On August 05 2016 06:18 Nightmarjoo wrote: tvz 16rax 16gas reaper cc reactor rax depot gas fact tech stim port reactor 2medic 1-2 mines medic cc ebayebay raxraxrax Use the two medics and 16 marines you should have accumulated to take map control and secure your third base while killing what you can as described over the last couple pages of this thread. Use the third medic with 4-6 marines and 1-2 widow mines in conjunction with the first two, as is possible.
tvp 15gas 16rax fact marine tech cc cyclone rax reactor stim port ebay cc raxraxrax SCV scout at 17. Use the cyclone to defend an oracle or early aggression or scout his unit count in his nat, depending on what your scv has scouted. You can scout his third when your first two medics come out to determine whether or not you can take your third or if you need to bunker up. Note that with this build stim will only be at about 3/4 completion when your medics are on the map.
Alternatively you can use the exact same build described under tvz.
tvt 15gas 16rax reaper fact reaper hellion cc port SCV scout at 17 to try to differentiate between fast expansion, 2gas tech, and 2-3rax reaper. Use your first reaper defensively since a rax first reaper will be out on the map before yours. Once you have two reapers you can move them together to scout the map.
The purpose of this specific order of buildings and units allows you to react to whatever you scout. If he's going an aggressive reaper build with good micro your 2reapers will defend his first 2 reapers and with your hellion out you should stop the next wave as well. If he's going cloaked banshee you can expand and then get viking raven in time. You'll need to use one scan to buy time for raven completion. If he's going anything normal (expansion) you just adapt based on your style/preference. I can't teach you how to adapt into bio, I don't use it tvt at all. If he does any kind of marine/tank/medic aggression you can shit on it with reactor hellions and a viking, even if you want to go bio after.
Of course there's many other openings, transitions, and unit choices for every matchup. I can answer whatever questions you have about what I wrote or suggest alternative options if you want.
All right, thank you very much!
I think I will actually figure stuff out first and I'll come back to you when I have really specific questions. I just needed some point to start from again since I played a clunky kind of Reaper-Expand into 1-1-1 into 3 CC, 8 Rax, 1 SP, 1 Factory kind of style I mixed together on my own and I just recently had a nice masters player look over a replay of mine and he just said "Dude, try to learn a solid opening, what you are doing makes no sense".
So your answer is exactly what I need right now, thanks again! ^.^
Returning HotS plat terran, what are the best resources for getting up to speed with LotV multiplayer? Also are there any new builds about? All the ones on liquipedia look the same as HotS O_O <3
EDIT: Have just seen the post above mine so will give those a whirl!
I just came back from a 4 year break and got caught up by watching every single GSL/SSL/Proleague game including a terran from the last GSL finals until now, using sc2casts.com, taking over nine thousand pages of notes.
On August 06 2016 20:47 Damien wrote: What build order do you guys think is the best macro openning, but one that can hold reaper rush at same time?
I open reactor first expand into 1/1/1 every game and it can hold reaper rush on most maps just fine. Only on frozen temple it gets tricky.
If its proxy reaper you have to skip the reactor and make a 2nd rax, make a bunker and pull a few scvs but with good micro you should be able to hold it
On August 06 2016 20:47 Damien wrote: What build order do you guys think is the best macro openning, but one that can hold reaper rush at same time?
I open reactor first expand into 1/1/1 every game and it can hold reaper rush on most maps just fine. Only on frozen temple it gets tricky.
If its proxy reaper you have to skip the reactor and make a 2nd rax, make a bunker and pull a few scvs but with good micro you should be able to hold it
Ty Charoisaur! : )
So you don't create factory if you noticed that oponent will reaper rush u? Do you put 2 bunkers near scvs to hold it with only rines inside?
On August 06 2016 20:47 Damien wrote: What build order do you guys think is the best macro openning, but one that can hold reaper rush at same time?
I open reactor first expand into 1/1/1 every game and it can hold reaper rush on most maps just fine. Only on frozen temple it gets tricky.
If its proxy reaper you have to skip the reactor and make a 2nd rax, make a bunker and pull a few scvs but with good micro you should be able to hold it
Ty Charoisaur! : )
So you don't create factory if you noticed that oponent will reaper rush u? Do you put 2 bunkers near scvs to hold it with only rines inside?
