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On December 04 2014 22:12 EndOfLineTv wrote:
You should really express this build by build supply. It will make it way easier to follow. When do you land your third btw?
If you lose units or have a slipup in macro, supplynumbers aren´t going to help, because everything Needs to be build ASAP after reaching x amount of ressources, so memorizing such a build in sequences/by ressources available makes much more sense imo.
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liduof may I suggest you edit your original post regarding these matters:
-Bold the "2 base 7 roach" strategy.
-Attach a picture of what the 1 front bunker 3 back bunkers and the widow mine placement should look like for the "9:00 baneling roach all in". [More specifically, I am having trouble visualizing this quote "position 2 mines 2 grids away front of your wall to prevent baneling AOE dmg. 2 mines between bunkers where zerg have to cluster through the busted breach."]
-Add in the full word for "AOE" & "F2A" abbreviations.
Thank you!
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On December 04 2014 20:54 liduof wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 16:25 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On December 04 2014 15:36 Dan26 wrote:
Don't believe me? Watch the video closely. Also, you never explained why you get the factory at 100 gas. It makes no difference, either way, your factory will be waiting for the reactor from the barracks. That makes no sense to me.
Also, you must refer to the 3rd CC as your 2nd CC. Because in a build order, it must be referred to as your 2nd CC because it is the second CC that you build. It's important to not confuse this in the context of a build order. Yes it is your 3rd CC, but is the 2nd one you build.
Factory and reactor at 150 means that your barracks is done building a reactor before your factory is finished. With 2 gases mining if you start factory at 100, and reactor with the next 50, it lines up well (less so with 1 gas), and you barely have to wait for the reactor to finish. I don't see why calling your 3rd cc the 2nd cc matters at all. If anything, that makes it more confusing as I, and probably most others, think of my 1st cc built as my second cc. Almost everyone calls it this. If you have 3CCs, it makes no sense to call the third one your 2nd CC. You wouldn't get confused by this unless you completely disregard context. It's not really a problem. Also your build order is off. You have the build going up to only 7 barracks, when it should go to 8, and recommend a second factory when that kind of playstyle doesn't fit the build at all. There aren't 6 gases for another factory + thors, there isn't a slow enough push to utilize them well, nor is there enough money to produce it with all the production you have. Furthermore, you recommend adding the second factory right when you push maxed, which doesn't make any sense, as you will be reinforcing with bio/hellbat from there on out, with no money to spare, and if you get driven back, in which case you might build thors, you have already lost the game most likely. (If you watch Bomber's games you see he only adds his fourth CC when he maxes out and floats money.) It's an almost pure bio rally push build; thors do not fit. I also disagree with your style of describing the build in general, as you need to use your 2 hellions correctly, use your first 2 medivacs/marines correctly, and push correctly on to creep. If you do this build but screw up on those then you will most likely lose; they are far more important to the build and merit much more description than other stuff you have included. Bomber wins not because his build is efficient (pretty much every pro Terran uses very efficient builds) but because he knows how to play a massively greedy style while still maintaining some map control and not dying to allins, and precisely how to maximize the specific advantages his build gives him, and cover for the specific disadvantages it has. That is the key to the build, not the exact factory timing, nor the precise placement of a certain CC. You could build all the same buildings in the same order but if you don't use your units correctly, or feel out the game correctly, you aren't playing the same build. Bomber's build and style are inseparable; you can't really have one without the other. That the difference btw high lv and low lv
I do think however that it's a lot harder to get away without doing certain higher level things with this build then a more standard one.
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On December 04 2014 22:12 EndOfLineTv wrote:
You should really express this build by build supply. It will make it way easier to follow. When do you land your third btw?
after the hellion scount, you'd have a read of your opponent. If no aggression incoming, take your third asap, escort with marines, secure with depot and widow mine.
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On December 05 2014 03:43 cythaze wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 22:12 EndOfLineTv wrote:
You should really express this build by build supply. It will make it way easier to follow. When do you land your third btw? If you lose units or have a slipup in macro, supplynumbers aren´t going to help, because everything Needs to be build ASAP after reaching x amount of ressources, so memorizing such a build in sequences/by ressources available makes much more sense imo.
Also in maps like overgrowth and merry go round where 4 closer mines are available , everything comes sooner.
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On December 05 2014 04:03 LOcDowN wrote:
liduof may I suggest you edit your original post regarding these matters:
-Bold the "2 base 7 roach" strategy.
-Attach a picture of what the 1 front bunker 3 back bunkers and the widow mine placement should look like for the "9:00 baneling roach all in". [More specifically, I am having trouble visualizing this quote "position 2 mines 2 grids away front of your wall to prevent baneling AOE dmg. 2 mines between bunkers where zerg have to cluster through the busted breach."]
