Preface: I'm not an English speaker. Sorry for typos and bad English.
8 out of 10 Pro TvZs are opened with reaper. However, it is 2 hard to scout/deny creep/ map control while at the same time seamlessly follow build order. The energy spend in multi tasking from as soon as the first reaper pop to the end of the game for a not-so-adept terran is not cost-efficient at all. Also, Reaper hellion openers are vulnerable to roach based all-ins and fast muta.
Bomber's build is a great alternative. Give up early game harassing and map control, play as greedy as possible, while at the same time stay inside(or rather at the edge )of being able to scout in time and counter any early aggression or all-ins easier than reaper hellion opener. WARNING: DO NOT RELY ON THIS BUILD IN LOWER LEVEL, where your opponent may 1/2 base baneling bust/ roach ling all in w/o knowing you have a third cc.
In China, we often give a strategy a name in KungFu according to its feature. This one is given Head-on Fight a Dragon with Regret(亢龙有悔). Reason:when you focus your strength and energy on a single powerful punch, opponent must stop everything else to counter this punch. And even if your opponent have enough to counter your punch, you can fall back (transition) ORDER
this is a very verbose guide. There's no way to give an imbabuild order. This build pushes greediness to the limit. It is able to, but hard to defend any early game aggression( b4 6 min) Everything have to be produced timely and positioned right. And seconds late may lead to failure to defend all-in.
another thing to note is that while reaper hellion into bio/mines are playing tempo, this build is more like an all-in style, but with reinforcements streaming(flooding maybe).
The kungfu name also means this is a heavy and strong punch, not light but rapid combos.
10 Depot
12 Rax (shift this scv to mine one patch at natural, then you will have 400 mines for 2nd cc)
15 Orbital
15 hold marine and start 2nd CC(*if overlord on your barracks, pretend you are producing Reaper, cancel when you put down cc @350mines, it is important on some maps. If you are not producing anything in the barracks, zerg may cancel extractor in last seconds, or if you can snipe the overlord, let the marine finish)
The overlord will know you are opened gas-less/single reaper/multiple reaper based on your 2nd CC time, so you dont have to pretend anything after you put down CC -- For zerg: CC around 3:00->gasless CC between 3:20-3:40-> single reaper (CC before 2nd depot) CC after 3:50 -> multiple reaper (CC after 2nd depot) ----
15 start marine production immediately after CC
16 2nd Depot (pull an scv to 2nd depot position immediately when you start marine, else you will be supply blocked) 20-21 queue an scv and a marine after depot finish, 3rd cc @400 hide it to confuse your opponent with potential 2 base timing.(i will explain the importance)
@4:20-30ish, 2 Refineries, Orbital @2nd CC
@150mines, 2nd barracks ->tech lab, you may have to pull scv to refineries at the same time, so pull scv several seconds before gas finish to start 2nd barracks on time.
pressure your opponent with your 4 marines to watchtower, or snipe overlord which positioned on your 3rd's side to deny possible scout. Be sure to return before ling speed. The earliest time of ling speed for a hatch first build is around 5:50
@100% orbital, bunker at back if possible(such as overgrowth, king Sejong), or front (merry go round) it hurts at this time when you have to wall with 300 or 400 mines.
@100 Gas Factory, then reactor on initial rax. do not wait until you have 150 gas to start both, faster the gases are, faster your starport will be, and more likely you can force a cancel of zerg 4th base
@100% bunker, 3rd Depot(to help wall). your bunker will finish around 6:00, put 1 marine at front as ward, 4 in bunker.
@100% tech lab on 2nd barracks, start stim
@ 80% factory, watcher marine patrol for baneing, if more lings at your front than normal, mines instead of hellion
@100% factory, switch it to reactor, initial barracks start new reactor, if no baneling scouted, 2 hellions (i will elaborate later how to use this 2 hellions), then 2 mines.
@100% factory, double Ebay, 2 more gas. 2 more depot to start wall off your natural
@Ebay +1/+1
@100 GAS(lined up with mines finish, @8:00) starport on factory reactor, factory start new reactor ( any second faster, it is more likely you can deny zerg 4th expansion)
@450 3 more rax(to 5), all reactors, start marauder production
@450 3 more rax(to 8), one tech lab 2 reactors, if you are bad at marine splitting, 2 tech labs and one reactor
mines burrow at potential lings run by path, fly your 3rd
@starport, 2 medivacs , armory( if u need some 3x3 to wall of your natural, use armory)
@medivac(9:45), deny zerg 4th (if you can deny 4th, win almost guaranteed. In GM league, it is almost impossible to avoid overlord scout of your medivac, so if you can arrive faster than baneling morph, you may end up forcing a cancel or kill a lot of free lings)
@stim, combat shield, concussive shells, @+1/+1, start +2+2 keep producing army until you reach 200, then push out (13:00 ish)
carefully parade on creep, try to trade marauders with banelings efficiently and wait for +2/+2, there's no time to wait for creep to disappear so don't even waste mule. You can deny zerg sight of your army positioning with 1 scan, and scout zerg army with another.
mines or hellbats? obviously hellbats reinforce faster and produces faster, and more useful when concave is larger or pushing on creep. for chokes or bad creep spread, use mines.
Why hide your 3rd:
there are a lot of 2 base timings, like maru's 16 marine 2 medivac 8 hellbats timing, hellion/hellbat banshee. these builds may defend any zerg all-in at low cost and lethally counterattack.
A smart zerg will not all in these 2 base build, and if their scouting is denied, neither can they drone too heavy.
for this reason, zerg will be very uncomfortable before they scouted your 3rd. Usually they have to prepare safety lings/roach warren, and this will give an edge to you.
SCOUT & Counter All-in
any 1 base or 2 base timing can be blind countered or simply abandon natural
2 base 7:00 baneling: repair your bunker until zerg have to bust it with banelings. Remeber you have to abandon 2nd, so don't hope your scvs can run away. Trade them efficiently -- as long as zerg spent all the banelings on your bunker, your main is safe. Star Bunker at main to secure, and you will have 2-4 mines ready for 2nd wave. since you have 2 rax and 1 factory, you will soon be able to retake natural.
2 base 7 roaches : repair the bunker at all cost, start a marauder when tech lab finishes.
--- for any timings beyond this point, your entire scouting are based on the 2 hellions. suicide one hellion to scout main, scout third at the same time to check drone count, save this hellion to scout 4th.
+1/+1 roach attack into roach hydra +2/+2 timing: featured by double chamber, faster lair, lack of lings and baneling nest, roach warren. if zerg has drones at 3rd, then the timing is safe, 3 tech labs on your initial 3rd, 4th and 5th barracks, non-stop marauder, cut factory production when you have enough marauder you don't even need any bunker or tanks. if no drones at 3rd, then you may expect roach came early around/before the initial marauders from your 3rd,4th and 5th rax, you may need 1-2 bunkers for safety.
fight at any time you like, and trust me you don't need tank, your upgrades is faster than roach hydra.