I still build a factory but after the bunker and 2nd rax. The bunker I build at the ramp behind the rax (otherwise he can kill the depots for free) and try to intercept his reapers with my marines + 2-3 pulled scvs if he tries to jump in. Only on frozen temple its hard to defend because there are so many locations at which he can jump in but on the other maps I hold it almost every time.
adept allin killed me, i think i did a good job holding, or on the other hand he played rly poorly into my WMs, but he managed to win. Do i need bunkers? Is there no way around? I had stim, but marines are still so weak vs adepts early on, even in the midgame they have sometimes trouble.
So if i see Toss is going for some 2 base adept attack, and not even a good one with +1 attack upgrades and glaives, do i need bunkers, no matter what? The viking was for the WP but i think i should have gotten maybe just liberator instead?
On August 06 2016 20:47 Damien wrote: What build order do you guys think is the best macro openning, but one that can hold reaper rush at same time?
To quote myself on the previous page:
tvt 15gas 16rax reaper fact reaper hellion cc port SCV scout at 17 to try to differentiate between fast expansion, 2gas tech, and 2-3rax reaper. Use your first reaper defensively since a rax first reaper will be out on the map before yours. Once you have two reapers you can move them together to scout the map.
Use reaper/hellion to defend while you expand. If he blunders his units you can attack him immediately with however many reaper/hellion have survived.
I dunno how you define a "macro opening", but this build puts you in position to take advantage of whatever your opponent is doing. If your opponent uses a greedier opening, you just take a faster third behind your tech advantage.
On August 06 2016 16:51 AleXusher wrote: How do i have to play vs phonix and adept heavy armies? I think if i push out to early i get rekt. Do i need to hit a specific timing? if so which?
i also could rly use a TvT guide
Widow mines will help a lot vs both phoenix and adepts. He may even have skipped robo altogether, but if he hasn't just focus on finding and killing his obs and the map is yours. It might be worth upgrading Claws for your mines if he doesn't transition.
Ultimately your goal is to minimize phoenix damage, not lose medics pointlessly, and just play defensively with depot walls and such until your marine count and upgrades are good enough that he can't touch you with phoenix. Try and keep tabs on his composition-- you want to pressure him before colossi are out. Unless you're already out on the map and know 100% his phoenix are out of position, don't try to drop.
I can't just teach you tvt... just watch some GSL games and take notes. I do not bio in tvt under any circumstances, so I'm hesitant to give advice regarding bio. I can give tips on using mech tvt, but I think most of my play in this matchup is intuitive and therefore I can't give much general advice. If you have specific questions I can answer those no problem.
Reality mostly uses mech, and TY exclusively uses bio.
On August 07 2016 01:28 AleXusher wrote: adept allin killed me, i think i did a good job holding, or on the other hand he played rly poorly into my WMs, but he managed to win. Do i need bunkers? Is there no way around? I had stim, but marines are still so weak vs adepts early on, even in the midgame they have sometimes trouble.
So if i see Toss is going for some 2 base adept attack, and not even a good one with +1 attack upgrades and glaives, do i need bunkers, no matter what? The viking was for the WP but i think i should have gotten maybe just liberator instead?
If you had bunkers or kept your medic alive you'd have held no problem. From what your reaper scouted you knew 100% it was either adept glaives all-in or blink all-in, and then if you'd have scouted his gate count you'd have known it was the adept build. Either way your reaper saw enough to recommend bunkers-- probably 2 in the nat and maybe 1 in the main (since you couldn't rule out blink yet).
The other blunder you made was not remaking depots, but that probably didn't change the game.
What is the safest way to open in TvP? My winrate is 35% against Protoss and it seems almost impossible to account for all the different cheeses they can do.
I want a build that is defensive, get me an expansion and protects me from dying/taking heavy damage in the first 4-5 minutes of the game.
I like gas first fact cc cyclone (no reaper). The cyclone is good vs whatever early game stuff they have. If you scv scout fast expand you can just use the fact for addons, or grab a quick third cc with reactor marine/tank. If they expand you can use the cyclone to pressure their nat to see how greedy they're being with gateway production. If they have only a single adept and don't remake it when you kill the first one odds are high they're going dt drop.
On August 07 2016 16:51 MockHamill wrote: What is the safest way to open in TvP? My winrate is 35% against Protoss and it seems almost impossible to account for all the different cheeses they can do.
