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On January 18 2016 09:12 Dracover wrote:
Has anyone thought about how they would play post adept and PO nerf? For me I spent a lot of time trying to open without using adept pressure and eventually gave up. Now I'm really not sure how to open.
PvT - i feel like an adept drop is the only thing stopping terrans from walking across the map with their first liberator and just sit themselves at your 3rd (if your expanding) or your nat to stop you going anywhere.
PvZ - Adepts is what stops them from making 60 drones and no units. Also the PO is what is used to defend the fast 3rd.
Just looking for ideas that can be tried if anyone has any or even thought about it.
Hard to predict the effect that the photon overcharge nerf will have, but the adept change only impacts PvT. They are still just as good in PvZ so you don't have to worry about that. For defending with the new photon overcharge, we will have to be a bit less greedy in PvT, and probably not do really really quick thirds in PvZ.
I don't know if this will turn out to be true, but because pylon die to ravager shots anyway, maybe the increased dps will be more useful for holding off these timings as you get out more damage before they die. Obviously you have less overcharges, but interesting thought maybe.
Adept drop obviously does limit what the terran can do at the moment, probably unfairly as they have to turtle for a long time. We will probably go back to opening blink robo or stargate to deal with lib/mine/cyclone/ w/e they send at us.
My thoughts are that it will turn out alright 
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All in all, it seems like all the changes were focused around trying to make terran even more OP. I don't think the changes will have a huge effect on PvZ, if anything I think the nerfs to zerg will help us more than ours will hurt us in that matchup Though PvT I see pretty much having to turtle to defend against harass, and never being even close to keeping up with terrans power or economy.
Ultamately, I see liberators continuing to be unchallenged units that will dominate the battlefield. Bio balls being even more powerful now, but terran will have the freedom to win with whatever unit combination they want regardless of what anyone else does. Though I doubt anyone other than master rank will have to worry about this. If you're in gold you'll be facing off against terran who should only be in bronze, so with a large enough skill lead, the rest of the game will even out. If you're in masters... I dunno, cheese, then gg if that fails?
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On January 18 2016 09:49 mGGrinehart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2016 09:12 Dracover wrote:
Has anyone thought about how they would play post adept and PO nerf? For me I spent a lot of time trying to open without using adept pressure and eventually gave up. Now I'm really not sure how to open.
PvT - i feel like an adept drop is the only thing stopping terrans from walking across the map with their first liberator and just sit themselves at your 3rd (if your expanding) or your nat to stop you going anywhere.
PvZ - Adepts is what stops them from making 60 drones and no units. Also the PO is what is used to defend the fast 3rd.
Just looking for ideas that can be tried if anyone has any or even thought about it.
Hard to predict the effect that the photon overcharge nerf will have, but the adept change only impacts PvT. They are still just as good in PvZ so you don't have to worry about that. For defending with the new photon overcharge, we will have to be a bit less greedy in PvT, and probably not do really really quick thirds in PvZ. I don't know if this will turn out to be true, but because pylon die to ravager shots anyway, maybe the increased dps will be more useful for holding off these timings as you get out more damage before they die. Obviously you have less overcharges, but interesting thought maybe. Adept drop obviously does limit what the terran can do at the moment, probably unfairly as they have to turtle for a long time. We will probably go back to opening blink robo or stargate to deal with lib/mine/cyclone/ w/e they send at us. My thoughts are that it will turn out alright
Stop being so sensible.
Worst update ever!
Nah tbh I don't know, and I'm the person to ask, as PvT is my worst MU. I also struggle at bit vs zerg, but I have a build that is not too gimmicky and does well. I hope I can still do basicly the same thing after PO nerf. I believe I can do the same or something very similar.
PvT I still take too much damage from WMs if I go adept rush. Or it's about even, but I also need a lead for when libs become a big factor. So even trades in worker damage is very bad.
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On January 19 2016 01:46 Mozdk wrote:
Nah tbh I don't know, and I'm the person to ask, as PvT is my worst MU. I also struggle at bit vs zerg, but I have a build that is not too gimmicky and does well. I hope I can still do basicly the same thing after PO nerf. I believe I can do the same or something very similar.
PvT I still take too much damage from WMs if I go adept rush. Or it's about even, but I also need a lead for when libs become a big factor. So even trades in worker damage is very bad.
