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On March 08 2016 07:11 MockHamill wrote:
Anyone having success at Diamond level with TvP?
My win percentage is 34% in TvP and it feels like Protoss is heavily favoured at every stage in the game except for a short window in the mid game which is even.
So if you have any links to successful builds or game plan against Protoss, preferably some that do not require high APM to pull off it would be appreciated.
Well at diamond-low master you can do a lot of early game harass which they do not know how to reflect (like widow mine drops, liberator).
The issue is - when you face better players - they have solid pylon placement, mothership in main and stalkers on the other base which makes it ineffective to sacrifice your own economy for early game harass.
Thus, the best way to play the MU is to (a) scout effectively and (b) secure your own 3rd as soon as possible while being safe and (c) attack with liberators before he gets tempests. You definitely have an advantage when you have around 4+ liberators at 160+ supply and he doesn't have tempests out.
If he has HT's you need to approach somewhat carefully, but you should still be able to win an equal engagement assuming you have decent unit control.
If the opponent opts for Disruptors you should outdrop him in the midgame since Disruptors are extremely immobile.
If he instead goes for heavy Adept/Immortal (lots of army + relatively little tech) on 3 bases you turtle behind liberators and widow mines and wait till you outscale him
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On March 08 2016 19:16 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 09:40 CharAznable2 wrote:
My problems are: 3 rax reaper on Orbital Shipyard ( yeah I open gas first, I use scv to buffer and micro the hell out and still lose ) and zerg in prion terraces... what build do you guys do in this map? I find very hard to win against zerg in this map. gas first should definetly beat 3 rax reapers. what build do you do?
What's the best way to deal with Reapers assuming you open Reaper yourself (not gas first?)
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How to deal with ultras late game, as bio? I used to just swap 2-3 of my barracks to tl and pump marauders, as well as simcitying in front of my base but that does nothing anymore apparently. Am I just SIL trying to play bio against t3 zerg now? Even with 50+ 3-3 marines stim, an ultra takes like 20 second to die. (E: 50 3-3 marines trades evenly with 2 6-3 ultras, assuming the terran focus fires one)
Tanks don't really feel like a viable answer, and liberators are a little off the tech path to feel comfortable.
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Canada8157 Posts
Ghost snipe is pretty good, 3 snipes and they're dead
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On March 11 2016 12:19 themaskedugly wrote:
How to deal with ultras late game, as bio? I used to just swap 2-3 of my barracks to tl and pump marauders, as well as simcitying in front of my base but that does nothing anymore apparently. Am I just SIL trying to play bio against t3 zerg now? Even with 50+ 3-3 marines stim, an ultra takes like 20 second to die. (E: 50 3-3 marines trades evenly with 2 6-3 ultras, assuming the terran focus fires one)
Tanks don't really feel like a viable answer, and liberators are a little off the tech path to feel comfortable.
I just mass liberators at some point.
With bio tanks vs roach ravagers you can't really take a straight up fight. You're forced into dropping like an idiot for a good part of mid game, and you can push out if you feel like you've got a timing. When the ultras are out, you should be on 4 bases and you continue to drop drop drop while landing 1-2 additionnal starport.
With a few tanks, a good amount of liberators and bio under it you can pretty much destroy any ultra army zerg does. You still can't push out, but you can hold your line while you spamm drops.
Ghosts are OK but they're a lot less versatile than liberators.
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On March 11 2016 12:19 themaskedugly wrote:
How to deal with ultras late game, as bio? I used to just swap 2-3 of my barracks to tl and pump marauders, as well as simcitying in front of my base but that does nothing anymore apparently. Am I just SIL trying to play bio against t3 zerg now? Even with 50+ 3-3 marines stim, an ultra takes like 20 second to die. (E: 50 3-3 marines trades evenly with 2 6-3 ultras, assuming the terran focus fires one)
Tanks don't really feel like a viable answer, and liberators are a little off the tech path to feel comfortable.
I know Jer99 says to use ghosts, and that's the technically correct solution, but given that you are most likely too low level and too slow to ever properly move out with ghosts, I would recommend you avoid them and stick with defending with simcity+tanks+liberators.
The way I see it is that unless you are really high level, ghosts are simply not going to be worth it. I'm mid to high masters and even I can't use ghosts effectively enough that they seem worth it to me. If you build ghosts, you commit to a more low-mobility game, more focused on large fights, and unless you are actually good with ghosts, you will probably lose the fights with or without them. They are tough to use and they will detract from your bio control. You have to be very good with them for your relative lack of splitting (which even happened to Taeja in HotS and happens to Byun now) to be offset by the damage you do with the ghosts. Better to make a deliberate decision to constantly counterattack while defending at home and commit fully to that style. It's the same logic behind much of Polt and Maru's play--why commit to deathball vs deathball when you will lose anyway? Instead just commit fully to counterattacking and do much better.