8:00 baneling roach all in you are dead. But this strategy is rarely known among ladder players. And this build is a extremely effective counter to CC first. In this build, a roach warren is expected at 5min and gas at 4:15. Thus if you can hide your 3rd, there's little chance your opponent would chose this build.
9:00 baneling roach all in (featured by roach warren, baneling nest, lack of creep queens evo and lair, normally nothing to stop your suicide-mission hellion) non-stop mines production, you have 1 bunker at front, build 3 more, the 3 at back should in enough distance to avoid baneling AOE , rally front bunker to an empty back bunker to evac when banelings are about to bust. Pull half a mine of scvs to repair front bunker until zerg bust it with banelings. SCV should dodge baneling bust, you have to keep them to buffer/repair back bunkers when AOE are gone. Remeber to put a starport near factory, switch when you feel you have enough mines. (personally I switch after 4 mines)
position 2 mines 2 grids away front of your wall to prevent baneling AOE dmg. 2 mines between bunkers where zerg have to cluster at the busted breach.
the key to hold this is DO NOT PANIC, follow your build order, you have more than enough to defend.
10:00 fast muta you have a lot of marines than reaper opener, and you have 2 mines, fast upgrades. Guaranteed F2A win.
The Regret(transitions)
When you start +2/+2, you will have more than enough gas for Mech +1 If you opponent goes for tons of banelings to counter, trade banelings efficiently, try to avoid fight on creep. Since zerg sacrifice muta to build such an expansive once-only army, he wants a fight more badly than you do, go back to mines, start 12th rax and 2 factories with tech lab to start Thor.
I highly advise this builds benchmarks for anybody trying to really practice just macro. As for ladder play, it might not be the best, I prefer it as a best of kinda strategy.
On December 04 2014 02:39 SC2Toastie wrote: Should be at strategy.
I highly advise this builds benchmarks for anybody trying to really practice just macro. As for ladder play, it might not be the best, I prefer it as a best of kinda strategy.
I played this at around 80% ladder win rate. It is not vulnerable to all-ins
On December 04 2014 11:22 Dan26 wrote: Hey thanks for the post, I really like this build because It's definitely the greediest I've seen! My go to TvZ build is 3OC Hellion which get's 200/200 by just after 14 minutes. It's the CC first/Rax/Gas build.
Anyway while I like your verbose description I felt a imbabuild style build order needed to be made so here is my compressed build order of Bomber's build without the fluff:
Bomber's 3OC Greedy TvZ Build (If you have a better name I'd love to hear it)
Army units and move out timings are up to you, generally speaking you wanna move out around 11mins or so to clear creep, drop, or apply frontal pressure with medivacs/marines/mines and +1/+1. (Ramping up to a 2-2 timing maxed out)
10 - Supply Depot 12 - Barracks (Constant Marines) 16 - CC 16 - 2nd Supply Depot ------------------------------------------------------- Above is 1 Barracks FE ------------------------------------------------------ 22 - Build 2nd CC (Hide in main) 24 - Double Gas 26 - 2nd Barracks and Bunker @150 Gas - Factory and Reactor on 1st Barracks @100% 2nd Rax, Tech Lab @100% Reactor, Swap Factory on Reactor, Barracks start new Reactor. > Build 2 Hellions, then 2 Mines @100% Tech Lab, Research Stim 38 - 3rd Supply Depot (After this point you'll be building 2-3 Depots at a time immediately) @300min, Double ebay + Double Gas at Natural @100% ebays, Research +1/+1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @100% 2 Mines, start new Reactor on Factory, and build a Starport. @100% Stim, Combat Shields @50% +1/+1, Build an Armory, and as money allows add +3 More Barracks (5 Rax) @100% Starport, build double Medivacs Research Concussive Shells when you can @~9:15-9:30, Float your 3rd CC to take your 3rd base. > Add 2 more Rax to make 7 as you take your 3rd.
Later on around ~13:00, add a second Factory to research Drilling Claws and Produce Thor's if needed.
Here is a replay of me executing the build (NB: Some macro mistakes e.g. small delays on my production cycles delay my max out a bit, but nonetheless, executed solidly)
http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/5639757 **EDIT** Please note I delayed my WM production alot because I kept my Factory as a reactor whore for longer than normal so I could produce more marines... Looking back I would prefer to have been building Widow mines but sometimes I feel I have way too many Widow mines.
Some bugs: 2nd CC on natural ,not main. 1st marine start after 2nd cc @100gas factory not 150 @starport ,armory, it lines up with +1 Etc.. This build is too detailed there just no way to imbabuild it.
On December 04 2014 08:01 yubo56 wrote: I definitely don't have the macro for this build, but +1 for the guide!! Very happy to see this holy grail of macro be dissected
Try it and you will find the magic. No reaper and no hellions to micro so you can focus on your build. the only time you take the camera away from your base is when hellion on suicide scouting mission. Again you need around 100 games to perfect it. Then you may crush any non-top masters @non-kr server with F2A
On December 04 2014 08:01 yubo56 wrote: I definitely don't have the macro for this build, but +1 for the guide!! Very happy to see this holy grail of macro be dissected
yup I played like 300 games. My SC instructor, a pro in China, around GM 50 in KR, also give me a lot of help
Don't believe me? Watch the video closely. Also, you never explained why you get the factory at 100 gas. It makes no difference, either way, your factory will be waiting for the reactor from the barracks. That makes no sense to me.
Also, you must refer to the 3rd CC as your 2nd CC. Because in a build order, it must be referred to as your 2nd CC because it is the second CC that you build. It's important to not confuse this in the context of a build order. Yes it is your 3rd CC, but is the 2nd one you build.
Factory and reactor at 150 means that your barracks is done building a reactor before your factory is finished. With 2 gases mining if you start factory at 100, and reactor with the next 50, it lines up well (less so with 1 gas), and you barely have to wait for the reactor to finish.
I don't see why calling your 3rd cc the 2nd cc matters at all. If anything, that makes it more confusing as I, and probably most others, think of my 1st cc built as my second cc. Almost everyone calls it this. If you have 3CCs, it makes no sense to call the third one your 2nd CC. You wouldn't get confused by this unless you completely disregard context. It's not really a problem.
