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On December 07 2016 22:29 Damien wrote:I'm having problems to hold this kind of protoss pressure on TvP. Can you guys help me with some tips? When protoss make more than 1 gate begore exp, I don't know how to react properly. P.S. - I've noticed that my first push was not good. Need I to do that? Attacking when hold his poke? I'm thinking about cut widow mines and produce liberators. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6892323
I am about to open up your replay but if I can reccomend something just open with the 2/1/1 build vs protoss and zerg its the most efficient bio build you can do and it should help you improve general marine control and timings very well
(EDIT)
Okay so the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that your macro slips a lot. Your tech is delayed your production is off and you're not making enough workers. Don't go for such an early attack I would recommend you find a timing attack / build to hit when you do your first push. As well your production cycle should have been
2 medivacs, 3 marauders 4 marines 1 tank (he was stalker heavy siege tanks rip them apart)
After you have 4 Medivacs you just make non-stop liberator. If they got Colossi or in this case voidrays you can do vikings or at 3 base add a 2nd star-port to make 4 vikings or 2 vikings 2 liberators
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On December 07 2016 22:29 Damien wrote:I'm having problems to hold this kind of protoss pressure on TvP. Can you guys help me with some tips? When protoss make more than 1 gate begore exp, I don't know how to react properly. P.S. - I've noticed that my first push was not good. Need I to do that? Attacking when hold his poke? I'm thinking about cut widow mines and produce liberators. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6892323
Your scv scouts 2 gas 2 gates but then you just go back at home, that's a mistake.
What if it's a proxy stargate? What if he's building a msc to pylon rush as well? What if he just expands like he did?
I would keep that scv at his third for a while then come back to check if he expands at around 3.00. Meanwhile check for proxies with your 1st marine or reaper. In this case you made none, pretty greedy.
Reacting blindly to the 2 gates put you far behind, you spent 3 minutes playing safe without trying to see his followup, wasting money on an ebay + turret even though you were one base.
So your problem isn't that you don't know how to hold this kind of pressure, but that you have no clue what the hell is going on past your first scout. You can't magically deal with this guys build if you stay in the dark for 3+ minutes, especially considering your scv scout casually went back home without concerns about anything else :p
Now let's say you actually scout properly, i usually still 1 rax expand, but i put a bunker at ~2.20 at the bottom of my ramp for pylon rushes (if you scouted the msc being built, in this case because 2 gates).
If you went reaper - reactor, you should have your reaper, and the 2 first marines inside that bunker + 4 repairing scvs when the msc/stalkers arrive.
You know he's expanding behind this so after dealing with the pressure you're pretty much ahead on eco and tech, just keep scouting for follow up allins or a third from the toss.
Now say you don't see a nexus when your scv comes back at ~3 minutes. In that case you're definitely gonna want to lift up your natural CC and build another bunker at the top of your main ramp.
As for the rest of your build it really depends on what is coming, if you didn't find the proxy things might get tough.
At this point you just want to not get supply blocked and spend your money on army as much as you can (2 CC vs 1 nexus, so add an exta rax or 2 instead of scvs)
On December 07 2016 23:35 Ryu3600 wrote:
I am about to open up your replay but if I can reccomend something just open with the 2/1/1 build vs protoss and zerg its the most efficient bio build you can do and it should help you improve general marine control and timings very well
(EDIT)
Okay so the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that your macro slips a lot. Your tech is delayed your production is off and you're not making enough workers. Don't go for such an early attack I would recommend you find a timing attack / build to hit when you do your first push. As well your production cycle should have been
2 medivacs, 3 marauders 4 marines 1 tank (he was stalker heavy siege tanks rip them apart)
After you have 4 Medivacs you just make non-stop liberator. If they got Colossi or in this case voidrays you can do vikings or at 3 base add a 2nd star-port to make 4 vikings or 2 vikings 2 liberators
His macro is off and his attack "early" because he has no idea what's going on in the opposite side of the map.
He was so far behind from not scouting that the midgame/lategame part isn't as important.
