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On August 23 2016 21:06 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2016 20:39 oGoZenob wrote:On August 23 2016 16:02 SHODAN wrote:
anyone else experimenting with cyclone-based mech in TvZ?
I posted a few months ago about my 8 factory cyclone/hellion/mine style. I'm really pleased to see that INoVation and the other SKT terrans are now experimenting with cyclones. I think it is easily the most overlooked and powerful unit in TvZ.
I'm high master, 30% winrate vP, 56% vT, 71% vZ. I'm often beating zergs way above my MMR.
typical build order:
gas
barracks
reaper
cc
factory
reactor
cc
factory #2 + techlab
gas #2
hellions x2 (continuous)
cyclone + mag-field
gas #3 and #4
factory #3 (reactor) and #4 (techlab)
armory
gas #5 and #6
+1 vehicle armor
factory #5 (reactor), #6 (techlab), #7 (techlab) (#8 later, when 4th cc is almost ready)
this amount of production allows you to be relentless with the aggression. pain train of hellions, mines and cyclones. it's a very fast and swarmy style. it lends itself well to multi-pronged attacks, parade pushing and constant army trades. it is especially effective on maps like Frozen Temple with multiple attack routes.
I can afford 8 factories because I delay the 2nd armory and skip the starport entirely. I upgrade armor only because cyclones/mines use spell damage, while the hellions are mainly for soaking damage while I kite and burrow. the only time I make a starport is in response to roach/nydus all-ins (tankivacs).
the only way zerg can trade equally against cyclone/hellion/mine is with viper abducts or lucky fungals. otherwise, the only hard counter is brood lords. I really want to see that in action. Any replays to share ? I played this one earlier this morning. not my finest performance, but it shows the general strategy and tactics: http://drop.sc/replay/3593347the zerg took his 5th at 8 o'clock. this is a very smart move because it means he only has to control the left corridor. if he took the 5th in the middle at 3 o'clock, he would have to defend the left and right. his 4th and 5th would be exposed to multi-pronged attacks. you see, roach/hydra/viper is strong in a deathball, but weak when split up. ideally, I would want to split my cyclone/mine/hellion army in 2 pincer groups and poke him from left and right. my main aim is to trade constantly. in the long run, 8 factory cyclone/mine/hellion trades more efficiently than any zerg ground army. my army is also easier to micro, so the constant battles are more stressful for the zerg player... detecting mines, sniping mines, abducts, spells. all I have to do is kite and burrow. the more time spent fighting, the more zerg will make mistakes. I probably should have made 2 or 3 tanks to really lock down my 5th cc and provide cover for my retreating cyclones. I was very careless with my cyclones here... so just try to imagine how strong it might be with good micro  you could say this is a spiritual successor to marine/mine parade pushes from the beginning of HotS... except this time, with pure factory units. back then, terrans hammered zerg's 4th base or died trying. this time you want to bring down the 5th base (or the 4th while he is defending the 5th).
WIth your current build order of taking such a fast 3rd cc, you expose yourself to fast 4:30 nydus rush's and 2 base mutalisk harassment
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On August 24 2016 01:48 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2016 21:06 SHODAN wrote:On August 23 2016 20:39 oGoZenob wrote:On August 23 2016 16:02 SHODAN wrote:
anyone else experimenting with cyclone-based mech in TvZ?
I posted a few months ago about my 8 factory cyclone/hellion/mine style. I'm really pleased to see that INoVation and the other SKT terrans are now experimenting with cyclones. I think it is easily the most overlooked and powerful unit in TvZ.
I'm high master, 30% winrate vP, 56% vT, 71% vZ. I'm often beating zergs way above my MMR.
typical build order:
gas
barracks
reaper
cc
factory
reactor
cc
factory #2 + techlab
gas #2
hellions x2 (continuous)
cyclone + mag-field
gas #3 and #4
factory #3 (reactor) and #4 (techlab)
armory
gas #5 and #6
+1 vehicle armor
factory #5 (reactor), #6 (techlab), #7 (techlab) (#8 later, when 4th cc is almost ready)
this amount of production allows you to be relentless with the aggression. pain train of hellions, mines and cyclones. it's a very fast and swarmy style. it lends itself well to multi-pronged attacks, parade pushing and constant army trades. it is especially effective on maps like Frozen Temple with multiple attack routes.