I want a build that is defensive, get me an expansion and protects me from dying/taking heavy damage in the first 4-5 minutes of the game.
Reactor expand into 1/1/1 with a cyclone is pretty safe. You can also reaper expand but I don't really like that because pylons shut them down so easily and it leaves you vulnerable to pylon rushes. After the cyclone you can make a liberator to harass and a tank as extra safety vs allins then either take a 3rd and go into a macrogame or add 4 barracks and 2 base allin.
On August 07 2016 16:51 MockHamill wrote: What is the safest way to open in TvP? My winrate is 35% against Protoss and it seems almost impossible to account for all the different cheeses they can do.
I want a build that is defensive, get me an expansion and protects me from dying/taking heavy damage in the first 4-5 minutes of the game.
Reactor expand into 1/1/1 with a cyclone is pretty safe. You can also reaper expand but I don't really like that because pylons shut them down so easily and it leaves you vulnerable to pylon rushes. After the cyclone you can make a liberator to harass and a tank as extra safety vs allins then either take a 3rd and go into a macrogame or add 4 barracks and 2 base allin.
CC on high ground or low?
Wall with reactor in it or 3 supply depots?
Blind Turrets in each mineral line or just the one without the cyclone?
Bunker behind the mineral line or in front of the natural?
On August 07 2016 16:51 MockHamill wrote: What is the safest way to open in TvP? My winrate is 35% against Protoss and it seems almost impossible to account for all the different cheeses they can do.
I want a build that is defensive, get me an expansion and protects me from dying/taking heavy damage in the first 4-5 minutes of the game.
Reactor expand into 1/1/1 with a cyclone is pretty safe. You can also reaper expand but I don't really like that because pylons shut them down so easily and it leaves you vulnerable to pylon rushes. After the cyclone you can make a liberator to harass and a tank as extra safety vs allins then either take a 3rd and go into a macrogame or add 4 barracks and 2 base allin.
CC on high ground or low?
Wall with reactor in it or 3 supply depots?
Blind Turrets in each mineral line or just the one without the cyclone?
Bunker behind the mineral line or in front of the natural?
-I do it on high ground but I think you can also put it on low-ground. Could be tricky if he sends adepts+MSC across the map. -with reactor otherwise the wall is not done when the first adept arrives -if you don't scan in both mineral lines, if you scan and assume no DTs you can skip them -bunker in front of natural
On August 07 2016 16:51 MockHamill wrote: What is the safest way to open in TvP? My winrate is 35% against Protoss and it seems almost impossible to account for all the different cheeses they can do.
I want a build that is defensive, get me an expansion and protects me from dying/taking heavy damage in the first 4-5 minutes of the game.
Reactor expand into 1/1/1 with a cyclone is pretty safe. You can also reaper expand but I don't really like that because pylons shut them down so easily and it leaves you vulnerable to pylon rushes. After the cyclone you can make a liberator to harass and a tank as extra safety vs allins then either take a 3rd and go into a macrogame or add 4 barracks and 2 base allin.
CC on high ground or low?
Wall with reactor in it or 3 supply depots?
Blind Turrets in each mineral line or just the one without the cyclone?
Bunker behind the mineral line or in front of the natural?
Low ground is fine, I think it should be done before any rush can come. Also I haven't ever seen a high ground CC in a pro LotV game.
Wall with reactor in it or 3 supply depots?
If you can make a wall with 3 supply depots and make sure no adept can come in while your building it (don't make extra depots when you don't need it), then I think its indeed better, but normally it won't be such a big problem because you will either have a good enough army to hold most of the attacks, or you'll play aggressive.
Bunker behind the mineral line or in front of the natural?
Depends on the map, I think it was maru that a bunker in his natural on dusk towers near, but that was placed so it covered the entire landing area and the back of his minerals of his natural. But it was only 1 game vs an aggressive drop build. The best option to go with for every game would be a cyclone in the back of the main for drops and all the marines near the front, this is because cyclones are fast and come back into the battle if needed while marines simply take to long.
T2 master terran here, I watched the first 12 orso minutes of the game and made some notes of the game, I think these are really important factors that will play heavily in your mid-late game and should be fixed before moving into late game theory.