I regard the siege tank nerf as much more consequential than the mothership core or adept nerf. The adept nerf is really to weaken the 2-base 8-gate all-ins in PvT. Adepts are a great harass unit, but they're terrible in large army engagements.
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what nerfs are you guys talking about, i dont keep up on balance or patches or anything
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edit: ill complain in another thread
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On January 19 2016 06:14 travis wrote:
what nerfs are you guys talking about, i dont keep up on balance or patches or anything
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/blizztracker/ Check out all of Dayvie's posts for what they're planning. They have balance test maps available in custom to test out all the unit changes they're considering. Nothing's ever final until the patch is released.
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For PvT I felt as if adept drops (which may be OP I'm not saying it is or isn't) was the only thing stopping a parade of liberators and bio mid game from just preventing you expanding (assuming you just don't die cause I feel it's pretty strong timing on it's own).
I've watched a lot of State's stream and I saw a string of games against Maru where this is exactly what happens i.e. State doesn't go for adepts drop plays "more standard" with robo tech etc and every time maru comes across with the liberator bio and will grind out a win because you just can't engage that army at that stage.
I feel like whether it's an adept's or something else, something needs to be done to slow down that push and I suppose that's what I'm asking for ideas about because I haven't seen a defensive build order that's safe to the mid game push.
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On January 19 2016 07:38 FlyingBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:14 travis wrote:
what nerfs are you guys talking about, i dont keep up on balance or patches or anything http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/blizztracker/ Check out all of Dayvie's posts for what they're planning. They have balance test maps available in custom to test out all the unit changes they're considering. Nothing's ever final until the patch is released.
Thank you, I'm happy they're at least pretending to do something to bring terran back down to everyone else's level. Though they're not exactly sparing the nerf stick from anyone else to make sure nothing really can stand up to terran at all. I think Blizzard either favors terran, or pays absolutely no attention to games, or what anyone says.
Looking at protoss forums and posts, the main concerns seem to be terran harass, how to stand up to terran armies made of T1 units, and having no reasonable way to deal with liberators.
Looking at Zerg forums and posts, the main concerns seem to be terran harass, especially reapers, and just generally how to stand up to terran.
Looking at terran forums and posts, the main concerns are that everything else needs to get nerfed. Adapts can get into your base too easily if you don't wall (ironic as they have reapers), adapts can scout too easy (Again, scan), PO gives protoss a way to not auto-lose from a single drop, ravagers can take down walls and liberators fairly easily, and ultra's with upgrades can take down groups of T1 units. Hell I've even seen terran complain about terran being too strong in mirror matchups, lol.
If they want game balance, make PO only work on pylons near a nexus or gateway, like the faster warp-ins. Keep adapts light and let terran learn to make hellions if they want to counter. Increase zergling run speed on creep slightly. Lower marine dps, and buff thor armor, and landed viking damage. Of course get rid of reaper mine. Increase the spawn time ok lurker/ravanger, maybe find a way to prevent pumping out 16 muta's at once, lol.
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On January 19 2016 09:03 Dracover wrote:
For PvT I felt as if adept drops (which may be OP I'm not saying it is or isn't) was the only thing stopping a parade of liberators and bio mid game from just preventing you expanding (assuming you just don't die cause I feel it's pretty strong timing on it's own).
I've watched a lot of State's stream and I saw a string of games against Maru where this is exactly what happens i.e. State doesn't go for adepts drop plays "more standard" with robo tech etc and every time maru comes across with the liberator bio and will grind out a win because you just can't engage that army at that stage.
I feel like whether it's an adept's or something else, something needs to be done to slow down that push and I suppose that's what I'm asking for ideas about because I haven't seen a defensive build order that's safe to the mid game push.
I don't think adapt drop is anymore powerful than a marine drop, or widow mine drop. Terran just don't like anything that could slow them down, or harass them like they do to everyone else. Otherwise they might have to build a sensor tower to see drops coming... I wish protoss could do that, lol. Would be way better than having to leave units and a mothership core at home, weakening the army going up against theirs at full strength, lol.
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Is it worth opening 1 gate => stargate before expanding vs Zerg? I find that if you skip the MSC and rush straight for phoenixes you can get them out significantly faster and pressure the zerg into making spores much quicker delaying their economy.
The downside is you get a later expansion and i'm not sure if zerg would still be ahead or not if they just don't care and go 3 hatch before pool gasless just spamming drones despite the phoenix damage.
