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Sissors
1395 Posts
That leaves the vast majority of games, where I feel it is really dangerous to try to move anywhere with mech in the mid game. Depending on which playstyle you have you can try to harras him with hellions (assuming he has no roaches) or things like thor drops, but again, in general I would advice to also get your third up. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On February 09 2016 02:21 MockHamill wrote: When going mech is it worth it to try to punish a Zerg from taking a greedy third? Intuitively the answer should be yes since if Zerg build drones uncontested his economy grows too strong. But my win rate is actually much higher if I do not attack at all and instead try to match his greed by building a third immediately inside my main and then go up to 4 gases as fast as possible. This is only Diamond level though so I am not sure if it will work higher up. So which of these responses is actually correct one, pressure Zergs third or match greed with greed? Mech is the one build that can't punish fast thirds in the main. You can hellion drop, hellbat drop, mine drop, lib harass, tankivac harass, hellion harass. These can all even up economy or put you in the lead. Actually killing a fast third is out of the reach of TvZ mech for all but the greediest of zergs droning. I should add the builds designed to kill fast thirds right now are basically bio allins of various flavors. I don't mean to suggest that everybody but mech has an easy time of it. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On February 09 2016 02:21 MockHamill wrote: When going mech is it worth it to try to punish a Zerg from taking a greedy third? Intuitively the answer should be yes since if Zerg build drones uncontested his economy grows too strong. But my win rate is actually much higher if I do not attack at all and instead try to match his greed by building a third immediately inside my main and then go up to 4 gases as fast as possible. This is only Diamond level though so I am not sure if it will work higher up. So which of these responses is actually correct one, pressure Zergs third or match greed with greed? You can't kill the third but you can absolutely put on aggressive pressure to kill drones--banshees, liberators, threaten hellion runbys. And you should be very greedy behind it. Although that's only applicable if zerg is absurdly greedy, like hatch-pool-hatch no gas or something like that. If they get a "fast" third at 3:00 then you should play normally, cutting corners if possible. If you are using a good build then you won't fall behind against any remotely safe zerg build. Side note: push up the timing of your third as much as possible; if you can afford it earlier, than build it then. You don't ever gain that much by delaying it, since you should be able to afford everything you are getting anyway, even with the third. If you can't, then you should refine your build. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
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EatingBomber
1017 Posts
On February 11 2016 15:11 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Has anyone had any luck dealing with the warp prism+disruptor opening? I find I can usually react quickly enough to save most of my scvs but it seems inevitable that it does some damage. But it totally removes the possibility of doing any damage with a pre-stim ground army, so Protoss always seems to get their third base up insanely early and I can't do anything about it, because i just get picked apart if I move across the map. I think Stimpack timings are highly effective against such a build. Protoss invested a large amount of resources (and time)/ into building that Disruptor and Warp Prism, while the searching Prism speed. Thus, he should not have a large amount of Stalkers/Adepts/Sentries that can easily deflect your push. Assuming a 3 Barracks/2-1-1 opening, you should hit him with a large amount of bio troops while his Prism is out on the map. | ||
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EatingBomber
1017 Posts
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Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
i'ld love to study some to get better but can't seem to find any Every terran (demuslim, htomario, avilo, ...) only give their replays to subs but i can't convince my parents to do that  | ||
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TheFreemind
4 Posts
The patch really helped me to survive the earlygame better, but my winrate is still suffering very bad (around 35-40%, vs T 55%, vs z 75%)! Due to the patch very few P are now allining. Its the other way around, P is playing super greedy, but i dont know how to punish it. Any suggestions? So i go greedy myself, but it feels like toss can react faster to that. Put 5 more gates down and pressure the Terran hard. I can barely hold my 3rd, than comes a warp prism in my base and does more damage and brings me even more behind. It feels like pressuring the toss with drops is not worth it anymore. There are expecting it and they have most of the time 1 cannon and photon overcharge to buy enough time to react to my drop. I normally start dropping when is gets his fourth base. But my biggest problem is, how hard the late game is for me. How do u guys do it? Is focusing on liberator still the way to go? I am not sure? There are so many SG-builds out there, that it feels like liberator are not the best solution anymore. I try to get earlier ghost and if i have around 4-5 ghost i go into liberator production. So most of my games i get to the 200 vs 200 fights. But man its hard. My mechanics suck. Most of the time emp lands and than i get impatient and attack. The P often has 1-2 storms left, which is enough to win him the fight. Same is with disrupter shots. One mistake and i lose 20-30 supply and he wins the fight. So are there any good new builds out there? The streams i see, the T is having the same problems (uthermal, HTOmario). I would love to see some replays how u guys deal with P. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
