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United States248 Posts
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote:
Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ?
Not really. It would be interesting, but much less helpful, especially for ZvZ it comes down to two overlord checks and then "WHAT IS HE DOING WITH HIS LARVA THOUGH?????"
ZvT in a mini-guide is:
- Scout with 1st OL - is he Marine or Reaper first? (affects further overlord placement, to make defensive lings or not) Does he take natural or tech on one base? (scout rax with first overlord ASAP, see if he places natural by 3:30-4 minutes)
- Scout with 2nd OL - 3CC or tech on 2base? What kind of tech on 2 base? Is there more than 1 rax already? (timing is 5:30-6:30)
- Scout with 3rd OL - is he bio or meching? How many factories does he have? If he started banshees is he continuing with a tech lab on the starport? (8:30)
- Always have lings on watch towers and in front of his base so you know when he moves out
You can of course break down ZvP in such a basic way as well, but this sort of guide is way more important for PvZ when their timings require vastly different responses. ZvT is just "have baneling/queen!", and ZvZ is either "Ling bling queen!" or "Roaches!!"
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On September 23 2014 05:08 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 20:36 Musicus wrote:
I'd like a few tips on situations where I scout that the Protoss is being way too greedy and should/could attack to punish him! Either cancel a third or even break a natural wall when it's weak. When I scout a third nexus at 6 minutes can I assume he can't have enough ground units to defend it vs speedlings? Sometimes I watch my replays and realise that my opponent build one zealot and nothing else before building air units to harass while taking a third at the same time and I could've broken his natural most likely. Sometimes I want to take the aggression to them, but not blindly of course. It's honestly quite hard for Zerg to "reactively" break Protosses since you really do need the correct infrastructure to deal with certain things. However, what you CAN do is set up potential timings based on what time your zergling speed finishes to shut down a greedier Protoss if you need to. For instance, Life uses a plethora of ling timings that are aligned with zergling speed finishing; if the Protoss is playing more conservatively, he can just make drones instead. You are never going to break a natural expansion unless your opponent is playing badly or there was some kind of early game shenanigans going on like a proxy hatch (Or Daedalus). In terms of cancelling the third, it's all about how you set up ling speed. For instance, against a FFE, if you go gasless triple hatch into double gas @6:00 -> lair -> zergling speed, your speed won't be finishing up until around 9:00, which means you cannot cancel a 7:00 3rd base. However, if you go triple hatch before pool into gas, zergling speed will finish right around 7:00, giving you ample opportunity to punish an opponent going for an ultra fast third. If you're looking for more opportunities to deal with a greedier Protoss, try pushing your gas timings up a little bit to give you THE OPTION to flood lings. Obviously, you lose a bit of economy with this type of style, but it might lead you to some interesting and useful ideas. Mid game timings are a little more complicated but usually revolve around gas usage as well. In short: just try to give yourself as many options for aggression as possible by unlocking tech or economy at a certain time and then choosing between drones and units based on what you've scouted.
Thanks a lot, really appreciate it  .
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On September 23 2014 05:16 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote:
Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ? The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups . At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently).
That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 24 2014 12:31 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 05:16 SC2John wrote:On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote:
Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ? The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups . At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently). That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was.
Holy fuck, you're alive.
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A very nicely written guide with a lot of good information. Thanks TL Strategy I'll be putting this to good use.
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United States248 Posts
On September 24 2014 12:31 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 05:16 SC2John wrote:On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote:
Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ? The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups . At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently). That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was.
Get the fuck back to TL strat we miss you.
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On September 23 2014 05:24 Jowj wrote:- Scout with 1st OL - is he Marine or Reaper first? (affects further overlord placement, to make defensive lings or not) Does he take natural or tech on one base? (scout rax with first overlord ASAP, see if he places natural by 3:30-4 minutes)
Quick question about this, how do you do this safely without losing the Overlord when they build a Marine first? I'm always a little cautious with my first Overlord in ZvT, since I'm afraid of losing it. I'm in Gold league for reference, where the Reaper openings are less common.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 26 2014 03:21 Asgorath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 05:24 Jowj wrote:- Scout with 1st OL - is he Marine or Reaper first? (affects further overlord placement, to make defensive lings or not) Does he take natural or tech on one base? (scout rax with first overlord ASAP, see if he places natural by 3:30-4 minutes)
Quick question about this, how do you do this safely without losing the Overlord when they build a Marine first? I'm always a little cautious with my first Overlord in ZvT, since I'm afraid of losing it. I'm in Gold league for reference, where the Reaper openings are less common.
On most maps, there is a safe zone where the overlord can get to if a marine comes out first. For instance, on Overgrowth, you can float it to the natural ramp, and if a marine comes out, just float your overlord to the cliff next to the natural. He might take a little bit of damage, but the overlord SHOULD make it there alive.
