I won't comment your build cause you're probably a better player than me, but I kind of puzzled by how defensive you are in this replay, you produce a lot of units that stay at home and your third is very late, were you expecting a 2 base all in?
when you start your third, in your main, he already has his third saturated with 16 more workers than you. It's kind of hard to come back from such a deficit.
SO I don't know if the disruptors are really the problem here. Anyway, there is no counter to disruptor in terms of units, it's just about micro and engagement (ByuN does cool moves in that replay against Dear) : you constantly move in and out, kite if necessary, split your units when the disruptors shot. Else than this pros can target and kill the disruptors before their shot hits, but it's a very dicey move. You can also load in your medivacs, if you sure he can't blink forward and snipe.
All in all, react as if it was some huge ass banelings....
Could you please suggest a build order to proxy reaper rush a zerg at Frozen Temple? The map should be good for those kind of builds.
I've always went first rax at my base and build 2 more proxy barracks @17 supply. Those way my reapers are waaaay to late, guess I'm doing the build wrong.
If you have Advanced Ballistics and Protoss doesn't have Tempests you can safely attack on 8+ liberators, possibly even with an upgrade deficit.
Once they have 4+ Tempests you need to Turret push with the bulk of your army while getting an appropriate Ghost and Viking count while trading as efficiently as you can with split forces all over the map. Split up your Liberators to add an extra dynamic to drops and/or take advantage of the movement of his forces in response to your drops; but make sure to leave at least 4 Liberators with your main army and Turret wall.
I don't think you should feel like you can't take the game late against Protoss-- Tempests aren't unstoppable even with Storm and Colossi support. You play it very similarly to tvz lategame-- set up a strong defense somewhere important in the middle of the map while projecting your power everywhere else on the map. Don't forget to use Cloak to get good EMPs and/or snipe Observers, and don't forget to use Nukes both to harass and push his army back.
On September 17 2016 15:48 Damien wrote: Can you guys help me with some tips to win against Z?
Step 1: execute your build order correctly. You made a bunker against hatch-first 6lings while your reaper was alive, then you made fact before reactor, then you delayed stim with port/reactor. As result your stim research completed a minute later than intended and you had 5 fewer marines with your first two medics.
Then you added rax before ebays and starting 1-1; which is only a problem because you took your 3rd and 4th gas immediately after 3rd cc-- you can support all of your gas needs to include combat shields (which you omitted) and 1-1 on 3gas. So you hamstrung your economy and therefore your production as well.
Your drops are pretty effective this game, but your macro at home is suffering so much it doesn't matter. Taking such quick 4th and 5th bases simultaneously in conjunction with not having enough scvs as is preventing you from maxing and getting an army that can actually defeat the zerg. Your 2-2 isn't even started by the time 3-3 should be complete.
Repeatedly stimming your army when it's not in combat without having any medics cripples your first major push, so while it does do damage you throw away any semblance of momentum or map control you may have had previously.
Your snipes on the corruptors were really good; but you couldn't turn it into an advantage since you had no ground army resulting from not having enough barracks for 3base income, much less 5base.
As the game goes on you start to blunder your ghosts more and more, suiciding them ahead of your army and sniping corruptors when you don't have any liberators.
I don't understand the thors and +3 mech attack; ship attack or vehicle armour both would have served you better.
If you pushed with turrets you'd be able to fight his army much more effectively. The turrets allow your army to safely retreat from both corruptors and ultras-- the latter by physically blocking their pathing.
Repeatedly bming your opponent isn't helping you stay cool, calm, and collected to focus on making good decisions. There are certainly aspects of each race which are easier to execute than other aspects of each race, but ultimately racial balance played no part in this game. You lose because your ability to execute the counter-moves to his tactics and composition are inferior to his. Is 'a' clicking more effective with his army than yours? Sure, but the only reason you stayed in the game as long as you did was because it was much harder for him to kill your repaired-PFs than for you to kill his mining hatcheries. He didn't flame your race for having such strong defense.