My thought is this: why base the opener around what used to be done when the economy is just so different? With how crazy early mineral income is compared to HotS wouldn't something a little more like a four rax opener be more equivalent to the hots three rax opener? I don't know Protoss build orders but I assume people are throwing down more early gates when they want to really pump out units and be aggressive than they did in HotS simply because the economy is exceptionally different. Yes you delay tech but in reality the real work force of our army is the actual bio. When you get the starport tech up it doesn't really take too much time to get the medivac count up than later Liberators. Of course we like to be able to do things such as drop but if our goal was an army able to engage head on very earlyish ala a stim timing that could roll the opponent like an older 3 rax timing why not go for something that makes a little more sense given the entirely different game. | ||
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Liox
Germany47 Posts
Remember that you, while having a higher worker count at the start, also mine out the bases a lot faster than we were used to in HotS. At least that's what I experienced so far. Edit: Here is a game of Polt playing a 3 rax opener: | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
i like going reaper expand into 2-1-1 vs protoss. widow mine drop into 1 liberator into stim timing forces alot of proper reactions from the protoss. they need an obs for detection, an effective way to deal with the liberator (blink, well placed pylons or stargate), and a bunch of units to defend the stim timing, especially with the nerfed PO spam. the build is not yet refined, i was tired and played like shit. Lots of supply blocks and was like 10 secs afk at start in one of the games lol. So there is alot of room for improvement, but just to give you a general idea. some replays: http://replays.sc/738 http://replays.sc/740 http://replays.sc/741 http://replays.sc/742 | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
Also, is there a way to make a comeback when behind vs a muta switch after a relatively successful ravager+lings allin/push? I didn't play much HotS with the muta buff so I'm not sure how to defend properly but they just feel unkillable with the regen :/. | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
and to your question, i think if you aren't terribly far behind anything is possible. with good micro, or finding an opening to his economy, or if you manage to max out while playing defensive. it's a bit hard to answer since its all situational. | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
what is generally the best way to counter this if I have opted for a 1-1-1 build? Lets say I have build my barracks and I scout my opponent is doing 3-baracks. I assume I add my factory and start producing marines one at a time. I usually opt to go for Marines + Hellions with Banshee tech and a delayed expansion. However I find that 3-rax reapers easily identifys the Banshee (and it comes quite late) I am very vurnearble for reapers (they have so many so fast). Even if I take little damage, my banshee arrives to 3-4 turrets and an expo. My opponent have stim faster, and so on. I feel like I am doing something like.. Really wrong. Teching to banshee seems to be a bad way of punishing the 3-rax. Anyone has suggestions on how they play vs higher ranked opponents with good controll? 2 Hellions and like 6 marines vs 6-8 reapers tend to be problematic for me atleast. | ||
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
Tank push hik and deny his expansions while you go triple CC yourself and get a better economy going. Banhsees and tanks work pretty well if he has no viking because anytime the marines run to youe banshee they will eat a tank shot. If you scout and dont take alot of damage to at least keep it even then you can win the game with this push or at least make a game out of it. Remember you can wall the top of your ramp to force him to engage in one spot. I always open mine first in TvT so I use the mine to get the free shot off and then pull it back to safety behind the wall. Losing 3 scvs to keep your units alive is also fine. Hope it helps | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I have experimented with lots of different styles including mech and air but it seems marine/tank or marine/liberator or marine/tank/liberator works best. But what is the standard go-to composition now? | ||
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Poopi
France13023 Posts
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RandomAccount#216215
76 Posts
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
You need to constantly leap frog forward with liberators and keep the bio underneath so he cant pick them off. Ghosts for High templar and archons aswell and its just a game of outplaying your opponent. Sending drops out helps divert their attention but bear in mind they probably have a warp prism flying to your base too. In the early mid game marine tank medivac is quite good vs adepts if they have no support. A few tanks in general really help out vs most things for the whole game. Especially in securing your third base. The gsl games Taeja had vs Blaze showcase good army compositions and how to engage effectively | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
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