Another small thing might be for you to get used to checking things very peripherally with your overlord. In other words, your overlord doesn't need to be right on top of the rax to figure out of it's a reaper or marine first. You can just as easily spot the natural ramp, and if you don't see a reaper after a certain timing (2:30-2:45 is about the time the reaper pops out), then you can just assume it was a marine opening (or maybe something with a fast factory, but that's REALLY uncommon).
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On September 26 2014 03:09 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2014 12:31 blade55555 wrote:On September 23 2014 05:16 SC2John wrote:On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote:
Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ? The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups . At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently). That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was. Get the fuck back to TL strat we miss you.
I am in there I just kinda forget about the chat xD.
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Jesus, everyone i've learned zerg strategy from in this thread at once. So starstruck!
But to the point, thanks for the guide. Very well laid out, highly detailed.
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Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.)
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United States4883 Posts
On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.)
First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well).
Second big thing is moving out with a zealot and a probe at 4:30. Assuming you're scouting your side of the map well, you shouldn't have any hidden probes or pylons very close to your base, and often times the Sangate player will not bother to hide a probe since the pressure hits so early.
Another useful technique is doing a ling poke in conjunction with your overlord scout. I've actually seen players like Jaedong do a very specific ling poke with ~6 lings after the zealot moves out that almost always force at least one unit to warp in back at home (since there is only a sentry to defend the wall). You can definitely do this scout before 6:00 (more like 5:30) if you see that zealot move out to confirm if it's a Sangate/4-gate or a more normal build.
But in general, if you see a Protoss player moving out like he's obviously going to do warp gate pressure, you should think about throwing down a second gas and a roach warren because you're going to need it, most likely.
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On September 28 2014 02:38 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.) First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well).
I am very curious about this overlord checking gases in the main. I am well aware of the Protoss gas timings, and know that if they stay on one gas past 5:00 or so, that I need to expect aggression, but I don't have a way to check on the main gas timings until I sac my first OV at 6:00. What I do is I send my initial OV to the Protoss natural to check for his expansion timing, and later the timing of the gases at the natural. My 9 OV I send over my own natural to spot for cannon rushes before sending him to a safe spot outside the Protoss main to sac at 6:00. Before this point, I have no idea whether the Protoss has 1 or 2 gases in his main base.
Should I send my 9 OV into the main earlier than 6:00 to check for gas count in the main base? I have always been told to sac an ov at 6:00 vs gateway expand, and as such, it's usually not until 6:15 or so that I can confirm 1 gas vs 2 gas.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 28 2014 04:30 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 02:38 SC2John wrote:On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.) First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well). I am very curious about this overlord checking gases in the main. I am well aware of the Protoss gas timings, and know that if they stay on one gas past 5:00 or so, that I need to expect aggression, but I don't have a way to check on the main gas timings until I sac my first OV at 6:00. What I do is I send my initial OV to the Protoss natural to check for his expansion timing, and later the timing of the gases at the natural. My 9 OV I send over my own natural to spot for cannon rushes before sending him to a safe spot outside the Protoss main to sac at 6:00. Before this point, I have no idea whether the Protoss has 1 or 2 gases in his main base. Should I send my 9 OV into the main earlier than 6:00 to check for gas count in the main base? I have always been told to sac an ov at 6:00 vs gateway expand, and as such, it's usually not until 6:15 or so that I can confirm 1 gas vs 2 gas.
Unless you're going hatch first, spotting the hatch isn't necessary. Even then, I don't think it's necessary to spot for cannon rushes on a lot of 2-player maps because you can spot the probe coming with your first overlord and then just pull a drone around 2:30ish to check for a building pylon or whatever. Then again, on 2-player maps, you could just drone scout....
In any case, I tend to send my first two overlords out immediately because once the pool is done, you're pretty much safe from cannons. In any case, you should probably be sending your first overlord to check the natural and then spot the gases in the main and rally your second overlord to the natural (after spotting the hatch, if it pleases you). That way you can get a good idea of the overall gas counts.
And like I said, if he moves out with a zealot/MSC earlier than 4:30, you're certainly welcome to scout a bit earlier just to make sure.
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On September 28 2014 04:30 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 02:38 SC2John wrote:On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.) First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well). I am very curious about this overlord checking gases in the main. I am well aware of the Protoss gas timings, and know that if they stay on one gas past 5:00 or so, that I need to expect aggression, but I don't have a way to check on the main gas timings until I sac my first OV at 6:00. What I do is I send my initial OV to the Protoss natural to check for his expansion timing, and later the timing of the gases at the natural. My 9 OV I send over my own natural to spot for cannon rushes before sending him to a safe spot outside the Protoss main to sac at 6:00. Before this point, I have no idea whether the Protoss has 1 or 2 gases in his main base. Should I send my 9 OV into the main earlier than 6:00 to check for gas count in the main base? I have always been told to sac an ov at 6:00 vs gateway expand, and as such, it's usually not until 6:15 or so that I can confirm 1 gas vs 2 gas.