Also your build order is off. You have the build going up to only 7 barracks, when it should go to 8, and recommend a second factory when that kind of playstyle doesn't fit the build at all. There aren't 6 gases for another factory + thors, there isn't a slow enough push to utilize them well, nor is there enough money to produce it with all the production you have. Furthermore, you recommend adding the second factory right when you push maxed, which doesn't make any sense, as you will be reinforcing with bio/hellbat from there on out, with no money to spare, and if you get driven back, in which case you might build thors, you have already lost the game most likely. (If you watch Bomber's games you see he only adds his fourth CC when he maxes out and floats money.) It's an almost pure bio rally push build; thors do not fit.
I also disagree with your style of describing the build in general, as you need to use your 2 hellions correctly, use your first 2 medivacs/marines correctly, and push correctly on to creep. If you do this build but screw up on those then you will most likely lose; they are far more important to the build and merit much more description than other stuff you have included. Bomber wins not because his build is efficient (pretty much every pro Terran uses very efficient builds) but because he knows how to play a massively greedy style while still maintaining some map control and not dying to allins, and precisely how to maximize the specific advantages his build gives him, and cover for the specific disadvantages it has. That is the key to the build, not the exact factory timing, nor the precise placement of a certain CC. You could build all the same buildings in the same order but if you don't use your units correctly, or feel out the game correctly, you aren't playing the same build. Bomber's build and style are inseparable; you can't really have one without the other.
Don't believe me? Watch the video closely. Also, you never explained why you get the factory at 100 gas. It makes no difference, either way, your factory will be waiting for the reactor from the barracks. That makes no sense to me.
Also, you must refer to the 3rd CC as your 2nd CC. Because in a build order, it must be referred to as your 2nd CC because it is the second CC that you build. It's important to not confuse this in the context of a build order. Yes it is your 3rd CC, but is the 2nd one you build.
Factory and reactor at 150 means that your barracks is done building a reactor before your factory is finished. With 2 gases mining if you start factory at 100, and reactor with the next 50, it lines up well (less so with 1 gas), and you barely have to wait for the reactor to finish.
I don't see why calling your 3rd cc the 2nd cc matters at all. If anything, that makes it more confusing as I, and probably most others, think of my 1st cc built as my second cc. Almost everyone calls it this. If you have 3CCs, it makes no sense to call the third one your 2nd CC. You wouldn't get confused by this unless you completely disregard context. It's not really a problem.
Also your build order is off. You have the build going up to only 7 barracks, when it should go to 8, and recommend a second factory when that kind of playstyle doesn't fit the build at all. There aren't 6 gases for another factory + thors, there isn't a slow enough push to utilize them well, nor is there enough money to produce it with all the production you have. Furthermore, you recommend adding the second factory right when you push maxed, which doesn't make any sense, as you will be reinforcing with bio/hellbat from there on out, with no money to spare, and if you get driven back, in which case you might build thors, you have already lost the game most likely. (If you watch Bomber's games you see he only adds his fourth CC when he maxes out and floats money.) It's an almost pure bio rally push build; thors do not fit.
I also disagree with your style of describing the build in general, as you need to use your 2 hellions correctly, use your first 2 medivacs/marines correctly, and push correctly on to creep. If you do this build but screw up on those then you will most likely lose; they are far more important to the build and merit much more description than other stuff you have included. Bomber wins not because his build is efficient (pretty much every pro Terran uses very efficient builds) but because he knows how to play a massively greedy style while still maintaining some map control and not dying to allins, and precisely how to maximize the specific advantages his build gives him, and cover for the specific disadvantages it has. That is the key to the build, not the exact factory timing, nor the precise placement of a certain CC. You could build all the same buildings in the same order but if you don't use your units correctly, or feel out the game correctly, you aren't playing the same build. Bomber's build and style are inseparable; you can't really have one without the other.
Thank you liduof for the TvZ guide! To the poster above, why don't you just watch the actual matches he referenced and answer your own questions. He already did the majority of the hard works.
On December 04 2014 22:12 EndOfLineTv wrote: You should really express this build by build supply. It will make it way easier to follow. When do you land your third btw?
If you lose units or have a slipup in macro, supplynumbers aren´t going to help, because everything Needs to be build ASAP after reaching x amount of ressources, so memorizing such a build in sequences/by ressources available makes much more sense imo.
liduof may I suggest you edit your original post regarding these matters:
-Bold the "2 base 7 roach" strategy.
-Attach a picture of what the 1 front bunker 3 back bunkers and the widow mine placement should look like for the "9:00 baneling roach all in". [More specifically, I am having trouble visualizing this quote "position 2 mines 2 grids away front of your wall to prevent baneling AOE dmg. 2 mines between bunkers where zerg have to cluster through the busted breach."]
-Add in the full word for "AOE" & "F2A" abbreviations.
Don't believe me? Watch the video closely. Also, you never explained why you get the factory at 100 gas. It makes no difference, either way, your factory will be waiting for the reactor from the barracks. That makes no sense to me.
Also, you must refer to the 3rd CC as your 2nd CC. Because in a build order, it must be referred to as your 2nd CC because it is the second CC that you build. It's important to not confuse this in the context of a build order. Yes it is your 3rd CC, but is the 2nd one you build.
Factory and reactor at 150 means that your barracks is done building a reactor before your factory is finished. With 2 gases mining if you start factory at 100, and reactor with the next 50, it lines up well (less so with 1 gas), and you barely have to wait for the reactor to finish.
I don't see why calling your 3rd cc the 2nd cc matters at all. If anything, that makes it more confusing as I, and probably most others, think of my 1st cc built as my second cc. Almost everyone calls it this. If you have 3CCs, it makes no sense to call the third one your 2nd CC. You wouldn't get confused by this unless you completely disregard context. It's not really a problem.
Also your build order is off. You have the build going up to only 7 barracks, when it should go to 8, and recommend a second factory when that kind of playstyle doesn't fit the build at all. There aren't 6 gases for another factory + thors, there isn't a slow enough push to utilize them well, nor is there enough money to produce it with all the production you have. Furthermore, you recommend adding the second factory right when you push maxed, which doesn't make any sense, as you will be reinforcing with bio/hellbat from there on out, with no money to spare, and if you get driven back, in which case you might build thors, you have already lost the game most likely. (If you watch Bomber's games you see he only adds his fourth CC when he maxes out and floats money.) It's an almost pure bio rally push build; thors do not fit.
I also disagree with your style of describing the build in general, as you need to use your 2 hellions correctly, use your first 2 medivacs/marines correctly, and push correctly on to creep. If you do this build but screw up on those then you will most likely lose; they are far more important to the build and merit much more description than other stuff you have included. Bomber wins not because his build is efficient (pretty much every pro Terran uses very efficient builds) but because he knows how to play a massively greedy style while still maintaining some map control and not dying to allins, and precisely how to maximize the specific advantages his build gives him, and cover for the specific disadvantages it has. That is the key to the build, not the exact factory timing, nor the precise placement of a certain CC. You could build all the same buildings in the same order but if you don't use your units correctly, or feel out the game correctly, you aren't playing the same build. Bomber's build and style are inseparable; you can't really have one without the other.