I can afford 8 factories because I delay the 2nd armory and skip the starport entirely. I upgrade armor only because cyclones/mines use spell damage, while the hellions are mainly for soaking damage while I kite and burrow. the only time I make a starport is in response to roach/nydus all-ins (tankivacs).
the only way zerg can trade equally against cyclone/hellion/mine is with viper abducts or lucky fungals. otherwise, the only hard counter is brood lords. I really want to see that in action. Any replays to share ? I played this one earlier this morning. not my finest performance, but it shows the general strategy and tactics: http://drop.sc/replay/3593347the zerg took his 5th at 8 o'clock. this is a very smart move because it means he only has to control the left corridor. if he took the 5th in the middle at 3 o'clock, he would have to defend the left and right. his 4th and 5th would be exposed to multi-pronged attacks. you see, roach/hydra/viper is strong in a deathball, but weak when split up. ideally, I would want to split my cyclone/mine/hellion army in 2 pincer groups and poke him from left and right. my main aim is to trade constantly. in the long run, 8 factory cyclone/mine/hellion trades more efficiently than any zerg ground army. my army is also easier to micro, so the constant battles are more stressful for the zerg player... detecting mines, sniping mines, abducts, spells. all I have to do is kite and burrow. the more time spent fighting, the more zerg will make mistakes. I probably should have made 2 or 3 tanks to really lock down my 5th cc and provide cover for my retreating cyclones. I was very careless with my cyclones here... so just try to imagine how strong it might be with good micro you could say this is a spiritual successor to marine/mine parade pushes from the beginning of HotS... except this time, with pure factory units. back then, terrans hammered zerg's 4th base or died trying. this time you want to bring down the 5th base (or the 4th while he is defending the 5th). WIth your current build order of taking such a fast 3rd cc, you expose yourself to fast 4:30 nydus rush's and 2 base mutalisk harassment
It's just a general b/o. what adjustments do you suggest?
the reaper and first 2 hellions can help spot a 2-base play. I usually suicide the first 2 hellions for drones if I don't see enough speedlings. the reaper can grenade any queens that might be blocking the ramp, then the hellions can run in and have a look.
ideally, against a 2-base nydus, I would want my 2nd gas, 2nd factory and starport (for tankivacs) before 3rd cc. I'm less concerned about 2-base mutas honestly (x2 mines, x1 cyclone, turrets).
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how do i have to play if i open double medivac stim vs 2 base muta? I feel like if i drop those marines i die to the 20 lings and the 10 mutas, if i dont drop he gets massively ahead. Overall it looks like that BO doesn't work any more.
I always lose a lot of the initial marines. That is indeed a huge problem, how do i micro this vs speedling queen? I see Byun defeat 40 speedlings with this drop with ease, so i know it is possible. But i lose vs 20 and some queens already a ton of those marines which is rly bad. And yes i try to stutterstep, but i am no way near ByuN's level of control, i just dont know how exactly to do it like him
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On August 28 2016 00:17 AleXusher wrote:
how do i have to play if i open double medivac stim vs 2 base muta? I feel like if i drop those marines i die to the 20 lings and the 10 mutas, if i dont drop he gets massively ahead. Overall it looks like that BO doesn't work any more.
I always lose a lot of the initial marines. That is indeed a huge problem, how do i micro this vs speedling queen? I see Byun defeat 40 speedlings with this drop with ease, so i know it is possible. But i lose vs 20 and some queens already a ton of those marines which is rly bad. And yes i try to stutterstep, but i am no way near ByuN's level of control, i just dont know how exactly to do it like him
Wait, they have 10 mutas 20 speedlings when your drop hits? this is scary af...
Anyway, in the lack of a 3rd base for the zerg, you probably shouldn't commit you marines, and play a more defensive mode (cause other than mutas a lot of nasty things can happen : imagine you get baneling busted while your marines are away...)
What you should do is poke a bit, see what's up, kill a couple of creep tumors and that's it.
Anyway, nowadays, zerg defend the double stim drop pretty effectively, even when they do have a third, so it's not likely that you'd get critical damage with the initial drop (of course it can still happen). Best thing atm is to not commit to much, drop outside of the zerg's vision's range, stim in, kill what you can kill before his queens and army show up and they move away and wait for a better window.
