T2 master terran here, I watched the first 12 orso minutes of the game and made some notes of the game, I think these are really important factors that will play heavily in your mid-late game and should be fixed before moving into late game theory.
Low ground cc is unnescecary if you keep your reaper near your cc wierd reaper pathing, if you decide to go into the natural do it ASAP and try to see later if he has a 3rd or not, plus don't sacrafice it for 1 drone, especially when you did not see his tech or 3rd hatch yet.
you should always instantly make an orbital on your second cc, never make scvs from it.
your leaving an reactor not put to use really early on for a long time while your star port makes one him self, also starport should always get an reactor before the factory if your only going to make 2 widow mines.
WAY to early gases, 800 at 7 minutes is not acceptable, thats 5 barracks right there
I think if your lifting an cc and don't have instantly saturation, I think building it in a orbtial -> mule -> lift is the best way to go
your star port production is awefull, so many gaps in between them
Never make your 3rd cc an planitary and instead make an orbital, 4th should be ok to have as an planitary
the 2 medivac drop is quite late
Lots of units at your 3rd that has a plantary but no vision of the main attack paths into your natural
at 11 minutes you have 1.7k gas, a 4th and your only pressure has been 2 late medivcas, and at the same time you have 0 liberators and only 1 tank in your main.
Consdering your passive playstyle I would suggest watch this game, try to mimick its army movement and try to compare timings of his big push.
Ty for answer, sabas.
I started my cc on the high ground because I noticed he did his pool first than his natural, so he was about to rush me and deny my build on low ground. Isn't it right?
Yeah! You're right about the orbital on the natural. I think I didn't it faster because it will take time and it was needed to move it to natural asap. But I agree with you. It would be better to start the orbital asap.
About the reactor, I was planning to put another 2 rax on the reactors, but I commited a mistake because I thought I was already building the third base. But you're right, It would be better if I was using it.
When I know it was time to build another 2 gases?
My starport production is really bad. Do you think it was needed to produce pairs of liberators to deal with mutas? Whats is the better way to deal with it, mutas/banes/lings?
Ty for the planetary in fourth cc tip. I thought it would better to build fortress on the third.
My medivac drop was really bad because I was attacked. You're right.
I am really gratefull for your help. I will study it and try to solve the problem. I've played a game a few minutes. Do you want to see the replay? I will try to put your tips in practice right now.
Yeah, trying to expand on low ground vs pool first is a huge gamble. Definitely don't recommend trying it if you scout it early enough (which you should on most maps). It's only completely defendable if you know it's a gasless pool first and you keep your reaper at home, otherwise you're just hoping they don't make more than a couple zerglings.
Anyway, for that replay just a couple tips. Don't try to suddenly making a bunker and try wall off the entire ramp if you're that scared of aggression. If you think it's a problem, and on that map in particular with a huge ramp you won't be able to do it in time if they just flood lings in when speed finishes. Make a smaller wall that covers the ramp and extends to your CC. Much smaller so you don't sacrifice as much money investing in a wall. Would apply to other maps where natural ramp is too wide or far from natural like Galactic Process. Put the a bunker next to CC and wall off to the main ramp.
Secondly, on that map and a others where it applies, it's safer to wall off the top of your ramp by going depot-depot-Barracks, so the barracks is on the right side. That way if the ramp is on the right side, your reactor won't ever be in danger to lings or banelings.
Thirdly, obviously your mechanics are maybe the weakest part of your play. Just a few things you have to get down as routine. Like getting your second gas directly after you factory with as little delay as possible. If you delay the reactor on your barracks and just pump out 4-6 marines after the reaper, you can get a very speedy tank+medivac that's extremely safe since your dedicating all the gas to your tech units.
1-3 barracks is fine for 2base, but as soon you're taking 3 base you want to expand to at least 8 rax way way sooner than you have been. Get you 3rd+4th gases around the time you're putting down your ebays and 2nd/3rd raxes, 5 rax is the number you really want directly after you start your 3rd CC ASAP while you're keeping up with any harass, depot production, workers etc.
On August 06 2016 13:18 Nightmarjoo wrote: I just came back from a 4 year break and got caught up by watching every single GSL/SSL/Proleague game including a terran from the last GSL finals until now, using sc2casts.com, taking over nine thousand pages of notes.
considering the somewhat sad state of the op, could you maybe share some notes?
Honestly most of my notes I have already shared over my posts across the last couple weeks. Some pages of notes are lists of critiques on my own play so I know what to focus on unfucking. Some pages are lists of questions I want to find out. Some are experimental builds or strategies I want to try (most fail fantastically).