That the difference btw high lv and low lv
I do think however that it's a lot harder to get away without doing certain higher level things with this build then a more standard one.
On December 04 2014 22:12 EndOfLineTv wrote: You should really express this build by build supply. It will make it way easier to follow. When do you land your third btw?
after the hellion scount, you'd have a read of your opponent. If no aggression incoming, take your third asap, escort with marines, secure with depot and widow mine.
On December 04 2014 22:12 EndOfLineTv wrote: You should really express this build by build supply. It will make it way easier to follow. When do you land your third btw?
If you lose units or have a slipup in macro, supplynumbers aren´t going to help, because everything Needs to be build ASAP after reaching x amount of ressources, so memorizing such a build in sequences/by ressources available makes much more sense imo.
Also in maps like overgrowth and merry go round where 4 closer mines are available , everything comes sooner.
On December 05 2014 04:03 LOcDowN wrote: liduof may I suggest you edit your original post regarding these matters:
-Bold the "2 base 7 roach" strategy.
-Attach a picture of what the 1 front bunker 3 back bunkers and the widow mine placement should look like for the "9:00 baneling roach all in". [More specifically, I am having trouble visualizing this quote "position 2 mines 2 grids away front of your wall to prevent baneling AOE dmg. 2 mines between bunkers where zerg have to cluster through the busted breach."]
-Add in the full word for "AOE" & "F2A" abbreviations.
F2A= select all troops, attack[w/o micro] AOE = area of effect
Don't believe me? Watch the video closely. Also, you never explained why you get the factory at 100 gas. It makes no difference, either way, your factory will be waiting for the reactor from the barracks. That makes no sense to me.
Also, you must refer to the 3rd CC as your 2nd CC. Because in a build order, it must be referred to as your 2nd CC because it is the second CC that you build. It's important to not confuse this in the context of a build order. Yes it is your 3rd CC, but is the 2nd one you build.
Factory and reactor at 150 means that your barracks is done building a reactor before your factory is finished. With 2 gases mining if you start factory at 100, and reactor with the next 50, it lines up well (less so with 1 gas), and you barely have to wait for the reactor to finish.
I don't see why calling your 3rd cc the 2nd cc matters at all. If anything, that makes it more confusing as I, and probably most others, think of my 1st cc built as my second cc. Almost everyone calls it this. If you have 3CCs, it makes no sense to call the third one your 2nd CC. You wouldn't get confused by this unless you completely disregard context. It's not really a problem.
Also your build order is off. You have the build going up to only 7 barracks, when it should go to 8, and recommend a second factory when that kind of playstyle doesn't fit the build at all. There aren't 6 gases for another factory + thors, there isn't a slow enough push to utilize them well, nor is there enough money to produce it with all the production you have. Furthermore, you recommend adding the second factory right when you push maxed, which doesn't make any sense, as you will be reinforcing with bio/hellbat from there on out, with no money to spare, and if you get driven back, in which case you might build thors, you have already lost the game most likely. (If you watch Bomber's games you see he only adds his fourth CC when he maxes out and floats money.) It's an almost pure bio rally push build; thors do not fit.
I also disagree with your style of describing the build in general, as you need to use your 2 hellions correctly, use your first 2 medivacs/marines correctly, and push correctly on to creep. If you do this build but screw up on those then you will most likely lose; they are far more important to the build and merit much more description than other stuff you have included. Bomber wins not because his build is efficient (pretty much every pro Terran uses very efficient builds) but because he knows how to play a massively greedy style while still maintaining some map control and not dying to allins, and precisely how to maximize the specific advantages his build gives him, and cover for the specific disadvantages it has. That is the key to the build, not the exact factory timing, nor the precise placement of a certain CC. You could build all the same buildings in the same order but if you don't use your units correctly, or feel out the game correctly, you aren't playing the same build. Bomber's build and style are inseparable; you can't really have one without the other.
That the difference btw high lv and low lv
I do think however that it's a lot harder to get away without doing certain higher level things with this build then a more standard one.
True. If first medivac are not used properly and timely, Zerg may start producing army after 88 drones, and get 4 base saturation immediately when 4th are done. These medivacs can both distract zerg aggression and punish greedy droning.
this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote: this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first. secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win. If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd.
On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote: this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
The actual build order is 4:15 double Gas drone until 5:30 @5:30 Roach Warren @100gas ling speed overlord to 84 supply @6:30 as much roach as you can afford (8 ish), Baneling nest then as much lings as you can afford.
@7:40 as much banelings as you can afford (12 ish) @8:00 bust
----
you may scout zerg 3rd at 6:00 and counter. i never did this because i had never seen this on ladder.
On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote: this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first. secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win. If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd.
thank you so much! :D sorry if this is low lvl question: i dont know how zergs think when they scout terran, but won't they be able to tell im going gasless and keep an eye out for 3rd cc as opposed to blindly assuming 2 base? let's say i cancel marine as he moves overlord away to start cc, as you recommend (if you can't kill overlord), then overlord peeks back in when i restart, won't it be obvious a reaper should have come out? or on certain maps he can go for gas into dead air space, and see gasless? what other tiny tips are there to reveal the least to z?
On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote: this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first. secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win. If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd.
thank you so much! :D sorry if this is low lvl question: i dont know how zergs think when they scout terran, but won't they be able to tell im going gasless and keep an eye out for 3rd cc as opposed to blindly assuming 2 base? let's say i cancel marine as he moves overlord away to start cc, as you recommend (if you can't kill overlord), then overlord peeks back in when i restart, won't it be obvious a reaper should have come out? or on certain maps he can go for gas into dead air space, and see gasless? what other tiny tips are there to reveal the least to z?
by other maps you mean cloud kingdom, luckily, on that map you can cc with 2 depots to build front wall, then bunker for 2nd layer of wall. And there are builds that you may immediately take 2 gases after 2nd cc such as marine hellbat or hellbat banshee or hellion banshee. So when Zerg can afford an overlord to scout, it is too late to stage a banrling bust. Thus,although they know you are not going reaper, they are not sure you get a late factory.. Btw, the timing of 2nd cc tells all the stories: gasless, 1 reaper or 2 reapers
On December 10 2014 17:56 nath wrote: this isn't relevant until i actually hit these timings anyway but i thought i'd ask -- so you say "you die" vs the 8min roach baneling...are there any tells you can scout and adapt/change the build or no?
first of all, it is rare. This not-so-popular build are only known among top players, it works best against CC first. secondly, even if u scouted with 2 scans, it is too hard to defend. Almost a build order win. If you open w/ barracks and hide your 3rd, your opponent is not likely to bet on if you have a 3rd.
thank you so much! :D sorry if this is low lvl question: i dont know how zergs think when they scout terran, but won't they be able to tell im going gasless and keep an eye out for 3rd cc as opposed to blindly assuming 2 base? let's say i cancel marine as he moves overlord away to start cc, as you recommend (if you can't kill overlord), then overlord peeks back in when i restart, won't it be obvious a reaper should have come out? or on certain maps he can go for gas into dead air space, and see gasless? what other tiny tips are there to reveal the least to z?
the point is, when the overlord reached your barracks, zerg extractor is seconds away from finishing. If you are not producing , they may cancel the extractor and immediately goes for 3rd. But if they had their extractor finished, he will have to choose between a useless refinery, or mine 100 gas while they dont have to get ling speed this early.