See INnoVation's run at shoutcraft kings july : his initial drop is just to test the water, the real push comes when he has 2 tanks and 4 medivacs...
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On August 28 2016 00:17 AleXusher wrote:
how do i have to play if i open double medivac stim vs 2 base muta? I feel like if i drop those marines i die to the 20 lings and the 10 mutas, if i dont drop he gets massively ahead. Overall it looks like that BO doesn't work any more.
I always lose a lot of the initial marines. That is indeed a huge problem, how do i micro this vs speedling queen? I see Byun defeat 40 speedlings with this drop with ease, so i know it is possible. But i lose vs 20 and some queens already a ton of those marines which is rly bad. And yes i try to stutterstep, but i am no way near ByuN's level of control, i just dont know how exactly to do it like him
What time did you hit the timing?
At 5:00, I doubt Zerg can have 10 Mutalisks and 20 Zerglings without doing some major sacrifices on other areas. If Zerg do not take a third Hatchery, you probably should not continue with the timing attack at 5:00.
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Hi fellow SC2 players.
I have been playing SC2 on and off for a couple of years now but never really played it too seriously. I have been really enjoying the LOTV expansion and now playing more often.
I would like to improve my Tvall overall game and need your suggestions to help improve my game.
Here are some replays for every matchup:
TvT www.drop.sc
TvP www.drop.sc
TvZ www.drop.sc
Thanks. 
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@ INFERNO1
August 29 2016 19:47 CEST #
As diamond 2 player:
T:T
you lost your scout to marine, and lost scv that was building CC. When u saw marine you could use reaper to scout a little bit more.
4:00 build scv!. You doing nothing requiring attention meanwhile ;p
I like hellion harras, maybe if not that tank. With your opener i go banchee, but this looks interesting.
@4 min you have few minerals 150-600. From my experience its vey important time. You should do rines using rax with your reactor. Many times i died after my harras like this (rines in medi, or hells or banchee) because of lack of unit at counter attack.
banche defense: banchees are common in diamond. In my build i go banchee asap (2x with cloak - 2nd gas after factory starts is enough for this), then i move factory to tech lab and starport to reactor and make 1 viking (+medi for tank). Pros are doing 1 cyclone also.
8:00 good rines sending. I always do it when i move out especially to see where is opponent.
9:00 well, bad spot... Sitations like it happens in TvT.When you had 2 vikings (or if you had them earlier xD) you should get air dominance and place your tanks in range of him but you have better vision. Micro your meditanks like crazy and predict if he will kill your tanks in your choosen spot to place tanks. Its hard but looks like the only way to defend it.
TvP
why you sending 5 scv to natural? T uses scv to build buildings in main and 16-18 scv in main is ok. Especially that you dont know toss next move, if he goes oracle its always better to have most of scv in main. (Ofc i send scv when i have 16+ to natural but maybe a little bit later  )
3:20 scv production stop. When you scout its hard to build new rax, but its not problem to build few more scv.
You could scout a liitle bit more, but i know its hard with this stupid OC ;p
damn 3:50 you still not building scv. IMO harrasing toss without medis ends bad (you can use 2-4 hells if you want not use medis). OK i see medis was there, but still toss can run into your natural with crazy shit like oracle. In TvP im fking agressive and most of times i lose all my army
And after
7:50 maaaacroo
10:50 too many scv in main. No scv production. You starting having big troubles on 3 bases.
8 idle scv - very bad. only 5 rax atm. Every 2 base allin would kill you with 5 raxes, its really important to care about production when you take 3rd base [n/a this game]
12:00 yup dont move all your army to few adepts.
Final push: when you dont see any AoE damage just roll him over No need to stim marines to death.
Conclusion: bad macro, maybe add 1/2 viking to chase possible warpprism. In TvP i like to add 2nd factory with tech lab to get fast burrow mines. it helps me vs adepts and zealots.
And ofc since midgame add liberators like you did. I've learnt its necessary ;/
TvZ:
Heh my opener ;p but i add armory for hellbats (6) to snipe 3rd, banchee followup -> 2nd banche and tank defense with my 3rd.
He made enough lings, if only u built scv you could be ahead.