In the last seconds of the game you're accusing him of 'a' clicking, but he had just executed a delicate dance of keeping his units out of liberation zones and preventing your ghosts from getting effective snipes off, whereas your final move is to frustratedly 'a' click into his vastly superior army. Everytime your ghosts died in front of your army pointlessly was you 'a' moving.
Instead of looking at the moments in the game where you temporarily held an advantage (before throwing it away with poor play) followed by defeat being the product of his race being easier, look at the fact that you temporarily held an advantage many times and he with great difficulty and patience clawed his way back into the game to ultimately overcome you. You both did good things and both made mistakes, but over the course of the game he made more good moves and fewer mistakes than you, which is why he defeated you and won.
So step 2 is fix your mindset and temper. If you don't want to get called out for acting like a turd, don't act like a turd in your games. Or if you want to be a turd, analyze your own replays. I don't mind helping out a fellow terran, but your behavior was a disgrace to our entire race. Have some integrity: treat your opponent the way you'd want to be treated, and be honest with yourself about your own play. The reason you're frustrated and stuck is probably because you aren't honest about what you need to improve in your own play.
Now as to what you could have done differently as opposed to better: you had ghosts and cloak-- consider getting a nuke to harass the expansions you can't safely push towards. I already mentioned pushing with turrets, but additionally/alternatively you can add a couple ravens into your composition to get some seeker missiles off on his corruptors. Also consider getting turret/pf range and the building armour upgrade. Don't forget concussive shells-- since you made marauders you may as well have gotten the upgrade: even if you're just slowing a zergling you're obstructing whatever is behind that zergling at the same time. Every little thing adds up over the course of the game.
Focus a little more on a strong defensive position to reset to. You played and pushed frantically because you had to stay on the move since you lacked such a position. This meant it was very difficult to split your army up through the entire lategame, so the only damage you inflicted was with your entire army in one vulnerable spot. So when you did inflict damage with a push, you subsequently lost the bulk of your army. This meant you never reached a point where you had a healthy ghost count with a sufficient amount of energy to get a meaningful number of snipes off. This meant you were always replacing liberators and/or failing to maintain a medic count instead of working towards a composition capable of actually fighting his army.
I already pointed out your low barracks count, but you also could have benefited from adding 1-2 more starports so you didn't have to choose between liberators or medics, and so you could effectively add in vikings later on without failing to replace your fleet after every engagement.
On September 10 2016 03:18 AVV wrote: Hi, guys!
Could you please suggest a build order to proxy reaper rush a zerg at Frozen Temple? The map should be good for those kind of builds.
I've always went first rax at my base and build 2 more proxy barracks @17 supply. Those way my reapers are waaaay to late, guess I'm doing the build wrong.
Sorry, I don't know how to effectively do a proxy reaper all-in, but I can point out that in Code S the terrans who went 3rax reaper on frozen temple went rax gas rax oc rax gas without cutting any scv production. I imagine if you wanted to proxy the 2nd and 3rd rax at that timing it would be easy to send the scvs there by not cutting production, so your minerals never go over 150. Trying to rush out proxy barracks by cutting scvs hurts your economy too much, which matters since you need 2gas income to support 3rax reaper.
Any advice on fighting zergs that derfend my harass perfectly with ling bane, spore, queen and sometimes some spines. The economical "disadvantage" they get from building spores and units doesn't usually compensate for the fact that I can't damage them and they build up a large swarm of ling bane before my army is anywhere near being able to fight it. I'm usually just behind because I'm the one losing units while dropping them while they accumulate them while defending my harass and not taking damage. Even if I do survive ling bane, they can now easily prevent me from dropping with mutas and reach hive on a lot of bases and I die to ultra corruptor.
Well if they're defending perfectly I guess you need to micro and multi-task perfectly. Post some replays and I can give actual advice.
MockHamil just post replays. If watching replays and vods of progamers isn't helping a random replay of someone worse isn't going to help either. There's no apm-free solution that just lets you magically win in "midgame".
On September 19 2016 09:18 Nightmarjoo wrote: Well if they're defending perfectly I guess you need to micro and multi-task perfectly.
