EPTThe LotV Terran Help Me Thread - Page 49
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On July 24 2016 21:39 Bojas wrote: Can we make attaching revelant replays mandatory when asking for advice? I don't mean questions about what build order to pick etc. But questions about specific games. You might wanna pm jer99 to update the OP and for other races as well, or even the forum guidelines, not that i think many people read it >_> | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
On July 25 2016 01:16 ArtyK wrote: You might wanna pm jer99 to update the OP and for other races as well, or even the forum guidelines, not that i think many people read it >_> Yeah, I don't know how active the strategy forum staff is currently. | ||
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NexT_SC2
United States117 Posts
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Damien
Brazil131 Posts
I need one of those tutorials like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/425617-4m-a-guide-to-modern-tvz , but I am playing Lotv. | ||
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AleXusher
280 Posts
... http://ggtracker.com/matches/6743126 yeah i had very few units, but what do you expect?... 3 rax would have died 2 i guess... WM was missplaced ok, but... still how can he get so many units? even with counter repair and 10 sCVs i wouldnt have hold the bunker due to FF and i lacked a lot of minerals. some guy said i need tankivac, well guess what, it died, and even if it didnt, i had so few units... so, where did i fail so hard? | ||
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Damien
Brazil131 Posts
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Damien
Brazil131 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On July 28 2016 05:06 Damien wrote: I just can't win against Zergs. It's all the same, ultra/corruptor/blords. you shouldn't let him get there. if you execute your 3 base pre-hive timing right you should beat most players easily. | ||
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Damien
Brazil131 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On July 28 2016 07:42 Damien wrote: It is almost impossible. They just keep on defending. I can't use all my army, if I do this, they just run and destroy my base. If I try to drop, they will ever have more units than me and if I drop where he isn't, he just f2 A+click on the attack site. Zerg is damm op on lotv. On the last TvZ, the opponent takes his Hive in 10 min. sounds like either your build is bad or you have to work on your mechanics. on pro level terrans are consistently able to kill zergs in the midgame despite zergs knowing what is coming. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On July 27 2016 02:18 AleXusher wrote: can someone help me and tell me why i lost this TvP? ... http://ggtracker.com/matches/6743126 yeah i had very few units, but what do you expect?... 3 rax would have died 2 i guess... WM was missplaced ok, but... still how can he get so many units? even with counter repair and 10 sCVs i wouldnt have hold the bunker due to FF and i lacked a lot of minerals. some guy said i need tankivac, well guess what, it died, and even if it didnt, i had so few units... so, where did i fail so hard? Since you scouted so late there was no reason to block his nat with an ebay-- if he was fast expanding he'd already have placed nexus. So against his all-in you're already 125 minerals behind. Your scv production is far from constant, contributing to your lack of income. Getting a 2nd gas you couldn't make the most out of and using 6 scvs on gas further hurt your mineral income. If you insist on the 2nd gas, consider mining with 2 on each instead as long as you're mining with fewer than 16 scvs on minerals. Your port granted you 0 value. It delayed factory production, cost more minerals and gas you didn't really have to afford, and you accomplished nothing with the 2 units it made. The viking pushed the warp prism away for one warp cycle, and it was worthless after that. Good marine control, especially with a bunker on the left side of your main (not hittable from lowground) would have enabled just marines to accomplish the same thing. You eventually get a tank and a medic, but you actually pick the tank up 0 times, and your units were basically getting 1shot so the medic did literally nothing. I don't know if there's one best answer or not, but what comes to mind is you should have gotten a cyclone as soon as possible. With good control the cylone would obtain more value than any other single unit, and would have had a better chance of killing his warp prism than your viking. It also would have been very effective against his immortals-- the only unit he had capable of effectively destroying bunkers. If you had survived a little longer you were going to get supply blocked very hard since you never preemptively replaced the depots you would surely lose in your wall. Without losing them you were going to get supply blocked at 46 as is, losing them and you'd need 3 depots simultaneously. You were probably never going to hold that wall forever, so you needed to be preparing for its demise. That means making at least one extra bunker farther into your main, and of course replacing the depots. The loss of the reactor would have hurt, but I imagine you probably needed a 2nd rax anyway. If you omitted port altogether and just made scvs, marines, a cyclone, and tanks (or mines, but I think the tanks would be more effective, especially if your cyclone could kill the prism before he dropped immortals in range of your tank(s)) I think you could easily have afforded 2rax marine production. Additionally you'd have been able to afford to upgrade your 2nd cc much sooner, and would have benefited from its additional mule income, making the necessity to pull scvs for repairs less of an economic burden. Alternatively, if you really wanted the port, you probably would have been better off skipping the medic and making liberators. If the gas cost was hard on you you