So most of the notes that would be useful are build orders, but anyone can see those by watching any game. Not to mention there are more builds that I haven't recorded than I have, and I've only focused on a limited number of them to actually practice (and therefore gain understanding over).
So if you literally want me to copy/paste all the silly stuff I wrote in notepad .txts I don't mind, I just don't think you'll get much out of them. Additionally the question kind of reminds me of the guy who in last page or the page before asked how to tvt. I can't teach everything at once and effectively convey all the necessary information. Hell, I don't even know everything-- if I did I'd be a progamer.
Hence it's easier for me to focus on answering specific questions. I can work on conveying generally all the terran lotv applicable stuff I can think of, but even just that will take a little bit.
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: I started my cc on the high ground because I noticed he did his pool first than his natural, so he was about to rush me and deny my build on low ground. Isn't it right?
If you scout it like that you can deny do so much in direct damage by defending instead of attacking him that I think its not worth it.
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: When I know it was time to build another 2 gases?
This depends on the build, but once you start making a units out of your starport its a good time for your 3rd gas, and once you have full production or start your armory is a good time for your 4th
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: My starport production is really bad. Do you think it was needed to produce pairs of liberators to deal with mutas? Whats is the better way to deal with it, mutas/banes/lings?
If he goes mass muta liberators are very good, but both are fine imo.
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: I am really gratefull for your help. I will study it and try to solve the problem. I've played a game a few minutes. Do you want to see the replay? I will try to put your tips in practice right now.
T2 master terran here, I watched the first 12 orso minutes of the game and made some notes of the game, I think these are really important factors that will play heavily in your mid-late game and should be fixed before moving into late game theory.
Low ground cc is unnescecary if you keep your reaper near your cc wierd reaper pathing, if you decide to go into the natural do it ASAP and try to see later if he has a 3rd or not, plus don't sacrafice it for 1 drone, especially when you did not see his tech or 3rd hatch yet.
you should always instantly make an orbital on your second cc, never make scvs from it.
your leaving an reactor not put to use really early on for a long time while your star port makes one him self, also starport should always get an reactor before the factory if your only going to make 2 widow mines.
WAY to early gases, 800 at 7 minutes is not acceptable, thats 5 barracks right there
I think if your lifting an cc and don't have instantly saturation, I think building it in a orbtial -> mule -> lift is the best way to go
your star port production is awefull, so many gaps in between them
Never make your 3rd cc an planitary and instead make an orbital, 4th should be ok to have as an planitary
the 2 medivac drop is quite late
Lots of units at your 3rd that has a plantary but no vision of the main attack paths into your natural
at 11 minutes you have 1.7k gas, a 4th and your only pressure has been 2 late medivcas, and at the same time you have 0 liberators and only 1 tank in your main.
Consdering your passive playstyle I would suggest watch this game, try to mimick its army movement and try to compare timings of his big push.
I started my cc on the high ground because I noticed he did his pool first than his natural, so he was about to rush me and deny my build on low ground. Isn't it right?
Yeah! You're right about the orbital on the natural. I think I didn't it faster because it will take time and it was needed to move it to natural asap. But I agree with you. It would be better to start the orbital asap.
About the reactor, I was planning to put another 2 rax on the reactors, but I commited a mistake because I thought I was already building the third base. But you're right, It would be better if I was using it.
When I know it was time to build another 2 gases?
My starport production is really bad. Do you think it was needed to produce pairs of liberators to deal with mutas? Whats is the better way to deal with it, mutas/banes/lings?
Ty for the planetary in fourth cc tip. I thought it would better to build fortress on the third.
My medivac drop was really bad because I was attacked. You're right.
I am really gratefull for your help. I will study it and try to solve the problem. I've played a game a few minutes. Do you want to see the replay? I will try to put your tips in practice right now.
Yeah, trying to expand on low ground vs pool first is a huge gamble. Definitely don't recommend trying it if you scout it early enough (which you should on most maps). It's only completely defendable if you know it's a gasless pool first and you keep your reaper at home, otherwise you're just hoping they don't make more than a couple zerglings.
Anyway, for that replay just a couple tips. Don't try to suddenly making a bunker and try wall off the entire ramp if you're that scared of aggression. If you think it's a problem, and on that map in particular with a huge ramp you won't be able to do it in time if they just flood lings in when speed finishes. Make a smaller wall that covers the ramp and extends to your CC. Much smaller so you don't sacrifice as much money investing in a wall. Would apply to other maps where natural ramp is too wide or far from natural like Galactic Process. Put the a bunker next to CC and wall off to the main ramp.