By defending perfectly I mean they take no damage. Not "they put in a lot of effort". If they were just straight up better than me then my solution would be obvious... to get better myself. But they can defend without doing anything particularly difficult, so at my diamond level I can't really compensate with skill because if I was that good I wouldn't be having this problem and I likely wouldn't be in diamond, I can try to compensate with something of equal or close difficulty like a different build or a different drop location or strategy.
I have however tried improving my multitasking by adding more and more drops at once. Even have some drops unloaded and stim in to attack the fourth as I drop elsewhere, but they just split up their units and keep them stationed at their bases so I can never get any serious damage done.
The only thing I found to sometimes work is pushing with my main army at their fourth or third after dropping in the main. If they don't see my main army outside their front door and dont group up their army I can sometimes kill their third or fourth and try to contain them although this is rare.
Well again, without replays I can't give specifically relevant advice.
Byun's tactic is to almost exclusively push with groups of 2 medics and whatever marine/mine count fits in them. However he pushes he has enough medics to pick up everything, which means mine hits do minimal friendly fire damage and banes that don't get sniped don't hit marines. So he'll be pushing or dropping multiple locations with these sized elements and inflicting whatever damage he can. Usually that's creep tumors and lings, maybe more depending on how bogged down zerg is and how much damage they've already taken. He rarely actually pushes one location with his entire force (or even entire force minus a drop).
Over time these attacks get deadlier thanks to widow mine support and later liberator support. Lategame, as is possible, he'll frequently drop a location and place liberation zones on the drop location (usually in a mineral formation) so that once he picks up the units as the banes arrive (and survive the marine-focus-fire) everything gets hit by liberators, and as they retreat the marines get dropped again. Because he's so aggressive and efficient zerg struggles to build a useful corruptor count, so there's nothing to threaten the medics or liberators. You have to be much more careful (and sometimes more passive) if you allow zerg to build up a strong corruptor count as they approach ultra tech.
Byun is extremely patient and never forces anything. He takes what zerg gives him, and then asks for seconds. You say zerg is splitting up perfectly to nullify damage, but the removal of zerg units is damage inflicted. As they replace units they aren't increasing their worker count. As they lose units their capacity to protect their economy diminishes. As long as you don't lose all of your units pointlessly (e.g. an afk marine cluster under a medic getting 1shot by a couple banes) you never need to stop harassing. If zerg literally never takes economic damage (which I find improbable if you're doing anything resembling a successful job of keeping your units alive) then you move into lategame where your 3-3 should be faster and your gas more efficiently invested in lategame tech units (mostly liberators and ghosts)-- and then you try and leverage those assets against zerg.
does someone know the BO for TvP 3 rax allin with marauder/marines and Concusive shells? I just saw it once on YT but can't find it anymore, looks like good build to have in your pocket for tournaments and such.
On September 20 2016 16:59 AleXusher wrote: does someone know the BO for TvP 3 rax allin with marauder/marines and Concusive shells? I just saw it once on YT but can't find it anymore, looks like good build to have in your pocket for tournaments and such.
Since i have no idea where to post i might aswell post here. Has anybody else here played against carriers recently? I hardly play much and haven't played in quite a while, but during my last few games i had the impression that carriers are basically one huge buggy mess and kind of overpowered. they screw up the AI completly and even if you micro your units to attack the carriers (for example if you have vikings) it seems like they will always be more efficient. is there any "counter" to carriers? If not, what is the best way to beat them?
Ok so I've never faced Carriers in a 1v1 in lotv; but I've faced them in team games. They suck. If you physically can't get under the Carriers with Marines if you stim the interceptors will die and the Carriers will be a huge waste of money and supply. If you can get under them they vanish. Vikings still destroy them if your numbers and upgrades are good. Are Carriers more efficient per-cost than Vikings? Well, probably, but if they weren't they'd literally be worthless.
The biggest problem with Carriers is the supply investment before they're on the map with Interceptors. If you can't crack Protoss' defenses while they make them you had already lost the game. It's tough for Protoss just to get a couple Tempests out right now, and they're only 4 supply (for now). And a few Tempests can actually make Terran use his Liberators more cautiously whereas a few Carriers are worthless (need a lot to do anything).
