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On November 25 2016 05:19 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2016 03:33 MrGrizzle wrote:
Has anyone got a BO for TvP mech yet? I'm starting to play it and it's really fun but it's tough getting the right composition. Not won a single game yet. Advice would also be appreciated.
Cyclones are good vs stalkers, not vs much else, but toss frequently goes a lot of stalkers
Hellbats are a good mineral sink and can transform for harass, although I haven't done that enough yet
Tanks are difficult to get to work, I think I need to get better engagements but that will come with time.
Libs are strong, as always, and you can have better upgrades for them than you would with bio builds, but extremely gas heavy, gas you want to be spending on siege tanks too.
If they go skytoss, whats a good answer? Some mixture of thors and vikings? Maybe libs.
Widow mines might have a place, banshees? Dare I say it... BCs now they wont just get fedback. Their range is still kinda short but yamato could potentially be strong and I want to do some cool teleport moves.
I'm sorry these are just random thoughts I'm putting out mostly, would like to hear from someone else who has been trying to get TvP mech to work post-patch. BCs are good vs air, yamato the shit out of them and blink out if things get dire. I have more problems with early game, defending oracles/phoenix/WP is next to imposible with new cyclones, thors are too expensive and vikings just don't cut it, the only way I see is getting turrets but that slows down any attack you try to do.
I mean you can still open something like a marine mine drop, and leave mine in base against early oracle. None of the old openings are less effective, unless you were absolutely counting on a tankevac. Many tvp tech openings greatly delayed stim as is; and you can easily transition them into mech by simply not getting stim or +1 infantry attack. Cyclones weren't necessary to defend last patch anyway, they were just situationally nice when you wanted the potential to apply some pressure without a medic.
In WoL you could open mech tvp with cloaked banshee, marine/tank into thor, or reactor hellion. Banshee for sure is still solid, because even though thanks to overcharge you're probably going to damage protoss less, it's still useful for defending if needed and scouting out protoss' tech route and expansion timings so you can react appropriately.
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Just want to add something that I've noticed from my last game.
Y'know how they gave speed banelings +5hp making it 40, then they changed siege tank damage to 40 too. Fair enough, I hear you say, we can still 1shot them.
Except, if they get baneling speed AND +1 armour before you get +1 vehicle attack, you won't! This is a travesty!
I think this basically means that you have to build your armory early and get that +1 vehicle attack early if you want to be 1shotting those banelings. Just something to think about, I'm going to alter my build order for this, that's for sure.
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I think most of the time your marine/hellion/cyclone fire or tank/hellion incidental splash will make up the remaining 2 hp (1 from armour 1 from regen).
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Two questions:
Is there something reliable vs mass cyclone early game TvT?
What's your best build order to go masse cyclone. Unit is pretty expensive early on especially gas wise and all my attempts are really suboptimal atm.
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On November 25 2016 08:37 MrGrizzle wrote:
Just want to add something that I've noticed from my last game.
Y'know how they gave speed banelings +5hp making it 40, then they changed siege tank damage to 40 too. Fair enough, I hear you say, we can still 1shot them.
Except, if they get baneling speed AND +1 armour before you get +1 vehicle attack, you won't! This is a travesty!
I think this basically means that you have to build your armory early and get that +1 vehicle attack early if you want to be 1shotting those banelings. Just something to think about, I'm going to alter my build order for this, that's for sure.
I think you misjudge the timing of the bane speed upgrade.
We can think of the lair as terran armory, as even if you go bio it is necessary to get +2 for the bio just as the lair is necessary to get +2 for the ling bane.
Lair is also necessary for the bane speed, so it just means you have to start vehicle weapon as soon as your armory finishes, so the bane speed (and health increase) won't make the tank 2 shoot them rather then 1 shoot them.
Vehicle weapon for the tanks is also important because without it tanks 3 shoot hydras, while +1 vehicle weapon takes it down to 2 shoot (even if the hydras have carapace upgrades).