Good bacheee control (not me xD) with hellion harras at the same time is very effective. But better build scv...
Your building almost killed your third. Replace them in future. You were lucky with those thors.
While taking your 3rd there you should have 1 tank on ramp near 3rd and army ready to move out, or w8 on 3rd (often ling harras).
wtf was this zerg xD
So build scv, i hope i helped a lot gl
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Anyone knows/got some "fancy" builds?I´m just looking for some nonmeta Builds,for example things like ruff does.I just dont like following the standart builds.Anyone got an idea?^^
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Hey there, how do you deal best with Zerg that stick with Ling Bane Queen into potential Corruptor and finally BL or Ultralisks? Most of the time i straight lose to the massive amout of ling bling. In HotS it helped to go MMMM but nowadays i feel like i am always behind. I wont find real dmg vs the queens and the spores with my drops, and eventually he just moves across the map and wins. WMs doesn't seem to cut it either, most of the time they deal friendly fire to my own army instead of getting the good shots on the lings and banes i desperatively need to win the fights. I tried polts HotS style with 3 fax for WMs, i tried Hellbats and i tried only bio, but nothing works for me.
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On August 30 2016 02:47 INFERNO1 wrote:Hi fellow SC2 players. I have been playing SC2 on and off for a couple of years now but never really played it too seriously. I have been really enjoying the LOTV expansion and now playing more often. I would like to improve my Tvall overall game and need your suggestions to help improve my game. Here are some replays for every matchup: TvT www.drop.scTvP www.drop.scTvZ www.drop.scThanks.
first of all you should start looking into replays from lost games and analyse those... replays from games you have won doesnt tell us were ur weakness is...
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On August 31 2016 18:25 AleXusher wrote:
Hey there, how do you deal best with Zerg that stick with Ling Bane Queen into potential Corruptor and finally BL or Ultralisks? Most of the time i straight lose to the massive amout of ling bling. In HotS it helped to go MMMM but nowadays i feel like i am always behind. I wont find real dmg vs the queens and the spores with my drops, and eventually he just moves across the map and wins. WMs doesn't seem to cut it either, most of the time they deal friendly fire to my own army instead of getting the good shots on the lings and banes i desperatively need to win the fights. I tried polts HotS style with 3 fax for WMs, i tried Hellbats and i tried only bio, but nothing works for me.
if you're already losing to the initial ling bane you're definitely doing something wrong. a replay would help
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i lost to ling bane in the long run so... that's that. maybe i can post some replays later, i sure have ltos of issues
here for example a game:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6785543
it wont rly help me to know my mistakes, instead i need to know what unit comp do i need? How do i need to react and adapt? How basically do i have to play? vs Ling Bane only? This style is SO strong in LotV. While in HotS it wasn't any near viable, in LotV however it is, i would say, the BEST Style Zerg can play nowadays.
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On September 01 2016 00:50 AleXusher wrote:
i lost to ling bane in the long run so... that's that. maybe i can post some replays later, i sure have ltos of issues
here for example a game:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6785543
it wont rly help me to know my mistakes, instead i need to know what unit comp do i need? How do i need to react and adapt? How basically do i have to play? vs Ling Bane only? This style is SO strong in LotV. While in HotS it wasn't any near viable, in LotV however it is, i would say, the BEST Style Zerg can play nowadays.
first off your initial pressure with the 16 marine drop was very bad. you traded all your marines and 1 medivac for a bunch of lings and drones and killed 0 creep tumors. you don't want to drop the third like that it's better to just unload right in front of the creep then stim in kill the creep tumors and kite backwards if he attacks you with zerglings and pick up with medivacs if necessary.
but the most important thing is that you need to work on making depots. at 101 supply you were supply blocked for 45 seconds before noticing it and then you made a single depot - and then you were supplyblocked again.
If you can't make units because you're supplyblocked it doesn't matter which composition you play.
Also you let him go up to hive and ultras without any pressure except for a few drops, generally you want to constantly push him to keep the creep spread back and force him to spend money on lower tech units.
well in this game your push would have been probably crushed because of your supply blocks but generally you want to push in the midgame.
and even despite that you would have probably still won if he hadn't caught your entire army unsieged oncreep and you handled the ling runbys a little bit better. also you lost an orbital to banelings.
with liberators you don't just unsiege all of them that close to your opponent especially not oncreep you need to be more patient.