Doing a pre-determined build won't help against this. Well...except when it blindly counters what your opponent may or may not be doing x)
At 3 base saturation i think you can afford an extra 2 starports to have 4 viking production asap vs colossi. Making only one then a reactor takes too long unless you swap the starport with a rax (reactor takes as long to build as a starport).
As for VRs i would just keep making medivacs instead of libs/vikings until i have ~10 medivacs, then his VRs are worthless while you're transitionning to liberator+range. Of course if it's colossi+VR, you do need vikings.
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Ty guys for the tips. So, do I need just detect what kind of rush protoss will do? Because when I noticed 2 gases, I just suppose it will be a rush and try to hold it with production of 1 raunder/2 rines + 1 mine until expand on natural. I do that because I didn't knew exactly how to hold. So, as you said, I just need to bunker, scout with the scv on protoss main and scout near my base for proxies, is it the right things to do?
When scout blink stalkers rush, I will train cicles of 1 raunder/2 rines/1 tank. Can this hold him if I expand on the normal time at natural?
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On December 08 2016 01:10 Damien wrote:
Ty guys for the tips. So, do I need just detect what kind of rush protoss will do? Because when I noticed 2 gases, I just suppose it will be a rush and try to hold it with production of 1 raunder/2 rines + 1 mine until expand on natural. I do that because I didn't knew exactly how to hold. So, as you said, I just need to bunker, scout with the scv on protoss main and scout near my base for proxies, is it the right things to do?
Uh well it depends usually I open reaper expand when I play vs protoss. By the time the reaper gets there if I see : 2 gasses I assume hes going for : Stargate, DT, Fast Blink/Glaives. If they have 2 gates being made really fast you need to make a bunker at your natural. Holding 1 Marauder and 2 marines isn't enough. You want 2 marauders 2 marines 1 tank and 1 medivac. And if you scout that there is a stargate 6 marines in the mineral field will defend it. (Or you can hide a widow mine)
As for the siege-tank put it on the highground or behind the bunker and you're fine :D (Never leave it close to the wall or it will get sniped)
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On December 08 2016 01:10 Damien wrote:
Ty guys for the tips. So, do I need just detect what kind of rush protoss will do? Because when I noticed 2 gases, I just suppose it will be a rush and try to hold it with production of 1 raunder/2 rines + 1 mine until expand on natural. I do that because I didn't knew exactly how to hold. So, as you said, I just need to bunker, scout with the scv on protoss main and scout near my base for proxies, is it the right things to do?
When scout blink stalkers rush, I will train cicles of 1 raunder/2 rines/1 tank. Can this hold him if I expand on the normal time at natural?
Learning all the things a protoss can do early game is the hardest thing in TvP imo, i can't list all the scouting and reactions you need to have, but you will have a better time if you scout like i said :
- against cyber before 2nd nexus, keep your scv somewhere at his third and comeback at ~3 minutes to ~check his natural and main
- send your 1st marine/reaper to scout for proxies
You can't blindly counter everything if all you know is that he has 2 gates and 2 gases. You don't know how to hold because you don't know what you're up against.
Stalker blink is the easiest to hold when scouted imo, spread tanks to defend, keep your bio on your main ramp if it's a map where he can blink in your main easily, then move out when you get stim if the toss makes a third.
Oh and they often go DT's after blink so get turrets/save scans when you push.
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On December 08 2016 01:24 Damien wrote:They just keeping doing ramdonly allins. It's hard to find what they are doing. I need to practice it a lot more. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6892486
On this map it's pretty hard to find a proxy, so let's assume you don't.
Your reaper sees 3 gates and no expand, that means heavy agression, so you need to lift up your main CC back to your main and make that bunker up your ramp like i mentionned previously. 2 CCs vs 1 nexus, no need to be greedy, you're not ByuN 
That means when the oracle comes in theres only one mineral line to threaten, and 6 marines are enough to defend it.
The tricky part while doing this is that you can't prevent void rays from killing your front wall, so just remake 2 supply depots asap when you see one. Rest is pretty straight forward, he can't go up that choke while you have a tank and a bunker.
Liberator is good to hold your ramp against proxy robo, but not against VR. I would have kept making mines, got stim and medivacs.