could make widow mines rather than tanks from your factory. You still could have trained a single cyclone from your fact. Further alternatively, if you really wanted to use tankevacs you should have skipped the viking and beelined techlab port tank medic. That would leave you a little more vulnerable to the warp prism during the bust, but maybe you could have gotten a viking after medic. The greatest asset of the tankevac is it lets you push his units away from your base if he's not prepared to bust you immediately. So if you picture your marines with a bunker on left side of base dueling his warp prism and adepts while you make the tankevac, as soon as your tankevac is done you can use it to harass his units while keeping the tank out of range of his immortals. That forces him to either commit to the bust earlier, when he's less prepared, to retreat altogether, or to simply absorb tank hits while you continue to macro and prepare bunkers. And lastly alternatively, you could have raxed up instead of teched up. Since you scouted the 4gate and proxy robo you knew 100% he wasn't going blink, which means every fight would be marine/marauder vs gateway + immortal. With 3rax 1techlab you would have a chance to hold by just turtling on bunkers while working on stim (probably after concussive). The warp prism would be impossible to kill, which is the greatest weakness of that style, but you'd only need 1gas mining until your 2nd oc was up for mules, teching to medics only when it did not tax your income. Bunkers would keep you alive until stim finished, and stim would prevent him from killing you outright, buying you time to get medics out, at which point the game has either transitioned into something normal, or you have won outright. Ultimately the reason his build was so effective is that it was a direct hard counter to your entire build. The first poke punished your wall and choice of reaper cc reactor, the warp prism punished your reliance on a wall and single bunker, and then the immortals punished your reliance on walls and bunkers in general. Then his final attack hit before your tech made a difference (though I think your macro and decisions and many little things I've talked about before probably further weakened you for his final attack) and ended game. If you choose to use the most common opening in the current meta in the ladder you have to accept that sometimes you'll get blind hard-countered by merit of being predictable. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
I don't know if there's one best answer or not, but what comes to mind is you should have gotten a cyclone as soon as possible. With good control the cylone would obtain more value than any other single unit, and would have had a better chance of killing his warp prism than your viking. It also would have been very effective against his immortals-- the only unit he had capable of effectively destroying bunkers. disagree with this. the cyclone will never kill the warpprism unless the protoss messes up and can't kill immortals because of warpprism pick up. a tank is far better against allins than a cyclone. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On July 25 2016 08:10 NexT_SC2 wrote: Could someone update me on the current meta openings for tvz (why do we open hellions now?) and how/ when to transition to lategame vs ultras. Are ghosts pretty much mandatory vs ultras now? Is it even worth it to make liberators? On July 25 2016 13:43 Damien wrote: Can you guys teach me how to kill Z? I am 75% winrate vs T and P, but 35% vs Z. I need one of those tutorials like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/425617-4m-a-guide-to-modern-tvz , but I am playing Lotv. On July 28 2016 05:06 Damien wrote: I just can't win against Zergs. It's all the same, ultra/corruptor/blords. Use some fast expansion opening build order, then either tech up or get 2nd rax and stim (you can 3rax no reactor if you cc first). If you tech up, use hellion + banshee/liberator or marine/tank to create some kind of cover for 3rd cc. If you rax up get stim asap and tech to medics, and then send marines in medics out as soon as possible, starting 3rd cc same time. Your first aggression phase is either 2tankevacs or 2medic marine drop with stim. Use them to harass zerg as much as possible without losing anything. For the most part, nothing is worth sacrificing any unit to kill. Kill drones, queens, units, tumors, damage buildings, and with marines kill ovys. Your second aggression phase is when you have the other option (tank or stim). Use that to stop creep spread, and depending on army sizes use it to deny his 4th base. Unless you're confident you can win a battle and kill the 4th without great loss you usually aren't fully committing to an engagement. Always maximize your strength and minimize his. A battle you can barely win is probably not worth starting. Your mechanics govern how long you can be on the map and how much you can spread zerg out. If you need to pull back completely to avoid getting overrun, do it. The more successful you are at each skirmish, drop, and engagement, the longer zerg has to delay their hive. The more space zerg has, the faster his hive is. When ultras come out pull the bulk of your army back unless you're already super prepared for them somehow. If he doesn't have mutas or corruptors out continue to drop harass. If he does, don't suicide units pointlessly. If he just has corruptors and you know for sure where they are and his main army is far from his base you can drop harass to draw the corruptors away. Handling ultras requires both ghosts and liberators, with priority going to ghosts of the two. Ghosts are more reliable because liberators can just get mowed down by corruptors (and god help you if he has vipers), and because ghosts are equally useful against ultras and broodlords. The general tactic to combatting ultras is you use the dynamic between a strong defensive position (could be at an expansion of yours, could be at a choke on the map, or could be in an