And for the 2base/3base guessing question. Let him guess, the less they see, the more timings the have to prepare. like a roach warren, early baneling nest, or even a spore/spine crawler. These little things will snowball. Also, since baneling bust against any 2-base timing build is a guaranteed failure, they are not likely to bet if you have a 3rd
..You actually gave me reason ton go back to SC2. I gave up monthes ago because I couldnt find a way to win against zergs because of the roaches all-in against my reaper/helion 3CC build. Could you help me training my macro ? I really want to practice it really hard, but I don't know how to. I tried to spam builds against bots, but it doesn't really work, even if I quit and try again every time I make a mistake, I don't master the build enough. Against players on ladder, there are too many cheesy builds to deal with. Against friends/teammates, I lack some macro skills to be able to play : Because I forget things, like supply depots and marines production, if I defend or attack. But I simply don't know how to train those things : I check every replay, but everytime it's a new mistake, and it's really depressing to lose more and more games without know how to improve.
On December 16 2014 05:17 Plantarbre wrote: ..You actually gave me reason ton go back to SC2. I gave up monthes ago because I couldnt find a way to win against zergs because of the roaches all-in against my reaper/helion 3CC build. Could you help me training my macro ? I really want to practice it really hard, but I don't know how to. I tried to spam builds against bots, but it doesn't really work, even if I quit and try again every time I make a mistake, I don't master the build enough. Against players on ladder, there are too many cheesy builds to deal with. Against friends/teammates, I lack some macro skills to be able to play : Because I forget things, like supply depots and marines production, if I defend or attack. But I simply don't know how to train those things : I check every replay, but everytime it's a new mistake, and it's really depressing to lose more and more games without know how to improve.
The point is, every one makes mistakes. But you have to know how to fix. For example, if you supply blocked, just make another barracks. If you factories are late, just give a barracks reactor to starport and keep factory production. U have to know how to handle errors. Tell yourself you are not gonna supply blocked or save minerals. 1 week ago I switch tvp opener to fast factory. I have to build and multi-task (widow mines drop at main, marine pressure at toss natural, and barracks switch addons with factory& starport then start stim/combat shield asap)
I sucked and I always had over 1500 bank. But after I put special attention, I now can manage to build and harass at the same time. My point is, dude, its about practice and force yourself to pay attention.
This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
On December 29 2014 23:43 SBGamer wrote: This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
This is actually one of the very best builds to play against roach hydra as it gives you the ability to easily flood with bio ( marauder heavy ) + hellbats.
On December 29 2014 23:43 SBGamer wrote: This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
this build crash zerg ranged units for 3 reasons. 1), in the first 10min, you are building bio and mines to 100, which are better against roach than reaper hellion. and your 5 barracks finish earlier than reaper hellion build. the above will guarantee solid defense. If your micro are good, you dont even need bunker/tank/scv pull
2) your ebay starts at 7:00, there's no upgrade timing for zerg at all.
3) if zerg commit too much roach b4 11 min, your 4 medivac will be such a pain in the ass. Will have to choose between replenishing roach to defend your multi tasking medivacs before hydra, or drone and drone his 4th for macro game at the same time.
when you play this right, you will be more than happy to see any roach on the map, cauz 10 roach are much easier to deal with than 10 banelings and 10 lings which cost the same amt of resources.
On December 29 2014 23:43 SBGamer wrote: This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
This is actually one of the very best builds to play against roach hydra as it gives you the ability to easily flood with bio ( marauder heavy ) + hellbats.
when deal with roach, produce 4-6 mines to defend 1st wave then stop factory production hellbats are less useful than 2 marines or 1 marauders (assume gas is free for mid game tvz) in the mid game.
On December 29 2014 23:43 SBGamer wrote: This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
this build crash zerg ranged for 3 reasons. first, in the first 10min, you are building bio to 100, which are better against roach than reaper hellion. and your 5 barracks finish sooner than reaper hellion build. the above will enable you defend first wave of roach more than
second, your ebay starts at 7:00, there's no upgrade timing for zerg at all.
third, if zerg commit too much roach b4 11min, your 4 medivac will be such a pain in the ass, he have to choose between replenishing roach to defend your multi tasking medivacs before hydra, or drone and get a 4th for macro game at the same time.
when you play this right, you will be more than happy to see any roach on the map, cauz 10 roach are too ez to deal with than 10 banelings and 10 lings which cost the same amt of resources.
On December 29 2014 23:43 SBGamer wrote: This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
this build crash zerg ranged for 3 reasons. first, in the first 10min, you are building bio to 100, which are better against roach than reaper hellion. and your 5 barracks finish sooner than reaper hellion build. the above will enable you defend first wave of roach more than
second, your ebay starts at 7:00, there's no upgrade timing for zerg at all.
third, if zerg commit too much roach b4 11min, your 4 medivac will be such a pain in the ass, he have to choose between replenishing roach to defend your multi tasking medivacs before hydra, or drone and get a 4th for macro game at the same time.
when you play this right, you will be more than happy to see any roach on the map, cauz 10 roach are too ez to deal with than 10 banelings and 10 lings which cost the same amt of resources.
Thanks man! Good luck at WCS!
advanced to 32 now next game against former pro and even by the slightest chance I win, next round would be WCS US top 16 last season. GG
On December 29 2014 23:43 SBGamer wrote: This strat is awesome. Even though i still suck against early speedlings and roach/hydra max outs, and my macro is still bad for this thing (130-140 supply at 13 min? meh.), i have good success with it. Thanks man
this build crash zerg ranged for 3 reasons. first, in the first 10min, you are building bio to 100, which are better against roach than reaper hellion. and your 5 barracks finish sooner than reaper hellion build. the above will enable you defend first wave of roach more than
second, your ebay starts at 7:00, there's no upgrade timing for zerg at all.
third, if zerg commit too much roach b4 11min, your 4 medivac will be such a pain in the ass, he have to choose between replenishing roach to defend your multi tasking medivacs before hydra, or drone and get a 4th for macro game at the same time.
when you play this right, you will be more than happy to see any roach on the map, cauz 10 roach are too ez to deal with than 10 banelings and 10 lings which cost the same amt of resources.