Low ground cc is unnescecary if you keep your reaper near your cc wierd reaper pathing, if you decide to go into the natural do it ASAP and try to see later if he has a 3rd or not, plus don't sacrafice it for 1 drone, especially when you did not see his tech or 3rd hatch yet.
you should always instantly make an orbital on your second cc, never make scvs from it.
your leaving an reactor not put to use really early on for a long time while your star port makes one him self, also starport should always get an reactor before the factory if your only going to make 2 widow mines.
WAY to early gases, 800 at 7 minutes is not acceptable, thats 5 barracks right there
I think if your lifting an cc and don't have instantly saturation, I think building it in a orbtial -> mule -> lift is the best way to go
your star port production is awefull, so many gaps in between them
Never make your 3rd cc an planitary and instead make an orbital, 4th should be ok to have as an planitary
the 2 medivac drop is quite late
Lots of units at your 3rd that has a plantary but no vision of the main attack paths into your natural
at 11 minutes you have 1.7k gas, a 4th and your only pressure has been 2 late medivcas, and at the same time you have 0 liberators and only 1 tank in your main.
Consdering your passive playstyle I would suggest watch this game, try to mimick its army movement and try to compare timings of his big push.
T2 master terran here, I watched the first 12 orso minutes of the game and made some notes of the game, I think these are really important factors that will play heavily in your mid-late game and should be fixed before moving into late game theory.
Low ground cc is unnescecary if you keep your reaper near your cc wierd reaper pathing, if you decide to go into the natural do it ASAP and try to see later if he has a 3rd or not, plus don't sacrafice it for 1 drone, especially when you did not see his tech or 3rd hatch yet.
you should always instantly make an orbital on your second cc, never make scvs from it.
your leaving an reactor not put to use really early on for a long time while your star port makes one him self, also starport should always get an reactor before the factory if your only going to make 2 widow mines.
WAY to early gases, 800 at 7 minutes is not acceptable, thats 5 barracks right there
I think if your lifting an cc and don't have instantly saturation, I think building it in a orbtial -> mule -> lift is the best way to go
your star port production is awefull, so many gaps in between them
Never make your 3rd cc an planitary and instead make an orbital, 4th should be ok to have as an planitary
the 2 medivac drop is quite late
Lots of units at your 3rd that has a plantary but no vision of the main attack paths into your natural
at 11 minutes you have 1.7k gas, a 4th and your only pressure has been 2 late medivcas, and at the same time you have 0 liberators and only 1 tank in your main.
Consdering your passive playstyle I would suggest watch this game, try to mimick its army movement and try to compare timings of his big push.
I started my cc on the high ground because I noticed he did his pool first than his natural, so he was about to rush me and deny my build on low ground. Isn't it right?
Yeah! You're right about the orbital on the natural. I think I didn't it faster because it will take time and it was needed to move it to natural asap. But I agree with you. It would be better to start the orbital asap.
About the reactor, I was planning to put another 2 rax on the reactors, but I commited a mistake because I thought I was already building the third base. But you're right, It would be better if I was using it.
When I know it was time to build another 2 gases?
My starport production is really bad. Do you think it was needed to produce pairs of liberators to deal with mutas? Whats is the better way to deal with it, mutas/banes/lings?
Ty for the planetary in fourth cc tip. I thought it would better to build fortress on the third.
My medivac drop was really bad because I was attacked. You're right.
I am really gratefull for your help. I will study it and try to solve the problem. I've played a game a few minutes. Do you want to see the replay? I will try to put your tips in practice right now.
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: I started my cc on the high ground because I noticed he did his pool first than his natural, so he was about to rush me and deny my build on low ground. Isn't it right?
If you scout it like that you can deny do so much in direct damage by defending instead of attacking him that I think its not worth it.
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: When I know it was time to build another 2 gases?
This depends on the build, but once you start making a units out of your starport its a good time for your 3rd gas, and once you have full production or start your armory is a good time for your 4th
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: My starport production is really bad. Do you think it was needed to produce pairs of liberators to deal with mutas? Whats is the better way to deal with it, mutas/banes/lings?
If he goes mass muta liberators are very good, but both are fine imo.
On August 11 2016 23:31 Damien wrote: I am really gratefull for your help. I will study it and try to solve the problem. I've played a game a few minutes. Do you want to see the replay? I will try to put your tips in practice right now.
EPT
