.
You need to find your edge, and exploit it. When you do, you will rise above the trudge.
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Ok, I'm confused now. So is the answer to expand or not to expand? If his one base attack is designed to punish me for expanding, then how is expanding the right choice?
I've found in most of my games looking at the replays and the stats, that I'm normally up in economy, tech, and have an army just as big or bigger than his, and my army dies regardless. It really makes me think that the only thing that matters is making sure your army is the perfect counter to exactly what your opponent randomly chooses to build, and micro'ing. But why doesn't this seem true for terran and zerg? They don't seem to care what I build. They build the exact same comp every time reguardless, and unless they just play really really bad, win with it.
I'm not trying to whine, I'm just trying to figure out how no lead really seems to matter if you can't counter their blind build perfectly.
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On February 11 2016 04:58 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, I'm confused now. So is the answer to expand or not to expand? If his one base attack is designed to punish me for expanding, then how is expanding the right choice?
I've found in most of my games looking at the replays and the stats, that I'm normally up in economy, tech, and have an army just as big or bigger than his, and my army dies regardless. It really makes me think that the only thing that matters is making sure your army is the perfect counter to exactly what your opponent randomly chooses to build, and micro'ing. But why doesn't this seem true for terran and zerg? They don't seem to care what I build. They build the exact same comp every time reguardless, and unless they just play really really bad, win with it.
I'm not trying to whine, I'm just trying to figure out how no lead really seems to matter if you can't counter their blind build perfectly.
Against Terran you should always open Gate Gas Nexus Core, the only time you should not get (or cancel) the Nexus is if you scout multiple Barracks proxied near your base. There are a few niche builds that delay the Nexus but you don't need to bother with those (such as proxy Oracle, proxying a 2nd and 3rd Gate, and possibly some 2 Gate pressure builds). By the time any Terran 1-base all-in hits you the 2nd base will have more than paid for itself.
If you're constantly losing fights with a bigger army then you are probably taking fights in awful positions and miscontrolling your army in basic ways (things like having units that aren't attacking because you didn't stutter step forward).
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On February 11 2016 11:19 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 04:58 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, I'm confused now. So is the answer to expand or not to expand? If his one base attack is designed to punish me for expanding, then how is expanding the right choice?
I've found in most of my games looking at the replays and the stats, that I'm normally up in economy, tech, and have an army just as big or bigger than his, and my army dies regardless. It really makes me think that the only thing that matters is making sure your army is the perfect counter to exactly what your opponent randomly chooses to build, and micro'ing. But why doesn't this seem true for terran and zerg? They don't seem to care what I build. They build the exact same comp every time reguardless, and unless they just play really really bad, win with it.
I'm not trying to whine, I'm just trying to figure out how no lead really seems to matter if you can't counter their blind build perfectly. Against Terran you should always open Gate Gas Nexus Core, the only time you should not get (or cancel) the Nexus is if you scout multiple Barracks proxied near your base. There are a few niche builds that delay the Nexus but you don't need to bother with those (such as proxy Oracle, proxying a 2nd and 3rd Gate, and possibly some 2 Gate pressure builds). By the time any Terran 1-base all-in hits you the 2nd base will have more than paid for itself. If you're constantly losing fights with a bigger army then you are probably taking fights in awful positions and miscontrolling your army in basic ways (things like having units that aren't attacking because you didn't stutter step forward).
So you're saying I should always be building a macro nexus? Lol, I'm just kidding! I'll expand regardless of what terran does short from proxy.
So what comp do I want against terran? Should I be trying to tech all the way to the top to get something that can handle marines? How do I stop marine/liberator? So far I've found that chargelots/immortals/archons/adepts/voidrays are all worthless if the army has marines in it. I've had mixed luck with HT/colossus/stalkers. Stalkers die a little slower than other gateway units, Colossus do ok as long as the terran player doesn't just target them down quickly, and HT's do well as long as it's only bio, but melt if there's any siege in the mix.
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On February 05 2016 05:41 Shield wrote:
Is it me or is holding off early aggression in PvZ just too hard? You try to defend vs those lings, you take third base but zerg is just ahead.
It's pretty god damn hard. I defended an early pool build from a Zerg on Orbital yesterday, only losing a pylon and having to build and extra gate and pylon at my wall to keep his lings out. I then take a third, go up to immortals and lots of gates. He then proceeds to go Lurker/Hyrdra/Ling of three bases, walks to my base, and bops me.