Mech is naturally weak against air power currently, so it's important that even if you aren't using a port with your build you make at least 3 ports (at least 1 reactor) and an extra armory getting ship attack upgrades. If you're completely unprepared when he gets carriers out you'll die. If you have the infrastructure and upgrades in place you can make a sufficient anti-carrier force in time to not die.
If you can't maintain map control as a meching terran, protoss will have the opportunity to make carriers when he otherwise would not since you may not be able to punish the expensive and time-consuming tech switch. If you get in a strong position you can beat him to t4 tech and swap out scvs for extra ocs (mules) and use the supply lead to make battlecruisers. EMP + Yamato will allow you trade effectively with a Carrier army if you can get there. This requires multiple position-controlling PFs + turrets.
how do i have to play vs corruptor BL Infestor Ultralisk Ravager mass ling? It seems like there is no way to win vs this composition. BL Ultra Coruptor Ravager Ling iwthout the infestor is undoable for me already, i mean, i cant to vikings, because they suck vs ultralisks, i cant get mass libs because they die to corruptor and i cant go ghost because of the BL, so... what to do?
1. don't let them get all of that 2. ghosts literally beat all of those if used well in conjunction with any or all of the following: proper control, turret count/placement, pf support, mine support, liberator support, marines/hellions/thors/vikings/ravens/whatever else you want to make.
If you're looking for an easy 1a solution you're playing the wrong game. It's tough to control vs all of that just as it's tough for them to control all of that against you. Really the hardest part is figuring out what to prioritize your snipes on, which will be dependent on what you have to support your ghost and in what numbers. Infestors are worthless once you EMP them. Once you remove them you can use Cloak. If you're fighting away from turrets 1. you're wrong 2. snipe overseers first.
If you have liberators let the ultras run through your turret/mine/pf gauntlet chasing your ground army into liberation zones. If you have vikings don't let them die to corruptors (they can't sit over turrets and mines forever). If you have ravens try and seeker their corruptors or broodlords (I'm guessing the former is more effective, depending on your numbers, but they can't fly the latter into your units for friendly fire). If you don't have turrets and/or mines you're wrong. I don't recommend thors right now, but I'm guessing they'll be useful next patch. I don't recommend hellions, but if you have thors you can sit the hellions behind them to kill lings and broodlings (marines are better).
Remember to spread your ghosts and split them up. You want an advanced element to EMP infestors and get free snipes off (especially on overseers). You want a flanking element so that whichever direction they chase you're landing free snipes. Never group all of your ghosts because then any fungals, bane splash, ultra aoe, and mine/tank friendly fire aoe will all cancel your snipes.
Broodlords really aren't that scary, and will be even less scary next patch. Marines (with upgrades) eat them alive. Only ultras and infestors stop the marines from feasting on them. So once you EMP the infestors you just have to find a way to kill the ultras. Honestly with the right static defense, composition, and control, you don't even necessarily need a lot of ghosts (I would have some no matter what for infestors though).
Odds are of all the things I listed what you were most lacking was static defense. Without turrets and/or mines your air power is food for their corruptor clump, which puts the onus entirely on your remaining ground army and snipes to clean up a massive endgame army. Furthermore the turrets physically block the movement and mobility of ultras, which even if air control doesn't matter anymore allows your ground army to more effectively kite and outmaneuver to set up easy snipes.
The tricky part there is knowing when and where to set up static defense. You can use your own replays to find answers for that. Look at your every endgame engagement. First, reevaluate whether or not you engaged zerg or if they engaged you. If it's the former you can probably safely determine you fucked up and made a bad decision to engage the enemy when you weren't prepared. If it's the latter you should question either why you were in that position or why you weren't ready for them. Use the scenarios in your replays to reverse engineer when and where you needed to have built static defense to support your army against the lategame and endgame zerg army. Then use that information to predict when and where you need to make static d in future games.
Ultimately though 100% your real problem happened way earlier in the game, and you can avoid this scenario by cleaning up other shortcomings.
EPT