Thanks for this amazingly detailed guide, it does all the thinking required for me :D. The build doesn't seem much harder than other more conventional builds, as very little multitasking is required.
However I'm a bit confused about Avast finding malware from that site where you uploaded replays. I couldn't read or understand anything and just downloaded the replays. + Show Spoiler +
On January 09 2015 01:06 Bojas wrote: Thanks for this amazingly detailed guide, it does all the thinking required for me :D. The build doesn't seem much harder than other more conventional builds, as very little multitasking is required.
However I'm a bit confused about Avast finding malware from that site where you uploaded replays. I couldn't read or understand anything and just downloaded the replays. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe it's better to upload them elsewhere?
I put reps to prove that I did manage to won a top amateur Chinese players as an underdog. Since you don't know them at all, you won't find these replays useful, because usually I cannot execute the build perfectly.
Alternatively, just watch vod of bomber vs DRG. It's more than enough for you to understand the build. You can also find bomber replays from spawningtool, under "Redbull Battleground"->"Bomber"
This is a replay of a game I played using this build vs roach hydra. I made a lot of dumb mistakes, like misplacing my first cc, and I tried to be too fancy with the overlord snipe, making my macro fall apart. This was one of the worst games I have ever played using this build.
That being said, when the zerg attacked me, we had equal army supply, but I just lost horribly, then lost my 3rd cc, and from there I would have lost the game if the zerg had spent his 2000 minerals, or even just paid attention to his upgrades, while I was spending all my money at that point. I don't understand why I lost that first fight vs roach hydra. Was it bad positioning, or just a case of having too few units?
This is a replay of a game I played using this build vs roach hydra. I made a lot of dumb mistakes, like misplacing my first cc, and I tried to be too fancy with the overlord snipe, making my macro fall apart. This was one of the worst games I have ever played using this build.
That being said, when the zerg attacked me, we had equal army supply, but I just lost horribly, then lost my 3rd cc, and from there I would have lost the game if the zerg had spent his 2000 minerals, or even just paid attention to his upgrades, while I was spending all my money at that point. I don't understand why I lost that first fight vs roach hydra. Was it bad positioning, or just a case of having too few units?
This is a replay of a game I played using this build vs roach hydra. I made a lot of dumb mistakes, like misplacing my first cc, and I tried to be too fancy with the overlord snipe, making my macro fall apart. This was one of the worst games I have ever played using this build.
That being said, when the zerg attacked me, we had equal army supply, but I just lost horribly, then lost my 3rd cc, and from there I would have lost the game if the zerg had spent his 2000 minerals, or even just paid attention to his upgrades, while I was spending all my money at that point. I don't understand why I lost that first fight vs roach hydra. Was it bad positioning, or just a case of having too few units?
first, you do not cancel a CC if you misplace a cc. you are terran, CC can fly.
second, you are not prepared for a zerg ranged combo. you have to scout.
third, you are 80 sec slower than normal on tech. At 8 minute mark, you should have 2 hellions and 2 mines just finished and start starport. and you even forget to produce medivac immediately after starport finish thus you have no medivac even in 12:30. mules should be call down as soon as you have one rdy.
normally, at 12:30, you should have an army size as big as the end of replay.
I want to thank you again for this amazing build. It's such fun to see the zerg spreading creep thinking "LOL that terran is way too passive" and then shove a big ass army in his face. :D
Also, MKP did a similar build today on GSL right? only slightly greedier
On January 10 2015 01:03 Bojas wrote: I want to thank you again for this amazing build. It's such fun to see the zerg spreading creep thinking "LOL that terran is way too passive" and then shove a big ass army in his face. :D
Also, MKP did a similar build today on GSL right? only slightly greedier
as long as you put down gas and 2nd barracks on time, you can open with CC first into 3CC.
On January 10 2015 13:22 Taefox wrote: what is F2A? please don't use those word it's not popular overall it's a great build and guide Big thanks
F2 button is the default button that select your whole army.
A means attack move.
He means that in certain situations your macro advantage is big enough that you can select your whole army and attack move and win. This works even in higher leagues.
Edit: I don't think I've ever had as much fun with a build, didn't lose with it yet while my execution is still very sub optimal. You just have soo much stuff :D. Might just leave diamond league behind for the first time after 4 years of being diamond.
On January 10 2015 13:22 Taefox wrote: what is F2A? please don't use those word it's not popular overall it's a great build and guide Big thanks
F2 button is the default button that select your whole army.
A means attack move.
He means that in certain situations your macro advantage is big enough that you can select your whole army and attack move and win. This works even in higher leagues.
Edit: I don't think I've ever had as much fun with a build, didn't lose with it yet while my execution is still very sub optimal. You just have soo much stuff :D. Might just leave diamond league behind for the first time after 4 years of being diamond.
On January 10 2015 01:03 Bojas wrote: I want to thank you again for this amazing build. It's such fun to see the zerg spreading creep thinking "LOL that terran is way too passive" and then shove a big ass army in his face. :D
Also, MKP did a similar build today on GSL right? only slightly greedier
as long as you put down gas and 2nd barracks on time, you can open with CC first into 3CC.
If you watched Snute's practice games against uThermal a couple weeks ago (from uThermal's perspective) you can see CC first into gasless 3CC into pure bio style. The build is very close to the same--it has early 2nd rax before factory, 2 hellions, 2 widow mines, a 10 minute drop, and all infrastructure added before 10 minutes. I've also adapted it myself by doing a build identical to Bomber's after the gas comes down (rax fact ebay ebay starport) but skipping the widow mines because the factory is slightly later.
On January 10 2015 01:03 Bojas wrote: I want to thank you again for this amazing build. It's such fun to see the zerg spreading creep thinking "LOL that terran is way too passive" and then shove a big ass army in his face. :D
Also, MKP did a similar build today on GSL right? only slightly greedier
as long as you put down gas and 2nd barracks on time, you can open with CC first into 3CC.
If you watched Snute's practice games against uThermal a couple weeks ago (from uThermal's perspective) you can see CC first into gasless 3CC into pure bio style. The build is very close to the same--it has early 2nd rax before factory, 2 hellions, 2 widow mines, a 10 minute drop, and all infrastructure added before 10 minutes. I've also adapted it myself by doing a build identical to Bomber's after the gas comes down (rax fact ebay ebay starport) but skipping the widow mines because the factory is slightly later.
dude that 2 widow mines is all you can count on to defend all-in for whatever reason if you did not finish them b4 8 min mark, place starport next to factory, switch after starport finish.