It seems like the Protoss has to walk a razor's edge of getting splash up quickly enough not to die to such an attack, but can't tech too quickly to fall victim to something quicker like a follow-up Roach Ravager timing. What do y'all recommend? Seems like I'm always behind if I get early pooled in PvZ.
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On February 11 2016 12:31 Hyper1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 11:19 ZAiNs wrote:On February 11 2016 04:58 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, I'm confused now. So is the answer to expand or not to expand? If his one base attack is designed to punish me for expanding, then how is expanding the right choice?
I've found in most of my games looking at the replays and the stats, that I'm normally up in economy, tech, and have an army just as big or bigger than his, and my army dies regardless. It really makes me think that the only thing that matters is making sure your army is the perfect counter to exactly what your opponent randomly chooses to build, and micro'ing. But why doesn't this seem true for terran and zerg? They don't seem to care what I build. They build the exact same comp every time reguardless, and unless they just play really really bad, win with it.
I'm not trying to whine, I'm just trying to figure out how no lead really seems to matter if you can't counter their blind build perfectly. Against Terran you should always open Gate Gas Nexus Core, the only time you should not get (or cancel) the Nexus is if you scout multiple Barracks proxied near your base. There are a few niche builds that delay the Nexus but you don't need to bother with those (such as proxy Oracle, proxying a 2nd and 3rd Gate, and possibly some 2 Gate pressure builds). By the time any Terran 1-base all-in hits you the 2nd base will have more than paid for itself. If you're constantly losing fights with a bigger army then you are probably taking fights in awful positions and miscontrolling your army in basic ways (things like having units that aren't attacking because you didn't stutter step forward). So you're saying I should always be building a macro nexus? Lol, I'm just kidding! I'll expand regardless of what terran does short from proxy. So what comp do I want against terran? Should I be trying to tech all the way to the top to get something that can handle marines? How do I stop marine/liberator? So far I've found that chargelots/immortals/archons/adepts/voidrays are all worthless if the army has marines in it. I've had mixed luck with HT/colossus/stalkers. Stalkers die a little slower than other gateway units, Colossus do ok as long as the terran player doesn't just target them down quickly, and HT's do well as long as it's only bio, but melt if there's any siege in the mix.
Yes, you should almost always expand, regardless of the Terran's play, unless it's a proxy (but you should scout before the expo would go down for proxies). In very few situations will delaying your expansion help you if your entire build is focused around expanding early. On the other hand, going for an aggressive build off of 1 base yourself is an option, but you need to commit either way.
Disruptors and HT are currently the most-used splash in the Protoss arsenal. I would recommend going up to a Twilight soon after your Robo (watch a standard professional game of PvT to see this done), getting Res. Glaives for your Adepts, and getting HT or Disruptors (depending on what your prefer). To kill Marines, HT and Adepts with Glaives (and good upgrades from your Forges) are all necessary. You'll want to be prepared with a good economy, lots of gates, Blink, and a third or fourth base before attacking a high econ. Terran with Liberators. Most importantly: DON'T FIGHT UNDERNEATH LIBERATORS. I don't care how much bigger your army is, if you let it sit under 6 Libs for too long, it's gone.
Good luck. I think you'll find that, at your level, which I believe to be Gold from the last pic you posted, better macro will trump all. Keep working on getting more units before you worry too much about which units you're getting.
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On February 11 2016 12:31 Hyper1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 11:19 ZAiNs wrote:On February 11 2016 04:58 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, I'm confused now. So is the answer to expand or not to expand? If his one base attack is designed to punish me for expanding, then how is expanding the right choice?
I've found in most of my games looking at the replays and the stats, that I'm normally up in economy, tech, and have an army just as big or bigger than his, and my army dies regardless. It really makes me think that the only thing that matters is making sure your army is the perfect counter to exactly what your opponent randomly chooses to build, and micro'ing. But why doesn't this seem true for terran and zerg? They don't seem to care what I build. They build the exact same comp every time reguardless, and unless they just play really really bad, win with it.