Secondly, on that map and a others where it applies, it's safer to wall off the top of your ramp by going depot-depot-Barracks, so the barracks is on the right side. That way if the ramp is on the right side, your reactor won't ever be in danger to lings or banelings.
Thirdly, obviously your mechanics are maybe the weakest part of your play. Just a few things you have to get down as routine. Like getting your second gas directly after you factory with as little delay as possible. If you delay the reactor on your barracks and just pump out 4-6 marines after the reaper, you can get a very speedy tank+medivac that's extremely safe since your dedicating all the gas to your tech units.
1-3 barracks is fine for 2base, but as soon you're taking 3 base you want to expand to at least 8 rax way way sooner than you have been. Get you 3rd+4th gases around the time you're putting down your ebays and 2nd/3rd raxes, 5 rax is the number you really want directly after you start your 3rd CC ASAP while you're keeping up with any harass, depot production, workers etc.
This speaking about as standard as you can get.
ty guys for the tips. I will practice to improve my mechanics.
Build a quicker bunker Alex, you basically lost because your bunker weren't finished in time. I've gotten the habit of always build a premature bunker in TvZ.
What's the best way to counter and defend against 3 Rax Reapers if I'm going 1 Rax FE, whether gas first or Rax first? Then once the first Marine or Reaper is finished, I start constant Marine production while I wait for the Factory to finish.
So you're asking what's the best way to defend a build while using the opening that build is strongest against? Best solution is don't do that. You have to scv scout and not make cc in your nat. If you insist on trying to fast expand make the cc in your base and make a bunker or two and try to survive. It's much easier to just go gas first reaper fact reaper hellion cc and defend. Or prepare to open 2rax reaper yourself and defend until you can safely make a cc or until your scout rules 3rax out.
On August 18 2016 12:07 geokilla wrote: What's the best way to counter and defend against 3 Rax Reapers if I'm going 1 Rax FE, whether gas first or Rax first? Then once the first Marine or Reaper is finished, I start constant Marine production while I wait for the Factory to finish.
IMO you can hold proxy reapers with a FE if you can get hellions out and some juicy shots. However, you are going to need reapers being made and not marines. Ideally a reactor with reapers is the best with hellions from the factory because you can heal and have a mine war with them. The main thing is you are never going to hold if you have 1 marine coming out at a time and waiting for hellions because they will just kill you. 3 reapers at a time vs 1 marine at a time is never going to work, but if you get some reapers out and some hellions you have more of a shot. Try to bunker up if you can, though it will be hard and avoid their mines and try to land good ones of your own. I like teching up to a banshee if I can to shut it down, though I won't invest in cloak.
On August 18 2016 12:07 geokilla wrote: What's the best way to counter and defend against 3 Rax Reapers if I'm going 1 Rax FE, whether gas first or Rax first? Then once the first Marine or Reaper is finished, I start constant Marine production while I wait for the Factory to finish.
On August 16 2016 20:20 AleXusher wrote: i rly need help vs lingflood, i scouted it, i build wall, but still he gets through... WHY?! What am i doing THAT wrong?
ur double drop build was awkward, there's should be more marines, anyway, without hellions you must leave natural and fight on main ramp behind the wall, with scvs.
On August 18 2016 12:07 geokilla wrote: What's the best way to counter and defend against 3 Rax Reapers if I'm going 1 Rax FE, whether gas first or Rax first? Then once the first Marine or Reaper is finished, I start constant Marine production while I wait for the Factory to finish.
Hey guys, how is the best way to counter that FE nexus followed by warp prism dropping addepts in terran main and shadowing my natural? I saw Polt playing a game a few days ago, protoss did it against him and he wasn't able to hold it. He tried to bunker main and natural, but even that way was not enough.
If there is only one gas taken, you should click on it and look at what time it is taken. In TvT, it's usually either 15 or 16. 16 gas is generally a fast expand build. You want to know whether it is Reaper, Marine or Reactor once the the Barracks completes. It can also be a double Barracks Reaper, and the second Barracks is hidden. Look at the timing of expansion to deduce it. 15 gas is usually either Reaper expand, or fast tech. But it can also be triple Barracks Reaper. https://terrancraft.com/2016/08/12/tvt-1516-reaper-expand-basic-framework/
Double gas is usually double Reaper with Hellion pressure into gas heavy follow up, for example, Banshee or Liberator. Three Barracks Reaper doesn't take the second gas that early for you to see it with scv in general. Technically, anything can be 1-1-1, because that's the standard convergent point.
can someone shorty explain me how i should react to 2 base tempest in TvP?