On January 10 2015 01:03 Bojas wrote: I want to thank you again for this amazing build. It's such fun to see the zerg spreading creep thinking "LOL that terran is way too passive" and then shove a big ass army in his face. :D
Also, MKP did a similar build today on GSL right? only slightly greedier
as long as you put down gas and 2nd barracks on time, you can open with CC first into 3CC.
If you watched Snute's practice games against uThermal a couple weeks ago (from uThermal's perspective) you can see CC first into gasless 3CC into pure bio style. The build is very close to the same--it has early 2nd rax before factory, 2 hellions, 2 widow mines, a 10 minute drop, and all infrastructure added before 10 minutes. I've also adapted it myself by doing a build identical to Bomber's after the gas comes down (rax fact ebay ebay starport) but skipping the widow mines because the factory is slightly later.
dude that 2 widow mines is all you can count on to defend all-in for whatever reason if you did not finish them b4 8 min mark, place starport next to factory, switch after starport finish.
Bomber builds the starport on the reactor that he used to make the Hellions / mines.
On January 10 2015 01:03 Bojas wrote: I want to thank you again for this amazing build. It's such fun to see the zerg spreading creep thinking "LOL that terran is way too passive" and then shove a big ass army in his face. :D
Also, MKP did a similar build today on GSL right? only slightly greedier
as long as you put down gas and 2nd barracks on time, you can open with CC first into 3CC.
If you watched Snute's practice games against uThermal a couple weeks ago (from uThermal's perspective) you can see CC first into gasless 3CC into pure bio style. The build is very close to the same--it has early 2nd rax before factory, 2 hellions, 2 widow mines, a 10 minute drop, and all infrastructure added before 10 minutes. I've also adapted it myself by doing a build identical to Bomber's after the gas comes down (rax fact ebay ebay starport) but skipping the widow mines because the factory is slightly later.
dude that 2 widow mines is all you can count on to defend all-in for whatever reason if you did not finish them b4 8 min mark, place starport next to factory, switch after starport finish.
Bomber builds the starport on the reactor that he used to make the Hellions / mines.
Yup, as long as you have 2 mines pop out b4 8:00, you may build starport on that reactor. But if you don't , you have to choose between skipping mines or put starport next to that reactor. In this case, I suggest the latter alternative. Skipping mines is too dangerous because by the time you have to start mines(hellions just pop), you have 0 scouting . 10s late on medivac(time need for switching addon) is not that big.
Above all, if you are playing in a league where 10 sec on medivac timing is THAT IMPORTANT(Korean GM 100ish), then you would have mines ready at 8:00 every game.
On December 30 2014 05:10 Gamegene wrote: some pretty eloquent explanations on the nature of various TvZ scenarios
excellent guide i hope you can continue share more knowledge.
your english is more than great too!
trying tvp builds now will share when i finalize them btw i'm in 2015 WCS China round of 64 now thanks for the support of my English lv
Hi Liduof, I'm looking forward to your guide on your TvP builds as I really enjoyed the depth and detail you provided in this one.
personally, I like 15gas build widow mine drop build Bbyong used against Zest and Parting On maps like Nimbus I'd use MKP's CC first than 3 addons before stim build. On overgrowth i pretty much use fast +1 into 13:30 all in. The matter is that in TvP you have to play reactionary. There's too much a protoss can do than zerg.
On February 17 2015 06:04 SBGamer wrote: Does actually 3rd CC - 2 Rax (3 total) - 2 Gas work? I feel like it is safer to hold all ins
The whole point of this build is to get freewins in the lategame by giving up your chances of defending a decent allin. From the OP:
WARNING: DO NOT RELY ON THIS BUILD IN LOWER LEVEL, where your opponent may 1/2 base baneling bust/ roach ling all in w/o knowing you have a third.
8:00 baneling roach all in you are dead
Without hellions/tanks/mines you are simply going to have problems against good baneling allins at that time. If you start comprimising this build however you should just play a normal 3CC with hellions instead which really can hold anything (but doesn't have a game winning midgame advantage over the zerg).
Without hellions/tanks/mines you are simply going to have problems against good baneling allins at that time. If you start comprimising this build however you should just play a normal 3CC with hellions instead which really can hold anything (but doesn't have a game winning midgame advantage over the zerg).
not exactly. Rax 3cc can defend any major all-ins, as I listed in the latter part of the guide.
On March 15 2015 14:41 AMove wrote: Could the opener work in TvP as well?
Very unlikely. Scv scout, early 3rd, almost no units in the early game. You will probably lose to most all ins and tech rushes. Unless the toss is very greedy, there is no reason to go gasless 3 base. You even need to prepare for all ins when you are building 3 rax instead of 3rd, imagine that with going earlier 3rd instead of 3 rax. I would only use gasless rax fe into 3rd when you know that your opponent is doing a greedy build (nexus first)
On March 15 2015 14:41 AMove wrote: Could the opener work in TvP as well?
I've had it work at Diamond level if the stars align correctly. If it is a rather large map like Frost or Deadwing and I have already commited at least to 1rax FE (or 14cc depending) and I can get a wall up so the Toss can't see what I'm doing behind it and I also scouted he went either Nexus first or Nexus after Gate. That is the only time I consider it. I wouldn't consider this a staple TvP but it can work as long as you can confirm many builds are not coming.
It may be a tad more powerful now (last time I did it was in the Frost map pool era) now that Blink is nerfed. That was always what I'd lose to in general with this build.
I vote that we name every strategy in a similar way - this is just too awesome : Head-on Fight a Dragon with Regret(亢龙有悔). That alone makes me want to try this build.
On March 15 2015 14:41 AMove wrote: Could the opener work in TvP as well?
not at all. you lose to any 1-base all in. any stargate build, or twilight build due to lack of scouting. and if toss scout your 3rd at 1st observer, you are facing a 2 colossi all-in(w/o any viking to defend) or a free 3rd for toss.
On March 15 2015 23:03 DeadByDawn wrote: I vote that we name every strategy in a similar way - this is just too awesome : Head-on Fight a Dragon with Regret(亢龙有悔). That alone makes me want to try this build.
On March 15 2015 14:41 AMove wrote: Could the opener work in TvP as well?
I've had it work at Diamond level if the stars align correctly. If it is a rather large map like Frost or Deadwing and I have already commited at least to 1rax FE (or 14cc depending) and I can get a wall up so the Toss can't see what I'm doing behind it and I also scouted he went either Nexus first or Nexus after Gate. That is the only time I consider it. I wouldn't consider this a staple TvP but it can work as long as you can confirm many builds are not coming.