-Add in the full word for "AOE" & "F2A" abbreviations.
F2A= select all troops, attack[w/o micro]
AOE = area of effect
Thank you!
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On December 05 2014 09:19 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 20:54 liduof wrote:On December 04 2014 16:25 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On December 04 2014 15:36 Dan26 wrote:
Don't believe me? Watch the video closely. Also, you never explained why you get the factory at 100 gas. It makes no difference, either way, your factory will be waiting for the reactor from the barracks. That makes no sense to me.
Also, you must refer to the 3rd CC as your 2nd CC. Because in a build order, it must be referred to as your 2nd CC because it is the second CC that you build. It's important to not confuse this in the context of a build order. Yes it is your 3rd CC, but is the 2nd one you build.
Factory and reactor at 150 means that your barracks is done building a reactor before your factory is finished. With 2 gases mining if you start factory at 100, and reactor with the next 50, it lines up well (less so with 1 gas), and you barely have to wait for the reactor to finish. I don't see why calling your 3rd cc the 2nd cc matters at all. If anything, that makes it more confusing as I, and probably most others, think of my 1st cc built as my second cc. Almost everyone calls it this. If you have 3CCs, it makes no sense to call the third one your 2nd CC. You wouldn't get confused by this unless you completely disregard context. It's not really a problem. Also your build order is off. You have the build going up to only 7 barracks, when it should go to 8, and recommend a second factory when that kind of playstyle doesn't fit the build at all. There aren't 6 gases for another factory + thors, there isn't a slow enough push to utilize them well, nor is there enough money to produce it with all the production you have. Furthermore, you recommend adding the second factory right when you push maxed, which doesn't make any sense, as you will be reinforcing with bio/hellbat from there on out, with no money to spare, and if you get driven back, in which case you might build thors, you have already lost the game most likely. (If you watch Bomber's games you see he only adds his fourth CC when he maxes out and floats money.) It's an almost pure bio rally push build; thors do not fit. I also disagree with your style of describing the build in general, as you need to use your 2 hellions correctly, use your first 2 medivacs/marines correctly, and push correctly on to creep. If you do this build but screw up on those then you will most likely lose; they are far more important to the build and merit much more description than other stuff you have included. Bomber wins not because his build is efficient (pretty much every pro Terran uses very efficient builds) but because he knows how to play a massively greedy style while still maintaining some map control and not dying to allins, and precisely how to maximize the specific advantages his build gives him, and cover for the specific disadvantages it has. That is the key to the build, not the exact factory timing, nor the precise placement of a certain CC. You could build all the same buildings in the same order but if you don't use your units correctly, or feel out the game correctly, you aren't playing the same build. Bomber's build and style are inseparable; you can't really have one without the other. That the difference btw high lv and low lv I do think however that it's a lot harder to get away without doing certain higher level things with this build then a more standard one.
True. If first medivac are not used properly and timely, Zerg may start producing army after 88 drones, and get 4 base saturation immediately when 4th are done. These medivacs can both distract zerg aggression and punish greedy droning.
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This build makes you feel so goood.. took me a bit to get it all right though.. Made me feel dominant in TvZ and thats a rare occasion, thank you sir!
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this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
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On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote:
this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first.
secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win.
If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd.
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On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote:
this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
The actual build order is
4:15 double Gas
drone until 5:30
@5:30 Roach Warren
@100gas ling speed
overlord to 84 supply
@6:30 as much roach as you can afford (8 ish),
Baneling nest
then as much lings as you can afford.
@7:40 as much banelings as you can afford (12 ish)
@8:00 bust
![[image loading]](http://cms.neotv.com.cn/uploadfile/2014/1024/20141024095837109.jpg)
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you may scout zerg 3rd at 6:00 and counter. i never did this because i had never seen this on ladder.
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On December 10 2014 22:27 liduof wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote:
this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no? first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first. secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win. If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd.
thank you so much! :D sorry if this is low lvl question:
i dont know how zergs think when they scout terran, but won't they be able to tell im going gasless and keep an eye out for 3rd cc as opposed to blindly assuming 2 base? let's say i cancel marine as he moves overlord away to start cc, as you recommend (if you can't kill overlord), then overlord peeks back in when i restart, won't it be obvious a reaper should have come out? or on certain maps he can go for gas into dead air space, and see gasless? what other tiny tips are there to reveal the least to z?