I would like to know how i should react to defeat that style. Esp if i don't scout it somehow, and only see it if he attacks with his 1st Tempest! Normally they go Oracle into Tempest, so Marines don't rly work because of the stasisward, at least it can happen that they get trapped which means you basically lost already. In HotS it was like 2nd SP and get 3 Vikings at a time, is it still like that? How, if i don't see the fleet beacon, can i be sure it is tempest play?
A big indicator could be canons at his nat, to be even more safe. I just encountered this Playstyle in Archonmode today, but i think i could face it in 1v1 as well, and not knowing how to react, is indeed bad. As i said, mass marines didn't work out for me, esp on a map like KSS where there are so many dead spaces he can use.
Also maybe someone could cover proxy tempest it is quite the same but not exactly
anyone else experimenting with cyclone-based mech in TvZ?
I posted a few months ago about my 8 factory cyclone/hellion/mine style. I'm really pleased to see that INoVation and the other SKT terrans are now experimenting with cyclones. I think it is easily the most overlooked and powerful unit in TvZ.
I'm high master, 30% winrate vP, 56% vT, 71% vZ. I'm often beating zergs way above my MMR.
typical build order:
gas barracks reaper cc factory reactor cc factory #2 + techlab gas #2 hellions x2 (continuous) cyclone + mag-field gas #3 and #4 factory #3 (reactor) and #4 (techlab) armory gas #5 and #6 +1 vehicle armor factory #5 (reactor), #6 (techlab), #7 (techlab) (#8 later, when 4th cc is almost ready)
this amount of production allows you to be relentless with the aggression. pain train of hellions, mines and cyclones. it's a very fast and swarmy style. it lends itself well to multi-pronged attacks, parade pushing and constant army trades. it is especially effective on maps like Frozen Temple with multiple attack routes.
I can afford 8 factories because I delay the 2nd armory and skip the starport entirely. I upgrade armor only because cyclones/mines use spell damage, while the hellions are mainly for soaking damage while I kite and burrow. the only time I make a starport is in response to roach/nydus all-ins (tankivacs).
the only way zerg can trade equally against cyclone/hellion/mine is with viper abducts or lucky fungals. otherwise, the only hard counter is brood lords.
On August 23 2016 16:02 SHODAN wrote: anyone else experimenting with cyclone-based mech in TvZ?
I posted a few months ago about my 8 factory cyclone/hellion/mine style. I'm really pleased to see that INoVation and the other SKT terrans are now experimenting with cyclones. I think it is easily the most overlooked and powerful unit in TvZ.
I'm high master, 30% winrate vP, 56% vT, 71% vZ. I'm often beating zergs way above my MMR.
typical build order:
gas barracks reaper cc factory reactor cc factory #2 + techlab gas #2 hellions x2 (continuous) cyclone + mag-field gas #3 and #4 factory #3 (reactor) and #4 (techlab) armory gas #5 and #6 +1 vehicle armor factory #5 (reactor), #6 (techlab), #7 (techlab) (#8 later, when 4th cc is almost ready)
this amount of production allows you to be relentless with the aggression. pain train of hellions, mines and cyclones. it's a very fast and swarmy style. it lends itself well to multi-pronged attacks, parade pushing and constant army trades. it is especially effective on maps like Frozen Temple with multiple attack routes.
I can afford 8 factories because I delay the 2nd armory and skip the starport entirely. I upgrade armor only because cyclones/mines use spell damage, while the hellions are mainly for soaking damage while I kite and burrow. the only time I make a starport is in response to roach/nydus all-ins (tankivacs).
the only way zerg can trade equally against cyclone/hellion/mine is with viper abducts or lucky fungals. otherwise, the only hard counter is brood lords.
I really want to see that in action. Any replays to share ?
On August 23 2016 16:02 SHODAN wrote: anyone else experimenting with cyclone-based mech in TvZ?
I posted a few months ago about my 8 factory cyclone/hellion/mine style. I'm really pleased to see that INoVation and the other SKT terrans are now experimenting with cyclones. I think it is easily the most overlooked and powerful unit in TvZ.
I'm high master, 30% winrate vP, 56% vT, 71% vZ. I'm often beating zergs way above my MMR.
typical build order:
gas barracks reaper cc factory reactor cc factory #2 + techlab gas #2 hellions x2 (continuous) cyclone + mag-field gas #3 and #4 factory #3 (reactor) and #4 (techlab) armory gas #5 and #6 +1 vehicle armor factory #5 (reactor), #6 (techlab), #7 (techlab) (#8 later, when 4th cc is almost ready)
this amount of production allows you to be relentless with the aggression. pain train of hellions, mines and cyclones. it's a very fast and swarmy style. it lends itself well to multi-pronged attacks, parade pushing and constant army trades. it is especially effective on maps like Frozen Temple with multiple attack routes.