Another thing to mention is that this was cross-spawn frost which is a nightmare for terran to play on so don't feel to bad for the loss.
for unit composition bio mine and bio tank both work in the midgame with liberators/ghosts in lategame but I don't think you should make more than 1 factory. better spend that money on either more bio units or a faster ghost/lib transition.
I'm not a fan of hellbats because they die to banelings so easily and do nothing vs the ultra transition but I guess they can be played too.
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OK, thank you for your help, so macro is still a majoy issue, and trading efficiently
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Heyjo how do i have to play vs phoenix/adept?
i've read you stay at home, macro up to a nice 2/2 timing and win. The problem is, that doesn't rly work. Toss opens up Adept/Phoenix and i go for Polts 2/1/1 into 3 medic stim timing. I will never find any dmg with this composition vs phoenix/adept. PO defense is also to handy to break with that timing.
By the time i might have a nice 2/2 bio ball together, toss either has storm or colossus out, and quite a few of those as well, so i need to go back at home again, macro to 2-3 SP for mass vikings/liberator, and wait again. If i attack i die, if i drop, i wont deal dmg due to PO, Warpin and Phoenix. And if i dont attack he just gets ahead in eco/tech/army.
So what opening do you play?
And how do you attack the composition?
Which timings do you hit?
How do you deal dmg to a toss today?
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Again, replay would be helpful.
But what I've seen a lot of pros do vs protoss is delay their natural for some 1/1/1 harass and I've read/seen the rise of max cyclone/cyclone openers but haven't played too much with those,
or you do a gumiho and go back to the TvP roots with proxy 3 rax with concusive shells and stim (he did this on dusk towers vs zest I think it was? Hard build order win)
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On September 07 2016 17:25 KonanTenshi wrote:
Again, replay would be helpful.
But what I've seen a lot of pros do vs protoss is delay their natural for some 1/1/1 harass and I've read/seen the rise of max cyclone/cyclone openers but haven't played too much with those,
or you do a gumiho and go back to the TvP roots with proxy 3 rax with concusive shells and stim (he did this on dusk towers vs zest I think it was? Hard build order win)
None of these builds are particularly good against phoenixes.
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On September 06 2016 18:46 AleXusher wrote:
Heyjo how do i have to play vs phoenix/adept?
i've read you stay at home, macro up to a nice 2/2 timing and win. The problem is, that doesn't rly work. Toss opens up Adept/Phoenix and i go for Polts 2/1/1 into 3 medic stim timing. I will never find any dmg with this composition vs phoenix/adept. PO defense is also to handy to break with that timing.
By the time i might have a nice 2/2 bio ball together, toss either has storm or colossus out, and quite a few of those as well, so i need to go back at home again, macro to 2-3 SP for mass vikings/liberator, and wait again. If i attack i die, if i drop, i wont deal dmg due to PO, Warpin and Phoenix. And if i dont attack he just gets ahead in eco/tech/army.
So what opening do you play?
And how do you attack the composition?
Which timings do you hit?
How do you deal dmg to a toss today?
Hi, for damaging a protoss doing phoenix adept, better than a long theroycraft I think you must rewatch ByuN vs Dear on Dusk tower : you basically go bio mine into liberators an find good engangement to slowly but surely get ahead. The thing is Phoenix are bad when it comes to kill liberators, they take forever. Meanwhile you have plenty of time to kill protoss' ground.
I'm not sure what you mean about "going back at home" but personnally, I prefer constant pressure, even if it's just stiming in and out and picking 2-3 units here and there. Leaving the protoss alone never does any good for me...
Last for openings, I suppose there are plenty, just avoid reaper expand if you wanna be safe IMHO, 16/16 marine expand into 2-1-1 seems the safest build atm, for you have enough marines early game to deal with any shenanigans...
(the ByuN's 211 into mine drop you can find in the redditor made terran build order list is totally fine imho (shoutout to /u/goreanddin2point0)
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@Gwavajuice
The VOD you linked doesnt show any phoenix o.o or i am blind, and the BO list is awesome ty for that
how do i have to play vs disruptor play? i see no land, yes i macroed bad and yes i was out of position, but still... how do i do anything against it?
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6795267
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EPT