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On December 11 2014 10:49 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2014 22:27 liduof wrote:On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote:
this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no? first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first. secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win. If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd. thank you so much! :D sorry if this is low lvl question: i dont know how zergs think when they scout terran, but won't they be able to tell im going gasless and keep an eye out for 3rd cc as opposed to blindly assuming 2 base? let's say i cancel marine as he moves overlord away to start cc, as you recommend (if you can't kill overlord), then overlord peeks back in when i restart, won't it be obvious a reaper should have come out? or on certain maps he can go for gas into dead air space, and see gasless? what other tiny tips are there to reveal the least to z?
by other maps you mean cloud kingdom, luckily, on that map you can cc with 2 depots to build front wall, then bunker for 2nd layer of wall.
And there are builds that you may immediately take 2 gases after 2nd cc such as marine hellbat or hellbat banshee or hellion banshee. So when Zerg can afford an overlord to scout, it is too late to stage a banrling bust. Thus,although they know you are not going reaper, they are not sure you get a late factory..
Btw, the timing of 2nd cc tells all the stories: gasless, 1 reaper or 2 reapers
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On December 11 2014 10:49 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2014 22:27 liduof wrote:On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote:
this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no? first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first. secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win. If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd. thank you so much! :D sorry if this is low lvl question: i dont know how zergs think when they scout terran, but won't they be able to tell im going gasless and keep an eye out for 3rd cc as opposed to blindly assuming 2 base? let's say i cancel marine as he moves overlord away to start cc, as you recommend (if you can't kill overlord), then overlord peeks back in when i restart, won't it be obvious a reaper should have come out? or on certain maps he can go for gas into dead air space, and see gasless? what other tiny tips are there to reveal the least to z?
the point is, when the overlord reached your barracks, zerg extractor is seconds away from finishing. If you are not producing , they may cancel the extractor and immediately goes for 3rd. But if they had their extractor finished, he will have to choose between a useless refinery, or mine 100 gas while they dont have to get ling speed this early.
And for the 2base/3base guessing question. Let him guess, the less they see, the more timings the have to prepare. like a roach warren, early baneling nest, or even a spore/spine crawler. These little things will snowball. Also, since baneling bust against any 2-base timing build is a guaranteed failure, they are not likely to bet if you have a 3rd
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..You actually gave me reason ton go back to SC2. I gave up monthes ago because I couldnt find a way to win against zergs because of the roaches all-in against my reaper/helion 3CC build.
Could you help me training my macro ? I really want to practice it really hard, but I don't know how to.
I tried to spam builds against bots, but it doesn't really work, even if I quit and try again every time I make a mistake, I don't master the build enough. Against players on ladder, there are too many cheesy builds to deal with. Against friends/teammates, I lack some macro skills to be able to play : Because I forget things, like supply depots and marines production, if I defend or attack. But I simply don't know how to train those things : I check every replay, but everytime it's a new mistake, and it's really depressing to lose more and more games without know how to improve.
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On December 16 2014 05:17 Plantarbre wrote:
..You actually gave me reason ton go back to SC2. I gave up monthes ago because I couldnt find a way to win against zergs because of the roaches all-in against my reaper/helion 3CC build.
Could you help me training my macro ? I really want to practice it really hard, but I don't know how to.
I tried to spam builds against bots, but it doesn't really work, even if I quit and try again every time I make a mistake, I don't master the build enough. Against players on ladder, there are too many cheesy builds to deal with. Against friends/teammates, I lack some macro skills to be able to play : Because I forget things, like supply depots and marines production, if I defend or attack. But I simply don't know how to train those things : I check every replay, but everytime it's a new mistake, and it's really depressing to lose more and more games without know how to improve.
The point is, every one makes mistakes. But you have to know how to fix. For example, if you supply blocked, just make another barracks. If you factories are late, just give a barracks reactor to starport and keep factory production.
U have to know how to handle errors.
Tell yourself you are not gonna supply blocked or save minerals.
1 week ago I switch tvp opener to fast factory. I have to build and multi-task (widow mines drop at main, marine pressure at toss natural, and barracks switch addons with factory& starport then start stim/combat shield asap)
I sucked and I always had over 1500 bank. But after I put special attention, I now can manage to build and harass at the same time. My point is, dude, its about practice and force yourself to pay attention.
 GLHF
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This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
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On December 29 2014 23:43 SBGamer wrote:
This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
This is actually one of the very best builds to play against roach hydra as it gives you the ability to easily flood with bio ( marauder heavy ) + hellbats.
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some pretty eloquent explanations on the nature of various TvZ scenarios
excellent guide i hope you can continue share more knowledge.
your english is more than great too!
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EPT