aggressive position near one of his expansions), the mobility of your bio army, and the power of ghosts' snipe. Generally speaking, you engage his army with part of your main army (you almost never attack zerg with all of your army-- leave a pre-positioned concave behind the poking force), getting free kills with your range advantage as you can, kiting back into your main force, then splitting and kiting with your main force as he runs through a gauntlet consisting of one or more of the following: liberation zones, tank range, widow mines, and planetary fortress fire (if you have tanks, you're probably using tanks, liberators, and a pf). He'll pull back as he comes into your kill zone, at which point you unload snipes on his ultras while he retreats. Rinse and repeat. Your ghosts can be with your main army, but you usually want them either to the side of the path you're retreating through or directly behind your army to minimize the chances of their snipe getting interrupted by taking damage. You may need to utilize cloak to get your ghosts in an effective and safe position. If that's the case, you may need to prioritize overseers or infestors over ultras initially. The further behind you are when hive tech comes out the harder you'll have to turtle. If you're having difficulty harassing his expansions with drops while turtling, consider getting cloak and at least one nuke to harass his expansions with cloaked nukes. Ultimately if you can't kill zerg before hive tech your goal is to starve him out by repeatedly engaging his army trading enourmously efficiently. Zerg should never be able to chase your entire army as it kites back through liberation zones and all that other fancy stuff. If zerg can just run through everything and kill your entire army in spite of proper positioning and usage of all the things I talked about, then you were either in a horrible position for the engagement (and probably didn't have enough of those things, especially at least 1 pf), or you were horribly outplayed and you lost because your mechanics were inferior or you traded poorly before hive tech or you didn't expand or limit his expansions in the least bit. Other things to consider: you may need vikings as an extra dynamic to deal with corruptors. Ravens (seeker/pdd) may also help alternatively. Liberator range upgrade is good, because it makes it harder for his corruptors to attack your liberators. You also can do cute things with depots and turrets in a kind of checker pattern to block the pathing of ultras near a critical choke or expansion to make it easier to kite his army-- especially if you don't have liberators or other fancy things up yet. If you don't have neither ghosts nor liberators you're going to lose horribly, even if you fight by a pf. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On July 28 2016 12:30 Charoisaur wrote: disagree with this. the cyclone will never kill the warpprism unless the protoss messes up and can't kill immortals because of warpprism pick up. a tank is far better against allins than a cyclone. Well I said it would have a better chance, not a guaranteed chance. Furthermore even if you can't kill the warp prism it offers more dps the rest of the time than does the viking anyway, which is ultimately what I was comparing the effectiveness of the cyclone to, not tanks. Additionally if his warp prism lives until the bust he can't both keep it alive and keep juggling immortals-- he either loses the warp prism or he has to retreat the immortals, buying you more time either way. And lastly, I mentioned beelining tanks as an alternative anyway if you aren't interested in the cyclone at all. | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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AleXusher
280 Posts
Since you scouted so late there was no reason to block his nat with an ebay-- if he was fast expanding he'd already have placed nexus. So against his all-in you're already 125 minerals behind. i just wonder, what if i dont find the proxy in time and it is oracle, then i need the ebay, most likely, no? So when should i let the ebay finish, just in case i cant find the proxy and make sure it is neither blink, nor WP play? 2:30? 2:40? The ebay also "helps" me to see if he wants to take a base or not, either way he attacks the ebay which delays his attack or he doesnt and i know he still sits on one base, granted he is not expanding on the 3rd base location. I think i also should have gone to get the 2nd CC into an OC asap for the double mule, considering that i needed possible some SCVs to repair bunker. Good tips with the 2nd bunker and the additional supply depots, that sure helps me thx. But one thing i am not quite sure about. Do you think 3 rax is better vs WP play then 1-1-1 with tankivac? I rly dislike the Cyclone, as it dies so fast, lockon can be canceled with WP pickup, so tank seems to be more viable. So with that in mind, you think i should go for tank into medic instead of viking first? and instead of the viking then get a lib? | ||
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cw
26 Posts
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AleXusher
280 Posts
how do i defend this? ... http://ggtracker.com/matches/6746554 i had turrets and bunkers, but adepts just shade in and its gg :D | ||
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Megs
6 Posts
I'm learning the game and following 'The Staircase' method. I'm interested in understanding how to more efficiently saturated bases (i'm terran) with scv's. Things i've tried:- - Saturate first base then move additional workers to 2nd base when it completes, then rally all scv's being produced to the second base and so on; this feels awkward when in game. - or saturate first base and then drag half the workers off to the second base. then when getting 3rd base drag 1/3 of the owrkers from both bases - this gets difficult to keep track of! what are you thoughts on the best way of 'managing' workers? Megs | ||
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