I'm not trying to whine, I'm just trying to figure out how no lead really seems to matter if you can't counter their blind build perfectly. Against Terran you should always open Gate Gas Nexus Core, the only time you should not get (or cancel) the Nexus is if you scout multiple Barracks proxied near your base. There are a few niche builds that delay the Nexus but you don't need to bother with those (such as proxy Oracle, proxying a 2nd and 3rd Gate, and possibly some 2 Gate pressure builds). By the time any Terran 1-base all-in hits you the 2nd base will have more than paid for itself. If you're constantly losing fights with a bigger army then you are probably taking fights in awful positions and miscontrolling your army in basic ways (things like having units that aren't attacking because you didn't stutter step forward). So you're saying I should always be building a macro nexus? Lol, I'm just kidding! I'll expand regardless of what terran does short from proxy. So what comp do I want against terran? Should I be trying to tech all the way to the top to get something that can handle marines? How do I stop marine/liberator? So far I've found that chargelots/immortals/archons/adepts/voidrays are all worthless if the army has marines in it. I've had mixed luck with HT/colossus/stalkers. Stalkers die a little slower than other gateway units, Colossus do ok as long as the terran player doesn't just target them down quickly, and HT's do well as long as it's only bio, but melt if there's any siege in the mix.
For your level I think you should just make mass Adept Immortal, the Adept attack speed upgrade is important and so are upgrades (go double Forge and throw your chronos on them). If they get Liberators making Void Rays is probably the easiest way to deal with them, just make sure you focus fire them (they kill Liberators really fast when you use their ability). At higher-levels Stalkers are super important, but they can be difficult to use so you shouldn't have to make them. You can add HT with Storm later but you can probably end games before that's really necessary.
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So how do I macro more? I spend all the resources I have, try to always stay ahead of my opponent on bases, build workers constantly for most if not all of the game. And unless my army is twice the size, marine+anything still wins. I understand I shouldn't worry about the army comp and just macro, but when he attacks and I lose the game, I can't keep macroing. PO seems to do nothing, adepts kill light units about as fast as zealots but deal considerably less damage to everything else, and it's hard to get HT/disruptors out before terran tech to marine. I've tried disruptor against terran, I'm just not sure how to stop them from targeting it as soon as I fire, or prevent them from spreading or stimming out of it. My HT's usually seem to die to tank/liberator fire before they can get close enough to the army to do anything, and while I shouldn't fight in siege area's, I also don't like just giving up my base because he built liberators and stay contained until he decides to stop using liberators, or move his army outside of siege zones so I can actually engage him. As far as void rays to counter, how do I stop them from just vanishing to the marine army before they can kill a liberator? It seems like unless terran just doesn't build any units, or plays super poorly, there's no real way to stop them. How do I force them into having to change out of bio to respond to me instead of me having to 'counter' them perfectly to stand any chance at all?
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In general, PvZ, 1Gate FE. Send Probe after Nexus. You see Zerg 1 base Speedlings. You cancel Nexus. What's the next step? How do you be safe 1 base from Bling bust, Nydus, and how do you get scouting information?
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Is 19 Nexus still playable in PvP after the overcharge nerf ? It seems pro players are favoring two gas openers with a 1 base robo now, why is that ?
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Ok, so this might sound like a stupid question, but how do you beat a turtling 2 base terran? I though I was supposed to just expand and I would win with macro. But 5 bases to 2, 30 minutes into the game, I still lost easily. I knew what units he was building, I couldn't harass because he built an insane amount of turrets, he never went past 2 base, and just hid building liberators and BC's as his final build, with some tanks and marines mixed in from early game. He was 2/1 on 2 bases, I was 3/3 on 5 bases. I went Stalker/HT/Void Ray. But he threw down liberator zones, and I was stuck with either running away forever, or fighting. Obviously fighting rather than GG to liberators was the wrong choice and I wasted a half hour losing to a 2 base terran...
So if I can't harass, and can't out macro, and income doesn't actually matter in the least, what is the perfect combination of units to beat that build? I know I'm supposed to just out macro them, but if being up on them by 3 bases, and upgrades, and army isn't enough macro to be able to out macro terran, I'm not sure what's left, unless I can get past 200 supply somehow. So how much more macro do I need before it can beat terran? Or does protoss just need the absolute perfect build to stand a chance against whatever terran randomly chooses to go?
Edit: Near the end of the game, he started taking his third when I was taking my 6th. But he had 10 liberators and 9 BC's, so I guess not much else really mattered :-/
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On February 12 2016 14:57 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, so this might sound like a stupid question, but how do you beat a turtling 2 base terran? I though I was supposed to just expand and I would win with macro. But 5 bases to 2, 30 minutes into the game, I still lost easily. I knew what units he was building, I couldn't harass because he built an insane amount of turrets, he never went past 2 base, and just hid building liberators and BC's as his final build, with some tanks and marines mixed in from early game. He was 2/1 on 2 bases, I was 3/3 on 5 bases. I went Stalker/HT/Void Ray. But he threw down liberator zones, and I was stuck with either running away forever, or fighting. Obviously fighting rather than GG to liberators was the wrong choice and I wasted a half hour losing to a 2 base terran...