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On March 11 2016 00:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2016 19:16 QzYSc2 wrote:On March 08 2016 09:40 CharAznable2 wrote:
My problems are: 3 rax reaper on Orbital Shipyard ( yeah I open gas first, I use scv to buffer and micro the hell out and still lose ) and zerg in prion terraces... what build do you guys do in this map? I find very hard to win against zerg in this map. gas first should definetly beat 3 rax reapers. what build do you do? What's the best way to deal with Reapers assuming you open Reaper yourself (not gas first?)
i don't know if its the best way, but i 17 scv scout straight to his main (18 comes too late).
against 2-3 rax proxy don't expand, i drop a 2nd barracks, and a bunker with 1 marine in it, factory afterwards. keep pumping marines, never make a reactor. because if you hold he will have no production (2-3 flying rax towards his main) i pull like 2-3 scv to buffer until my hellion is out. most of it comes down to micro really.
against 2 rax in his main, i just reaper expand normally, factory, bunker, gas. no scv pull unless i mismicro.
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On March 11 2016 14:52 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2016 12:19 themaskedugly wrote:
How to deal with ultras late game, as bio? I used to just swap 2-3 of my barracks to tl and pump marauders, as well as simcitying in front of my base but that does nothing anymore apparently. Am I just SIL trying to play bio against t3 zerg now? Even with 50+ 3-3 marines stim, an ultra takes like 20 second to die. (E: 50 3-3 marines trades evenly with 2 6-3 ultras, assuming the terran focus fires one)
Tanks don't really feel like a viable answer, and liberators are a little off the tech path to feel comfortable.
I know Jer99 says to use ghosts, and that's the technically correct solution, but given that you are most likely too low level and too slow to ever properly move out with ghosts, I would recommend you avoid them and stick with defending with simcity+tanks+liberators. The way I see it is that unless you are really high level, ghosts are simply not going to be worth it. I'm mid to high masters and even I can't use ghosts effectively enough that they seem worth it to me. If you build ghosts, you commit to a more low-mobility game, more focused on large fights, and unless you are actually good with ghosts, you will probably lose the fights with or without them. They are tough to use and they will detract from your bio control. You have to be very good with them for your relative lack of splitting (which even happened to Taeja in HotS and happens to Byun now) to be offset by the damage you do with the ghosts. Better to make a deliberate decision to constantly counterattack while defending at home and commit fully to that style. It's the same logic behind much of Polt and Maru's play--why commit to deathball vs deathball when you will lose anyway? Instead just commit fully to counterattacking and do much better.
In my experience pure bio ghost doesn't work because the zerg will just fungal the ghosts and you lose.
You need liberators to zone the infestors out.
Of course it's extremely hard to be aggressive with such an army so you should play mainly defensive and tear him apart with drops.
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Hi
So, i might have problem in TvT (http://imgur.com/EflEvtv) so i'm wondering if anyone has a safe build that doesnt die immediatly to any attacks, like i'm used to.
Additionaly, why is there no protoss on high diamond ladder ? i've played one of them in the last 20 or so matches
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On March 16 2016 04:32 oGoZenob wrote:
Additionaly, why is there no protoss on high diamond ladder ? i've played one of them in the last 20 or so matches
I'm not sure why that's a thing. Maybe Protoss gets more common at the very highest and lowest levels? I'm hovering around the plat/diamond border atm and I get almost exclusively TvT and TvZ. It gets pretty boring after a while. But it was similar for me in HotS already (TvP was my best matchup and the one I got least, the rage) and I always wondered why.
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France12886 Posts
On March 11 2016 12:19 themaskedugly wrote:
How to deal with ultras late game, as bio? I used to just swap 2-3 of my barracks to tl and pump marauders, as well as simcitying in front of my base but that does nothing anymore apparently. Am I just SIL trying to play bio against t3 zerg now? Even with 50+ 3-3 marines stim, an ultra takes like 20 second to die. (E: 50 3-3 marines trades evenly with 2 6-3 ultras, assuming the terran focus fires one)
Tanks don't really feel like a viable answer, and liberators are a little off the tech path to feel comfortable.
Try 2 starports (so only one factory for the midgame), get liberator range relatively early and then switch to double reactor, forget ghosts exist, use some liberators for harass and some with your main army.
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Playing top masters/GM players as Terran, I play a LOT of protosses.
Sad thing is I can't figure out this matchup. You can't really drop/split push because of adept warpins/overcharge, the adept harass is incredibly punishing, I don't feel you have any agressive option early game that doesn't rely on moving out at the risk of loosing 15 scvs to a 4 adept prism.
I don't see what to do, which is kinda bothering me.