You can post your profile here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/515228-practice-partner-thread-season-5-2016
Not a lot of people there but if you're lucky you'll find a protoss to practice allins with. Add me if you want, i'm EU though, and i never did one base toss in lotv x)
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On December 08 2016 01:38 ArtyK wrote:On this map it's pretty hard to find a proxy, so let's assume you don't. Your reaper sees 3 gates and no expand, that means heavy agression, so you need to lift up your main CC back to your main and make that bunker up your ramp like i mentionned previously. 2 CCs vs 1 nexus, no need to be greedy, you're not ByuN That means when the oracle comes in theres only one mineral line to threaten, and 6 marines are enough to defend it. The tricky part while doing this is that you can't prevent void rays from killing your front wall, so just remake 2 supply depots asap when you see one. Rest is pretty straight forward, he can't go up that choke while you have a tank and a bunker. Liberator is good to hold your ramp against proxy robo, but not against VR. I would have kept making mines, got stim and medivacs. You can post your profile here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/515228-practice-partner-thread-season-5-2016Not a lot of people there but if you're lucky you'll find a protoss to practice allins with. Add me if you want, i'm EU though, and i never did one base toss in lotv x)
Oh, thank you a lot. I used to know exactly how to counter all protoss attacks on hots, but now on lotv I don't know exactly what search for, since they can do everything in no time. : /
I will search for all my TvP replays and make an analysis of those who have protoss allins.
I really apreciate your help. I was stucked on this for a long time since Lotv was launched.
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You could also study some of the TvP's that were played in IEM Gyeonggi or in recent Leifeng Cups
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On December 08 2016 05:09 Ryu3600 wrote:
You could also study some of the TvP's that were played in IEM Gyeonggi or in recent Leifeng Cups
Ty Ryu! I will search for the replays or vods to watch.
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On December 08 2016 05:30 Damien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 05:09 Ryu3600 wrote:
You could also study some of the TvP's that were played in IEM Gyeonggi or in recent Leifeng Cups Ty Ryu! I will search for the replays or vods to watch.
Go find Innovation on twitch...his name is dltlsgud2 and has a few videos up of longer streams from the new patch. Vods are good but watching wise nothing teaches you more than a good first person stream. He has a really nice two base timing attack/all in he does vs Protoss that is extremely powerful.
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How should I play TvT? I am high Silver 1, and have been playing OK, but it seems possible that the key to TvT is to get lots of liberation zones and Siege tanks set up in a defensive choke, and then wait for your opponent to attack into it. How off-base is that? I feel like Defender's advantage is much stronger in TvT than in a lot of other matchups.
My standard build tries to attack on 3 bases, around 7:30-8:00, with ~60 army units. My army comp is generally Marine/Maurader/Medivac, with a few each of Tanks, widow mines, and sometimes a few liberators. It normally goes well against Protoss and Zerg, but there are a lot of Terran matchups where I end up bashing my brains out against a few cliff tanks, and a much smaller bio-ball than I have. What would you guys suggest I do differently in TvT? I feel like taking a slower, more defensive route might be better, as then I get to be the one with the victory in defense, rather than the one bashing out my army.
I also feel like more harass-based aggression, with marine or widow mine drops, might be good, but I haven't figured out yet how to push those types of attacks while keeping in touch with my macro behind them, so I end up hurting myself just as much as my opponent. If I practice that, however, it might be a better solution than turtling.
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On December 09 2016 03:37 M0N57R0517Y wrote:
How should I play TvT? I am high Silver 1, and have been playing OK, but it seems possible that the key to TvT is to get lots of liberation zones and Siege tanks set up in a defensive choke, and then wait for your opponent to attack into it. How off-base is that? I feel like Defender's advantage is much stronger in TvT than in a lot of other matchups.
My standard build tries to attack on 3 bases, around 7:30-8:00, with ~60 army units. My army comp is generally Marine/Maurader/Medivac, with a few each of Tanks, widow mines, and sometimes a few liberators. It normally goes well against Protoss and Zerg, but there are a lot of Terran matchups where I end up bashing my brains out against a few cliff tanks, and a much smaller bio-ball than I have. What would you guys suggest I do differently in TvT? I feel like taking a slower, more defensive route might be better, as then I get to be the one with the victory in defense, rather than the one bashing out my army.