My main is Zerg and meanwhile I make Hydra ling bane work vs bio.many times, although if I'm too greedy a 2 base tank marine push kills me (I don't have bane speed or hydra range by then).
I guess bio quite remains as it was before the patch, it is mobile, very strong in the early and mid game, but late game becomes more difficult.
While mech its quite the other way around.
Just as half a year ago I was looking for all the all-ins and other terran aggression in the mid game so that I can stop that and get to the late game when it becomes easier (unless the terran opponent knows how to play late game bio, there are some on the ladder). I guess mech people will have to do the same, check how can they survive till the late game, where their army becomes very strong.
For those who are afraid of vipers, there are 2 solutions (I encountered 1 on the ladder since the patch, and another playing on the balance test map before the batch):
1. make your thors prioritize single air units (they can switch from one mode to the other), I can't mass abduct without losing a large portion of my army as well as the vipers (which are gas heavy).
2. make ghosts and snipe the vipers. Ghosts don't need the bio upgrade, so they can work with mech as well. The abduct micro is intensive just as the snipe micro.
In other words, meanwhile my impression is that well managed late game mech army is viable just as late game zerg army was vs bio in the previous patch. Getting to it is hard, just as it was for the zerg before the patch.
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On November 25 2016 10:21 imre wrote:
Two questions:
Is there something reliable vs mass cyclone early game TvT?
What's your best build order to go masse cyclone. Unit is pretty expensive early on especially gas wise and all my attempts are really suboptimal atm.
I can only answer the first question because i don't like to play cyclones myself but for me getting a bunker + rushing out a tank works nicely. I then get a banshee after that because if he goes mass cyclone his starport is likely to be delayed.
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On November 25 2016 06:49 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2016 05:19 Lexender wrote:On November 25 2016 03:33 MrGrizzle wrote:
Has anyone got a BO for TvP mech yet? I'm starting to play it and it's really fun but it's tough getting the right composition. Not won a single game yet. Advice would also be appreciated.
Cyclones are good vs stalkers, not vs much else, but toss frequently goes a lot of stalkers
Hellbats are a good mineral sink and can transform for harass, although I haven't done that enough yet
Tanks are difficult to get to work, I think I need to get better engagements but that will come with time.
Libs are strong, as always, and you can have better upgrades for them than you would with bio builds, but extremely gas heavy, gas you want to be spending on siege tanks too.
If they go skytoss, whats a good answer? Some mixture of thors and vikings? Maybe libs.
Widow mines might have a place, banshees? Dare I say it... BCs now they wont just get fedback. Their range is still kinda short but yamato could potentially be strong and I want to do some cool teleport moves.
I'm sorry these are just random thoughts I'm putting out mostly, would like to hear from someone else who has been trying to get TvP mech to work post-patch. BCs are good vs air, yamato the shit out of them and blink out if things get dire. I have more problems with early game, defending oracles/phoenix/WP is next to imposible with new cyclones, thors are too expensive and vikings just don't cut it, the only way I see is getting turrets but that slows down any attack you try to do. I mean you can still open something like a marine mine drop, and leave mine in base against early oracle. None of the old openings are less effective, unless you were absolutely counting on a tankevac. Many tvp tech openings greatly delayed stim as is; and you can easily transition them into mech by simply not getting stim or +1 infantry attack. Cyclones weren't necessary to defend last patch anyway, they were just situationally nice when you wanted the potential to apply some pressure without a medic. In WoL you could open mech tvp with cloaked banshee, marine/tank into thor, or reactor hellion. Banshee for sure is still solid, because even though thanks to overcharge you're probably going to damage protoss less, it's still useful for defending if needed and scouting out protoss' tech route and expansion timings so you can react appropriately.
Uh what? A lot of the openings that relied on the great defensive ability of the Cyclone were severely hamstrung.