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Not sure if that helps you Jack:
What i normally do is a 2WM 4 Marine Medivac drop onto the ramp towards the natural. At least on maps with a pocket natural. When i hit, most Protoss dont have a pylon at their natural and the MSC is quite useless, you can deal a lot of dmg, and because of reactor rax and the wms you are safe vs oracle stuff.
I am not quite sure about the timing of the adept prism, so, you would need to figure this out yourself. Maybe i hit before, maybe after that timing, not sure. I do SCV scout when i start my rax (SCV out of the CC) and the reactor asap, so yeah i play without reaper. Can't scout enough with it anyways. I only do confirm that the P is getting a 2nd Nexus, so i know if there is either a 1 base robo or stargate play. So far it works quite well for me (Masterleague).
And my typical plan for TvP is in most games, pure marine medic (6 max) and then libs and later ghosts. I feel the same, you can't dropplay with only 1-2 medics. But what you can do later on is get 4 medics and 2-4 libs for one drop. Siege at a nice position in his main, and kill pylons and tech buildings. Try to avoid the Tempest and go for, more libs or vikings. Most of my games nowadays in TvP i have to be passive, try to get maxed at 3 base and move out, take 4th behind (160-180 supply i guess) go for ghosts. Ofc you can drop sometimes with 1 medic. you wont deal dmg, but you can scout with it, his army, maybe, and his techchoice, so you know if it is HT, Disruptor or Colossus.
Hope it helps you, if not, sry 
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i love how the main post (imo the most helpfull one) hasn't been updates since nov 18 '15
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On March 16 2016 17:11 AleXusher wrote:Not sure if that helps you Jack: What i normally do is a 2WM 4 Marine Medivac drop onto the ramp towards the natural. At least on maps with a pocket natural. When i hit, most Protoss dont have a pylon at their natural and the MSC is quite useless, you can deal a lot of dmg, and because of reactor rax and the wms you are safe vs oracle stuff. I am not quite sure about the timing of the adept prism, so, you would need to figure this out yourself. Maybe i hit before, maybe after that timing, not sure. I do SCV scout when i start my rax (SCV out of the CC) and the reactor asap, so yeah i play without reaper. Can't scout enough with it anyways. I only do confirm that the P is getting a 2nd Nexus, so i know if there is either a 1 base robo or stargate play. So far it works quite well for me (Masterleague). And my typical plan for TvP is in most games, pure marine medic (6 max) and then libs and later ghosts. I feel the same, you can't dropplay with only 1-2 medics. But what you can do later on is get 4 medics and 2-4 libs for one drop. Siege at a nice position in his main, and kill pylons and tech buildings. Try to avoid the Tempest and go for, more libs or vikings. Most of my games nowadays in TvP i have to be passive, try to get maxed at 3 base and move out, take 4th behind (160-180 supply i guess) go for ghosts. Ofc you can drop sometimes with 1 medic. you wont deal dmg, but you can scout with it, his army, maybe, and his techchoice, so you know if it is HT, Disruptor or Colossus. Hope it helps you, if not, sry
Dumb question, but how do you survive the adept warpin if you go for 2 WM marine drop? I mean I barely survive it with 3 rax stim...
And yeah I suppose the way to go is to siege up with liberators while you get half your bio in medivacs and fly across the map to drop somewhere. It's just so frustrating not being able to move out, it's like playing mech in TvT. You wanna move out, but the moment you leave your base there's a drop, so you have to turret ring => leave few units at home, which weakens your push, therefore making your agressive windows weak as balls.
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On March 16 2016 17:26 Juice! wrote:
i love how the main post (imo the most helpfull one) hasn't been updates since nov 18 '15
it's still pretty much updated when it comes to the counter of 3 rax reapers, which is prayer
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Canada8157 Posts
Yep I need to get around to doing that
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Never had much trouble with the 3r reaper. I mean when you scv scout (flash news, you should worker scout in a mirror, which doesn't seem to be the norm), you can very easily see :
- 2 gazs but no factory : what's he doing with his gaz?
- a very early wall (you can go for a 3r reaper inbase and pay a supply to complete the wall and hide it)
from there :
- if you went for no gaz, you're dead
- if you went for reaper expand, you should queue marines after your reaper and build a factory asap
- if you went for the safe build (gaz 15, marine), you build you factory and queue reapers and hellions
- if you went for 2 rax reaper, go for a second gaz and a factory, you should be able to hold until the hellions start to get out
Going for anything but gaz 15 => facto in TvT is already a huge gamble on 2 players map or rush friendly maps.
Fun fact : 3 rax reapers counters proxy thor rush. Not the situation you'll see everyday though.
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Is pulling the boys still a thing?
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I suppose that the adept killed the SCVs trains in TvP
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EPT