I also feel like more harass-based aggression, with marine or widow mine drops, might be good, but I haven't figured out yet how to push those types of attacks while keeping in touch with my macro behind them, so I end up hurting myself just as much as my opponent. If I practice that, however, it might be a better solution than turtling.
That's generally a pretty bad composition to go for in TvT which isn't to say it can't work at the level you are at but the standard composition of simply marine medivac tank viking is what I would consider standard when playing vs another bio Terran with a sprinkling of liberators later in the game to force unsieges so you can gain ground. When you are playing vs mech you want marine marauder medivac tank and to a lesser extent vikings in my opinion because with your need for medivacs you are very unlikely to win out in the air war and you shouldn't play passively against mech so you really need to be dropping and abusing the mobility of bio to pull your opponent apart.
Doom drops are a prime way to win games in TvT. You take a big portion of your army, load it up into medivacs, and drop it right on top of your opponents production. Making sure you have some siege tanks included is key because then you can really create an entrenched position that your opponent will trade badly with trying to break. The goal of this "doom drop" is to cripple your opponents production by destroying as many production facilities (barracks, factories, starports) as possible.
Your general game plan seems pretty strange because at silver level having a third down on location at that time already mining is exceptional so the move out at 60 army supply is generally unneeded as your macro is more than likely better than your opponent so add in a second factory after your third is mining, keep your upgrades rolling including vehicle weapons and look to move out and be aggressive when you are closer to being maxed out.
Your goal with being aggressive is to outmaneuver your opponent. It is absolutely a game of chess. Overgrowth is a good map to look at to learn how to maneuver around because of the obvious two/three (three after you've destroyed the rocks) angles into which you can assault the 2nd/3rd base. So you come from one angle and scout ahead with a single marine or a scan or a Viking to see his positioning and if you see an opening say he has way more siege tanks up near his third and not many near the natural you try and swing that way so you can siege up cutting off his third from his natural setting up a great position with which you can kill off his natural or force him to attack into your sieged up tanks. If you originally scout that avenue is too well protected then swing around to the path that goes from the fourth area to the third and if he hasn't tracked your movements well enough you may have an opening there to siege up and begin shelling the third.
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That makes a lot of sense, overgrowth is a pretty nice map to be attacking on. I have noticed that my third (and my natural) are much earlier than my opponents. One of my friends is Masters 1 Terran, and I've been trying to learn good habits from him. Based on what you said, I can just let my macro advantage build up, and then when I am roughly maxed, he won't be, and I can storm in? Is that the correct ELI5 understanding? I will try dropping more, that may well be the answer to some or all of these problems. Thanks for your help. Anything else I should know, about this matchup or general play?
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On December 09 2016 09:07 M0N57R0517Y wrote:
That makes a lot of sense, overgrowth is a pretty nice map to be attacking on. I have noticed that my third (and my natural) are much earlier than my opponents. One of my friends is Masters 1 Terran, and I've been trying to learn good habits from him. Based on what you said, I can just let my macro advantage build up, and then when I am roughly maxed, he won't be, and I can storm in? Is that the correct ELI5 understanding? I will try dropping more, that may well be the answer to some or all of these problems. Thanks for your help. Anything else I should know, about this matchup or general play?
I'm surprised you play such a weird TvT composition when you have a Masters level friend who you watch play...does he regularly go Marine marauder mine tank in TvT?
And no that's not the correct ELI5 explanation. I said that marine tank vs marine tank is a chess match. Storming in is exactly why you lose TvT's because the defenders advantage is so great. It's like randomly throwing your queen onto the opponents side of the board without knowing it is safe from attack without any back up. I'm a Masters player as well and sure I could a-move pretty easily through a silver, gold, and platinum player but good macro only gets you so far. Now is the time to build good habits so you can really jump forward with your level of play. So yeah you should play a bit more passively when you know your economy is way ahead until the economic advantage culminates in an army advantage but that doesn't mean you brute force your way in. You tactfully destroy them through doom drops to destroy production or through superior army movement to isolate bases.