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Yeah you can't go herp derp cc cyclone and defend literally everything anymore. That was terrible design. But you never needed to use builds like that anyway. From what I saw it was never the most popular opening anyway, so there shouldn't have been too much fallout when the patch removed it.
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Hey humans, please hear me out before you shoot me! I used to be zerg, but I want to defect to your faction! I haven't touched Starcraft since HotS ended, I was a diamond scrub zerg back then, but with a new expansion I'd like to actually learn a new race properly  I've been looking around for some good basic builds to practice, since obviously everything I knew about terran before is outdated. Do you have tips on some solid, middle of the road macro-focused builds, I'm thinking one for each matchup, that I can practice with the AI first and try to hit benchmarks etc. to build up mechanics? I've been looking online but I mostly find very specific builds that I don't think are good general practice. I'd appreciate the help!
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On November 26 2016 17:47 Vaftrudner wrote:Hey humans, please hear me out before you shoot me! I used to be zerg, but I want to defect to your faction! I haven't touched Starcraft since HotS ended, I was a diamond scrub zerg back then, but with a new expansion I'd like to actually learn a new race properly I've been looking around for some good basic builds to practice, since obviously everything I knew about terran before is outdated. Do you have tips on some solid, middle of the road macro-focused builds, I'm thinking one for each matchup, that I can practice with the AI first and try to hit benchmarks etc. to build up mechanics? I've been looking online but I mostly find very specific builds that I don't think are good general practice. I'd appreciate the help!
Switching from Zerg to Terran?
Crazy.
Anyways, on to your question regarding build orders. So the "problem" is that there was a HUGE balance patch released on Tuesday which shook up everything, so builds that worked earlier this season may not be optimal now. Apologizes if you already knew about the balance patch, but I'm just making sure.
That said, I'm sure some of the older builds will work not, though they might not be the "best". Before this patch the standard (I think, I could be way off on this) was to play Bio in all three match ups. Yes deviation existed in the builds depending on the race you played against, but I think for the most part it was similar across the board. I actually haven't really played Bio since Wings of Liberty, so take my answer with a grain of salt.
I think now you can still play Bio in all the match ups, though a lot of people have been trying to get mech to work in all three match ups. I'm not sure how successful they are, if only for the reason that the patch is still new and I don't think anyone truly has anything figured out yet. So now's a good time to just experiment as far as mech (or even bio) builds go because right now it's like the wild west.
I'll share my notes on build orders. Hopefully they'll be of some use, though typically I focus less on the build order and more on my game plan. I should also mention that I only really play mech, so keep that in mind when you consider my observations.
- In all the match ups, it's standard to go supply depot -> barracks -> refinery. For this order of buildings you build them as soon as you can afford them. After that, that's when the builds become different.
- In regards to my first bullet, don't take that as dogma. That's just a general rule. If you want to be cheeky and try something like a gasless expand on a certain map, go for it. Do keep realistic expectations though - there IS a reason why "meta" builds exist. I find at the Diamond - Master level I sometimes get away with things I really shouldn't get away with. And sometimes I just die a tragic death.
- I think reaper first is standard for all match ups. The reaper gives you scouting information, which can help you figure out what build you want to do. I don't actually use reapers (because I'm a scrub), but getting at least one I would say is recommended.
I'd tell you more, but to be honest I just usually end up free balling my builds most of the time. I just ask myself "What do I want this game?" and then go from there. I also change my plan a little bit depending on what the enemy does, but for the most part I just do what I want. I typically do something like, expand into two factories, one with a tech lab and one with reactor.
I'm not really satisfied with the answer I gave you, but hopefully it helps. To anyone else reading this, if I said something that is flat out incorrect, please let me know. I don't want to be spreading misinformation.
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On November 26 2016 10:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Yeah you can't go herp derp cc cyclone and defend literally everything anymore. That was terrible design. But you never needed to use builds like that anyway. From what I saw it was never the most popular opening anyway, so there shouldn't have been too much fallout when the patch removed it.