It may be a tad more powerful now (last time I did it was in the Frost map pool era) now that Blink is nerfed. That was always what I'd lose to in general with this build.
if you really wanna be greedy, try cc first into 3rax. its safer and also give you an edge in economy, but less behind in tech than this build.
On March 15 2015 14:41 AMove wrote: Could the opener work in TvP as well?
Very unlikely. Scv scout, early 3rd, almost no units in the early game. You will probably lose to most all ins and tech rushes. Unless the toss is very greedy, there is no reason to go gasless 3 base. You even need to prepare for all ins when you are building 3 rax instead of 3rd, imagine that with going earlier 3rd instead of 3 rax. I would only use gasless rax fe into 3rd when you know that your opponent is doing a greedy build (nexus first)
if you know your opponent is doing nexus first, why not proxy 2 rax or rax expand and build a bunker at his 2nd? Toss have to wait a million years for its first nexus cannon.
On March 15 2015 14:41 AMove wrote: Could the opener work in TvP as well?
skrong vs nexus first cuz you can't do shit to protoss anyways, theoretically seems even skronger vs gateway expand cuz he can't do shit to you and expo even later. neither build from p customarily probe scouts and by the time they identify the rapid 3rd cc they can't do shit about it.
On March 15 2015 14:41 AMove wrote: Could the opener work in TvP as well?
skrong vs nexus first cuz you can't do shit to protoss anyways, theoretically seems even skronger vs gateway expand cuz he can't do shit to you and expo even later. neither build from p customarily probe scouts and by the time they identify the rapid 3rd cc they can't do shit about it.
nexus first protoss in the same bracet = dead unless terran goes on cc first. either reaper or gas first or 1-1-1 mine drop will punish toss if microed properly.
Do you think the version where you delay your 8th rax in favor of a second factory (tech-labed, building blue flame and thors later on) is better? And if so is it worth building any thors to the 13:00-13:30 push?
Feels like the 200/200 will be quite much stronger but not sure if it's worth it :S
On May 13 2015 06:09 NotTrulyEvil wrote: Do you think the version where you delay your 8th rax in favor of a second factory (tech-labed, building blue flame and thors later on) is better? And if so is it worth building any thors to the 13:00-13:30 push?
Feels like the 200/200 will be quite much stronger but not sure if it's worth it :S
I do not think there is any version with delaying 8th rax for 2nd factory. There is a version where you get a fast 2nd factory after the 1st factory with techlab for blueflame (Bomber vs Revival) and you will have lots of hellions for gaining map control and getting damage done, but this will have delayed upgrades and less bio at 13:30.
Also, getting such early 2nd factory will make you gas starved, delaying everything which costs gas (later medevacs, 2/2, marauders). I think the only time where you get your second factory would be after the 13:30 timing. Thors are worth building later on, but before the timing, it is just killing your gas, ESPECIALLY with blueflame. I would rather stick to this version without a second/third factory before 13:30.
On May 13 2015 06:09 NotTrulyEvil wrote: Do you think the version where you delay your 8th rax in favor of a second factory (tech-labed, building blue flame and thors later on) is better? And if so is it worth building any thors to the 13:00-13:30 push?
Feels like the 200/200 will be quite much stronger but not sure if it's worth it :S
I do not think there is any version with delaying 8th rax for 2nd factory. There is a version where you get a fast 2nd factory after the 1st factory with techlab for blueflame (Bomber vs Revival) and you will have lots of hellions for gaining map control and getting damage done, but this will have delayed upgrades and less bio at 13:30.
Also, getting such early 2nd factory will make you gas starved, delaying everything which costs gas (later medevacs, 2/2, marauders). I think the only time where you get your second factory would be after the 13:30 timing. Thors are worth building later on, but before the timing, it is just killing your gas, ESPECIALLY with blueflame. I would rather stick to this version without a second/third factory before 13:30.
What I find often works is to throw bio/hellbat at zerg and then once you have an advantage (you kill a base but zerg still has an army, you kill all the creep, you are trading very cost-efficiently), consolidate it with a fourth and an extra factory or two to transition into a composition with more long-term sustainability. This is especially good if you are prone to overextending with an advantage and losing the game.
On May 13 2015 06:09 NotTrulyEvil wrote: Do you think the version where you delay your 8th rax in favor of a second factory (tech-labed, building blue flame and thors later on) is better? And if so is it worth building any thors to the 13:00-13:30 push?
Feels like the 200/200 will be quite much stronger but not sure if it's worth it :S
I'd say it is possible. After all we are not bomber himself. We do not execute his build as precise as he did. So if we accidentally delayed +2 / rax / starport, built extra scv or paused medivac production, there will be extra gas for us to make thor or blue flame. Try it and tell us how did it work out
On May 13 2015 06:09 NotTrulyEvil wrote: Do you think the version where you delay your 8th rax in favor of a second factory (tech-labed, building blue flame and thors later on) is better? And if so is it worth building any thors to the 13:00-13:30 push?
Feels like the 200/200 will be quite much stronger but not sure if it's worth it :S
I do not think there is any version with delaying 8th rax for 2nd factory. There is a version where you get a fast 2nd factory after the 1st factory with techlab for blueflame (Bomber vs Revival) and you will have lots of hellions for gaining map control and getting damage done, but this will have delayed upgrades and less bio at 13:30.
Also, getting such early 2nd factory will make you gas starved, delaying everything which costs gas (later medevacs, 2/2, marauders). I think the only time where you get your second factory would be after the 13:30 timing. Thors are worth building later on, but before the timing, it is just killing your gas, ESPECIALLY with blueflame. I would rather stick to this version without a second/third factory before 13:30.
What I find often works is to throw bio/hellbat at zerg and then once you have an advantage (you kill a base but zerg still has an army, you kill all the creep, you are trading very cost-efficiently), consolidate it with a fourth and an extra factory or two to transition into a composition with more long-term sustainability. This is especially good if you are prone to overextending with an advantage and losing the game.
In this situation when zerg cannot keep up with my production, I'd throw down 4 more rax and keep marines streaming to his death.
Hey. thanks for the writeup. Would really like to look at your replays, but can't really make out the site you have them on. Any way you coult put them up on ggtracker?
On May 14 2015 21:56 Tzam wrote: Hey. thanks for the writeup. Would really like to look at your replays, but can't really make out the site you have them on. Any way you coult put them up on ggtracker?
search Redbull Cup for DRG vs Bomber on spawning tool
EPT![[image loading]](http://bbs.niuyou5.com/data/attachment/forum/201409/23/120536ynlknzom57n4zqm1.jpg)
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