So if I can't harass, and can't out macro, and income doesn't actually matter in the least, what is the perfect combination of units to beat that build? I know I'm supposed to just out macro them, but if being up on them by 3 bases, and upgrades, and army isn't enough macro to be able to out macro terran, I'm not sure what's left, unless I can get past 200 supply somehow. So how much more macro do I need before it can beat terran? Or does protoss just need the absolute perfect build to stand a chance against whatever terran randomly chooses to go?
Edit: Near the end of the game, he started taking his third when I was taking my 6th. But he had 10 liberators and 9 BC's, so I guess not much else really mattered :-/
Post the replay here and we will tell you precisely what went wrong and how to remedy that. Replays help us a lot. 
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On February 12 2016 14:57 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, so this might sound like a stupid question, but how do you beat a turtling 2 base terran? I though I was supposed to just expand and I would win with macro. But 5 bases to 2, 30 minutes into the game, I still lost easily. I knew what units he was building, I couldn't harass because he built an insane amount of turrets, he never went past 2 base, and just hid building liberators and BC's as his final build, with some tanks and marines mixed in from early game. He was 2/1 on 2 bases, I was 3/3 on 5 bases. I went Stalker/HT/Void Ray. But he threw down liberator zones, and I was stuck with either running away forever, or fighting. Obviously fighting rather than GG to liberators was the wrong choice and I wasted a half hour losing to a 2 base terran...
So if I can't harass, and can't out macro, and income doesn't actually matter in the least, what is the perfect combination of units to beat that build? I know I'm supposed to just out macro them, but if being up on them by 3 bases, and upgrades, and army isn't enough macro to be able to out macro terran, I'm not sure what's left, unless I can get past 200 supply somehow. So how much more macro do I need before it can beat terran? Or does protoss just need the absolute perfect build to stand a chance against whatever terran randomly chooses to go?
Edit: Near the end of the game, he started taking his third when I was taking my 6th. But he had 10 liberators and 9 BC's, so I guess not much else really mattered :-/
We're going to need a replay to answer for sure but what I can say for now: Liberators and BCs are shut down pretty hard by Tempests if you're given the time to transition (pretty tight in a normal game, not too hard if Terrans turtle), which should be the case according to how you describe he turtles. Use an oracle to reveal, watch him being grinded to death and protect your Tempests with a ground army (HTs with storm is pretty good as you'll be able to feeback BCs and storm anything that tries to come close to your Tempests..
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On February 12 2016 14:57 Hyper1 wrote:
Ok, so this might sound like a stupid question, but how do you beat a turtling 2 base terran? I though I was supposed to just expand and I would win with macro. But 5 bases to 2, 30 minutes into the game, I still lost easily. I knew what units he was building, I couldn't harass because he built an insane amount of turrets, he never went past 2 base, and just hid building liberators and BC's as his final build, with some tanks and marines mixed in from early game. He was 2/1 on 2 bases, I was 3/3 on 5 bases. I went Stalker/HT/Void Ray. But he threw down liberator zones, and I was stuck with either running away forever, or fighting. Obviously fighting rather than GG to liberators was the wrong choice and I wasted a half hour losing to a 2 base terran...
So if I can't harass, and can't out macro, and income doesn't actually matter in the least, what is the perfect combination of units to beat that build? I know I'm supposed to just out macro them, but if being up on them by 3 bases, and upgrades, and army isn't enough macro to be able to out macro terran, I'm not sure what's left, unless I can get past 200 supply somehow. So how much more macro do I need before it can beat terran? Or does protoss just need the absolute perfect build to stand a chance against whatever terran randomly chooses to go?
Edit: Near the end of the game, he started taking his third when I was taking my 6th. But he had 10 liberators and 9 BC's, so I guess not much else really mattered :-/
when you see terran turtling. just make three stargates, fleet beacon, while beacon in progress, make 2-3 oracles, then make 6 tempest, and siege him.
Reveal his units and buildings constantly, attack with tempest, while macro behind...you will kill him eventually
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EPT