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Ahh. That makes much more sense. The masters friend generally pushes me towards Marine/Medivac, I end up building factory units and mauraders out of some personal sense of "balanced comp" which is probably unhelpful. I'll work on drops for a while, hopefully that will help. Thanks for your help, sorry if I'm a bit ignorant.
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On December 09 2016 11:26 M0N57R0517Y wrote:
Ahh. That makes much more sense. The masters friend generally pushes me towards Marine/Medivac, I end up building factory units and mauraders out of some personal sense of "balanced comp" which is probably unhelpful. I'll work on drops for a while, hopefully that will help. Thanks for your help, sorry if I'm a bit ignorant.
Start doing this every TvT
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/41668/
your goal is generally to work on your unit compositions and learning the control air and abuse tanks. In TvT if you win the air battle your tanks are virtually unbreakable. Now at the start this build pushes for some hard banshee micro as it can do a lot and it hits quite early. In your case its fine to not stress over it. Wait until you're diamond or higher before you stress the banshee micro :D aside from that just focus on :
1. Air Control (Having more vikings than the other dude)
2. Abusing tanks (Having your vikings give the tanks that extra range they need to push
3. Using Marine Tank Viking effectively.
4. Dropping with marines where they cannot defend. (EX: say they're defending a 4th base or 3rd base take a small drop and pull units out to the main or natural)
5. Macro (Honestly this should be practiced every game. Macro is important but in TvT decision making prevails)
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Hmm... I will test out this build. Thanks! This seems like a much better, more polished version of what I was kinda thinking of, thanks for having something I can understand both the play and the strength of.
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If you go mech what is the correct number or production facilities on 3 base?
I usually have the following setup:
5 Factories (4 Tech, 1 Reactor)
1 Starport (1 Reactor)
However I have found that bio players often try to negate my tank investment by investing into mass viking/liberator so I am thinking of changing the setup to the following on 3 bases:
4 Factories (3 Tech, 1 Reactor)
2 Starport (2 Reactor).
What is the right move here?
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Depends on the matchup, your style, and the enemy's composition, but I'd recommend focusing on macroing on 3fact (2tech) even on 3base. Unless you're trying to hit a specific timing attack you usually don't need the extra units, and therefore don't need the extra factories immediately.
This extra gas goes into constant port production (reactor vikings and some medics tvt, liberators and medics tvz/tvp, etc), an earlier second armory for upgrades (can allow faster armour upgrades, or earlier ship attack upgrades, scenario-specific), ghost production and research (essential tvp, still useful or even important tvt/tvz, albeit possibly at later timings), and extra starports.
In tvt extra ports are important to ensure you lead in vikings, and then to get cloaked banshees or liberators to further make use of your air-control. In tvz and tvp extra ports are essential for reacting to their mid-lategame tech switches (ultra/brood tvz, colos/tempest/carrier tvp).
Extra minerals from being on 3fact go to turret rings, turret pushes with attacks, sensor towers, extra ccs for expansions, extra orbitals, or positional planetary fortresses.
If you aren't trading frequently with your opponent you don't usually need extra production capacity until you're maxing. Additionally, if you feel the need to make more factories, sometimes you need a second reactor factory if you're trading a lot of hellions for worker harass, army position/composition scouting, or t1 unit trading (lings/marines usually).
Regardless of what decision you make, especially in tvt, focus on maintaining constant unit production before going above 3fact. 2tank 2hellion 2viking constant production without interrupting your vehicle attack upgrade progression is crucial to defending the inevitable multi-pronged aggression from bio. Personally, if I'm meching I rarely add a 2nd reactor port-- I'd rather add 2 techlab ports even if they're just making viking/medic/liberator to leave open the option to quickly add cloaked banshees, ravens, or even battlecruisers, depending on the scenario and game length.
In tvt, if your production is constant and you develop excess resources (especially as you take your 4th), you can go to 5fact with 4 techlabs, per your usual setup. Definitely don't add more factories than that before adding extra ports, even if you don't feel compelled to use them yet. Your hellion movement and scans should let you know if they're pumping vikings on 2reactorport, against which you should add ports before factories for sure.
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EPT