I can afford 8 factories because I delay the 2nd armory and skip the starport entirely. I upgrade armor only because cyclones/mines use spell damage, while the hellions are mainly for soaking damage while I kite and burrow. the only time I make a starport is in response to roach/nydus all-ins (tankivacs).
the only way zerg can trade equally against cyclone/hellion/mine is with viper abducts or lucky fungals. otherwise, the only hard counter is brood lords.
I really want to see that in action. Any replays to share ?
I played this one earlier this morning. not my finest performance, but it shows the general strategy and tactics:
the zerg took his 5th at 8 o'clock. this is a very smart move because it means he only has to control the left corridor. if he took the 5th in the middle at 3 o'clock, he would have to defend the left and right. his 4th and 5th would be exposed to multi-pronged attacks. you see, roach/hydra/viper is strong in a deathball, but weak when split up. ideally, I would want to split my cyclone/mine/hellion army in 2 pincer groups and poke him from left and right.
my main aim is to trade constantly. in the long run, 8 factory cyclone/mine/hellion trades more efficiently than any zerg ground army. my army is also easier to micro, so the constant battles are more stressful for the zerg player... detecting mines, sniping mines, abducts, spells. all I have to do is kite and burrow. the more time spent fighting, the more zerg will make mistakes.
I probably should have made 2 or 3 tanks to really lock down my 5th cc and provide cover for my retreating cyclones. I was very careless with my cyclones here... so just try to imagine how strong it might be with good micro
you could say this is a spiritual successor to marine/mine parade pushes from the beginning of HotS... except this time, with pure factory units. back then, terrans hammered zerg's 4th base or died trying. this time you want to bring down the 5th base (or the 4th while he is defending the 5th).
On August 23 2016 16:02 SHODAN wrote: anyone else experimenting with cyclone-based mech in TvZ?
I posted a few months ago about my 8 factory cyclone/hellion/mine style. I'm really pleased to see that INoVation and the other SKT terrans are now experimenting with cyclones. I think it is easily the most overlooked and powerful unit in TvZ.
I'm high master, 30% winrate vP, 56% vT, 71% vZ. I'm often beating zergs way above my MMR.
typical build order:
gas barracks reaper cc factory reactor cc factory #2 + techlab gas #2 hellions x2 (continuous) cyclone + mag-field gas #3 and #4 factory #3 (reactor) and #4 (techlab) armory gas #5 and #6 +1 vehicle armor factory #5 (reactor), #6 (techlab), #7 (techlab) (#8 later, when 4th cc is almost ready)
this amount of production allows you to be relentless with the aggression. pain train of hellions, mines and cyclones. it's a very fast and swarmy style. it lends itself well to multi-pronged attacks, parade pushing and constant army trades. it is especially effective on maps like Frozen Temple with multiple attack routes.
I can afford 8 factories because I delay the 2nd armory and skip the starport entirely. I upgrade armor only because cyclones/mines use spell damage, while the hellions are mainly for soaking damage while I kite and burrow. the only time I make a starport is in response to roach/nydus all-ins (tankivacs).
the only way zerg can trade equally against cyclone/hellion/mine is with viper abducts or lucky fungals. otherwise, the only hard counter is brood lords.
I really want to see that in action. Any replays to share ?
I played this one earlier this morning. not my finest performance, but it shows the general strategy and tactics:
the zerg took his 5th at 8 o'clock. this is a very smart move because it means he only has to control the left corridor. if he took the 5th in the middle at 3 o'clock, he would have to defend the left and right. his 4th and 5th would be exposed to multi-pronged attacks. you see, roach/hydra/viper is strong in a deathball, but weak when split up. ideally, I would want to split my cyclone/mine/hellion army in 2 pincer groups and poke him from left and right.
my main aim is to trade constantly. in the long run, 8 factory cyclone/mine/hellion trades more efficiently than any zerg ground army. my army is also easier to micro, so the constant battles are more stressful for the zerg player... detecting mines, sniping mines, abducts, spells. all I have to do is kite and burrow. the more time spent fighting, the more zerg will make mistakes.
I probably should have made 2 or 3 tanks to really lock down my 5th cc and provide cover for my retreating cyclones. I was very careless with my cyclones here... so just try to imagine how strong it might be with good micro
you could say this is a spiritual successor to marine/mine parade pushes from the beginning of HotS... except this time, with pure factory units. back then, terrans hammered zerg's 4th base or died trying. this time you want to bring down the 5th base (or the 4th while he is defending the 5th).
This is absolutely brilliant ! You're now my favorite player ever =)
EPT