When Protoss has so much shit that is an instant win if it shows up in your mineral line it isn't necessarily bad design. And defensive cyclones were a staple in greedy TvP which isn't the most popular play style but still something that got mixed in relatively frequently in high level TvP.
The point is that the statement that no builds became weaker unless it involved a tankivac is just wrong.
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Obviously if the cyclone got nerfed builds involving a cyclone rush got worse. I'm saying that's irrelevant, because the cyclone wasn't necessary to hold anything. The thing that makes the cyclone nerf hurt in early tvp is that the tankevac, which was important for for some follow-up 1base aggression (possibly all-in) isn't as strong a catch-all, since you can't so easily reposition the tank now. So terran lost both catch-all defenses for early game. But those all-in builds aren't that common, still manageable with good scouting and micro, and most other early aggression is still stopped with marine/mine/medic.
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Am i the only one getting seriously pissed off after this patch ?
The map pool is terrible with the new eco system.
Hydras are marines on steroids.
Carriers.
Mech feels so god damn weaker in every single matchup. If there is surely one thing Blizzard has been consistent over the years, it's managing to screw mech players so fucking hard whenever they promised a mech buff.
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Just curios, why don't you get the range upgrade for the PF by the time you set it?
Hydras outrange ordinary PFs now, but the upgrade solves this issue.
An ebay is available no matter if you play bio or mech.
I'm just curious, why don't you get the upgrade?
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I usually get the range upgrade in the interest of making my missile turrets stronger, though you're absolutely right that it helps the PF as well and makes it so they can hit back against hydralisks. And thors.
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This is the absolute worst patch ever.
I've never seen something so stupid in the history of SCII.
I beat Master II Terrans, but I can't beat Plat zergs.
Mechanically it should be an absolute no match between such a skill discrepancy, it's not normal. The amount of bullshit you can die to early game vs the amount of build we have that can pose a real threat is just… depressing. I really feel I'm playing from behind all the time since 3.8.
And what the fuck is going on with maps? They're just…
I can't even fathom… I'm really in total despair, it's probably time for me to drop SCII entirely…
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On November 28 2016 12:46 pimsc2 wrote:
This is the absolute worst patch ever.
I've never seen something so stupid in the history of SCII.
I beat Master II Terrans, but I can't beat Plat zergs.
Mechanically it should be an absolute no match between such a skill discrepancy, it's not normal. The amount of bullshit you can die to early game vs the amount of build we have that can pose a real threat is just… depressing. I really feel I'm playing from behind all the time since 3.8.
And what the fuck is going on with maps? They're just…
I can't even fathom… I'm really in total despair, it's probably time for me to drop SCII entirely…
what build are you using? it seems like the problem is with you and not with balance, TvZ is by far my best matchup on the new patch.
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On November 28 2016 14:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2016 12:46 pimsc2 wrote:
This is the absolute worst patch ever.
I've never seen something so stupid in the history of SCII.
I beat Master II Terrans, but I can't beat Plat zergs.
Mechanically it should be an absolute no match between such a skill discrepancy, it's not normal. The amount of bullshit you can die to early game vs the amount of build we have that can pose a real threat is just… depressing. I really feel I'm playing from behind all the time since 3.8.
And what the fuck is going on with maps? They're just…
I can't even fathom… I'm really in total despair, it's probably time for me to drop SCII entirely… what build are you using? it seems like the problem is with you and not with balance, TvZ is by far my best matchup on the new patch.
ya funny i seem to do better vs zerg after the new patch... with 1 early defensive siege tank i didnt ndie to any early pushes zergs thrown at me so far...
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An important question is "do you play mech?"
If yes, you're going to be in a rough spot anw until something changes,either a miracle build coming up or a balance change to make hydra/viper more manageable
On the other hand, bio:tank looks quite good
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EPT