I'm currently doing this on maps with the natural inside the main, since I don't need to get the MSC out to defend the natural, so I delay making it until I am going to take my third.
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On January 19 2016 09:22 AkashSky wrote:
Is it worth opening 1 gate => stargate before expanding vs Zerg? I find that if you skip the MSC and rush straight for phoenixes you can get them out significantly faster and pressure the zerg into making spores much quicker delaying their economy.
The downside is you get a later expansion and i'm not sure if zerg would still be ahead or not if they just don't care and go 3 hatch before pool gasless just spamming drones despite the phoenix damage.
I'm currently doing this on maps with the natural inside the main, since I don't need to get the MSC out to defend the natural, so I delay making it until I am going to take my third.
I'm by no means a pro player, but I feel this would only be feasible if you got some good early game harass with that first gateway. From what I've seen so far zerg seem to be going hatch pool hatch, sometime with gas thrown in there. So by the time you got a phoenix ball, they would likely have a good economic lead on you. Not to mention overlord scouting if they see, which they likely will, they'll immediately drop spores which would stop you from getting enough done to make it worth it. Even if they don't scout it, a lot of zerg will build spores in their mineral line regardless to protect from drops and stealth if they can't get a good scout.
I'm not saying it won't work, I'm just not sure it will deal enough economical damage to make it worth it or not.
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On January 19 2016 09:22 AkashSky wrote:
Is it worth opening 1 gate => stargate before expanding vs Zerg? I find that if you skip the MSC and rush straight for phoenixes you can get them out significantly faster and pressure the zerg into making spores much quicker delaying their economy.
The downside is you get a later expansion and i'm not sure if zerg would still be ahead or not if they just don't care and go 3 hatch before pool gasless just spamming drones despite the phoenix damage.
I'm currently doing this on maps with the natural inside the main, since I don't need to get the MSC out to defend the natural, so I delay making it until I am going to take my third.
Not worth it. The doble stargate after expansion do the job preety good.
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On January 19 2016 14:47 TedBurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 09:22 AkashSky wrote:
Is it worth opening 1 gate => stargate before expanding vs Zerg? I find that if you skip the MSC and rush straight for phoenixes you can get them out significantly faster and pressure the zerg into making spores much quicker delaying their economy.
The downside is you get a later expansion and i'm not sure if zerg would still be ahead or not if they just don't care and go 3 hatch before pool gasless just spamming drones despite the phoenix damage.
I'm currently doing this on maps with the natural inside the main, since I don't need to get the MSC out to defend the natural, so I delay making it until I am going to take my third. Not worth it. The doble stargate after expansion do the job preety good.
Do we have a rough stub on how the GSL protosses are playing this style?
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http://ggtracker.com/matches/6415360
Can I get some advice on how I lost? I kept up in economy, spent my resources better, had a larger army. When we clashed all he had was an upgrade advantage. I know I should have waited a few more seconds for it to finish, but did I simply lose the game because I didn't have an upgrade advantage?
I accept my micro was bad, I lost my oracle early because I didn't micro it very well. I delayed my third because my oracle didn't see the zerg building a third so I waited until I could scout more before I expanded in case it was some kind of 2 base muta build. I know I built too many construction buildings, but I'm not good enough to spend my resources perfectly so I've been trying to build more so I can warp in more with what I build up. I should have used more hotkeys to stop my phoenix from flying in, and reenforced with my warp prism. While I understand those mistakes, I would still think the battle wouldn't have been as one sided as it was.
Thanks for the advice.
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can someone educate me on the double stargate after expo build vs zerg? thanks
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On January 20 2016 09:55 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6415360Can I get some advice on how I lost? I kept up in economy, spent my resources better, had a larger army. When we clashed all he had was an upgrade advantage. I know I should have waited a few more seconds for it to finish, but did I simply lose the game because I didn't have an upgrade advantage? I accept my micro was bad, I lost my oracle early because I didn't micro it very well. I delayed my third because my oracle didn't see the zerg building a third so I waited until I could scout more before I expanded in case it was some kind of 2 base muta build. I know I built too many construction buildings, but I'm not good enough to spend my resources perfectly so I've been trying to build more so I can warp in more with what I build up. I should have used more hotkeys to stop my phoenix from flying in, and reenforced with my warp prism. While I understand those mistakes, I would still think the battle wouldn't have been as one sided as it was. Thanks for the advice.
the number one thing at this level is to improve your macro, improve your timings
but I assume you know this. so far as strategy, here are some tips
1.) you use an oracle, but you fly it head on into his mineral line. don't do this. fly from the back/side so that you instantly appear killing drones
2.) when you built like a million gateways I assumed you were going to do a gateway allin. but then you wait a second and build a robo and 2 forges. If you aren't going to go allin then get your tech/upgrades as fast as you can.
3.) if you are goign to make carriers get the carrier upgrade immediately.
4.) you lost the fight, because in the battle of "a-move" armies, his army was the much better composed one and better at fighting big fights. something that does AOE damage (disruptor, templar, collossus) would have easily won you that fight. whatever race you play, you need to play to the strengths of. despite what a lot of ignorant people might say, protoss is naturally a micro intensive race because it's strengths in LOTV are it's tech (and adepts - which also take some micro). so, play to your races strength - get more tech.
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On January 20 2016 11:00 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 09:55 Hyper1 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6415360Can I get some advice on how I lost? I kept up in economy, spent my resources better, had a larger army. When we clashed all he had was an upgrade advantage. I know I should have waited a few more seconds for it to finish, but did I simply lose the game because I didn't have an upgrade advantage? I accept my micro was bad, I lost my oracle early because I didn't micro it very well. I delayed my third because my oracle didn't see the zerg building a third so I waited until I could scout more before I expanded in case it was some kind of 2 base muta build. I know I built too many construction buildings, but I'm not good enough to spend my resources perfectly so I've been trying to build more so I can warp in more with what I build up. I should have used more hotkeys to stop my phoenix from flying in, and reenforced with my warp prism. While I understand those mistakes, I would still think the battle wouldn't have been as one sided as it was. Thanks for the advice. the number one thing at this level is to improve your macro, improve your timings but I assume you know this. so far as strategy, here are some tips 1.) you use an oracle, but you fly it head on into his mineral line. don't do this. fly from the back/side so that you instantly appear killing drones 2.) when you built like a million gateways I assumed you were going to do a gateway allin. but then you wait a second and build a robo and 2 forges. If you aren't going to go allin then get your tech/upgrades as fast as you can. 3.) if you are goign to make carriers get the carrier upgrade immediately. 4.) you lost the fight, because in the battle of "a-move" armies, his army was the much better composed one and better at fighting big fights. something that does AOE damage (disruptor, templar, collossus) would have easily won you that fight. whatever race you play, you need to play to the strengths of. despite what a lot of ignorant people might say, protoss is naturally a micro intensive race because it's strengths in LOTV are it's tech (and adepts - which also take some micro). so, play to your races strength - get more tech.
Thanks for the advice, I normally try to run my oracle in from the side, and actually that's what I started with this time, I was going after the gold base though as I figured he had gotten a third at this point, or at least a second at the gold. When that didn't happen I went for the natural and flew straight in, which I realize wasn't a good idea.
I built the gateways so I could have something to dump resources into so I didn't end up pooling a large amount at once. I built the robo as well to have more tech options, as well as observers for vision.
Thanks for the advice on the carriers, I almost never use them, but wanted to do something with my stargate so I figured a couple carriers might not be a bad idea, but decided on that far to late.
Is there any way I can practice my micro skills? Despite how bad I played, I was actually really happy with my macro for most of that game, and would like to be able to micro better so I can use more spell casters and things. I would like to learn how to control an army, use spells, while not missing out on my base back home. The problem is I'm not very good at microing at all, and not sure how to practice smaller engagement. Pro's always seem to have small skirmishes super early, but as you can see, I barely poke me head out of my base without a massive army. How do I move out with like 3 stalkers and actually get more done than just getting them killed?
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On January 20 2016 11:18 Hyper1 wrote:
Is there any way I can practice my micro skills?
Play more, play aggressively, rely on ground units over air.
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On January 21 2016 03:49 madness1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 11:18 Hyper1 wrote:
Is there any way I can practice my micro skills? Play more, play aggressively, rely on ground units over air.
I would recommend just playing with two control groups. You should be at the point where you have all the hotkeys memorized, using two control groups will force you to cycle between them and utilize more hotkeys. Ground or air units do not matter, everything has it's own purpose, you want effective micro. Aggression or defense, micro is about reacting quickly and optimally. Like mentioned above I agree with play more.
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EPT