Lowko teaches his students to scout the Protoss main with two lings from a 15 pool. Only if these lings see two gases, he lets them take a third, else they are told to delay it. That might not be the mainstream for (Korean) pro players, but it's still a perfectly fine way to open in the matchup.
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Thanks for the guide, i will try to use it!
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A few random scouting questions:
1) If I am about to sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6-7 min and I notice a stalker patrolling the ledge, should I abandon the sac and just put down a couple safety spores, or should I go ahead and send him in and hope he sees something relevant before he gets shot down? If it's a sentry, I can usually manage to get vision of most of the protoss main before my OV is killed, but a stalker usually kills it before I can even spot the gas geysers, let alone any tech buildings or gates. I tend to notice that protoss usually make stalkers instead of sentries to deny overlord scouts when there is something they really want to hide...
2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference.
3) When facing a protoss using a 1gate FE build, I send in an overlord @ 6:00, and against FFE I send one in @ 7:00. If he opens with the super greedy nexus > gateway build, should I just split the difference and send one in at 6:30, or is that too early?
Thanks, and great guide, by the way! I don't think I mentioned that last time.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 23 2014 00:04 Frankie Teardrop wrote:A few random scouting questions: 1) If I am about to sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6-7 min and I notice a stalker patrolling the ledge, should I abandon the sac and just put down a couple safety spores, or should I go ahead and send him in and hope he sees something relevant before he gets shot down? If it's a sentry, I can usually manage to get vision of most of the protoss main before my OV is killed, but a stalker usually kills it before I can even spot the gas geysers, let alone any tech buildings or gates. I tend to notice that protoss usually make stalkers instead of sentries to deny overlord scouts when there is something they really want to hide... 2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference. 3) When facing a protoss using a 1gate FE build, I send in an overlord @ 6:00, and against FFE I send one in @ 7:00. If he opens with the super greedy nexus > gateway build, should I just split the difference and send one in at 6:30, or is that too early? Thanks, and great guide, by the way! I don't think I mentioned that last time.
1) If the stalker is in the main, there's a good chance he's not watching the overlord in the natural (and his tech is probably close to there anyway). I suggest sacking the natural overlord instead and skirting around the main and checking the edges with the other overlord.
2) I assume you're talking about 2 base. Most of the time, it's going to be 2 gases very early, no MSC, no forge upgrades, and one or less sentries. This is one of those things where you just have to do some poking with lings and overlords and notice that there's not a lot of gas being spent.
3) Tbh, I think it's best to treat it pretty much like a FFE anyway. You might scout A LITTLE BIT earlier (I wouldn't object to 6:30), but the fact is that going gateway after expansion doesn't really get the tech up THAT much faster than a FFE.
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On October 23 2014 02:18 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 00:04 Frankie Teardrop wrote:A few random scouting questions: 1) If I am about to sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6-7 min and I notice a stalker patrolling the ledge, should I abandon the sac and just put down a couple safety spores, or should I go ahead and send him in and hope he sees something relevant before he gets shot down? If it's a sentry, I can usually manage to get vision of most of the protoss main before my OV is killed, but a stalker usually kills it before I can even spot the gas geysers, let alone any tech buildings or gates. I tend to notice that protoss usually make stalkers instead of sentries to deny overlord scouts when there is something they really want to hide... 2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference. 3) When facing a protoss using a 1gate FE build, I send in an overlord @ 6:00, and against FFE I send one in @ 7:00. If he opens with the super greedy nexus > gateway build, should I just split the difference and send one in at 6:30, or is that too early? Thanks, and great guide, by the way! I don't think I mentioned that last time. 1) If the stalker is in the main, there's a good chance he's not watching the overlord in the natural (and his tech is probably close to there anyway). I suggest sacking the natural overlord instead and skirting around the main and checking the edges with the other overlord. 2) I assume you're talking about 2 base. Most of the time, it's going to be 2 gases very early, no MSC, no forge upgrades, and one or less sentries. This is one of those things where you just have to do some poking with lings and overlords and notice that there's not a lot of gas being spent. 3) Tbh, I think it's best to treat it pretty much like a FFE anyway. You might scout A LITTLE BIT earlier (I wouldn't object to 6:30), but the fact is that going gateway after expansion doesn't really get the tech up THAT much faster than a FFE.
Thank you as always, John!
On October 23 2014 19:08 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference. If you Drone scout then a balls-to-the-wall Dark Templar or Oracle rush is easily scouted because you'll see the Protoss take both their gases very early on and then immediately saturate those gases upon completion. The Protoss won't be able to prevent you from scouting this so you should see it quite easily. If you don't Drone scout then you probably won't know something is up until you see that the Protoss hasn't expanded at a normal time, but even that should be enough to trigger some Spore Crawlers being placed down. If the Protoss is delaying their expansion beyond a 22 Nexus MSC Expand timing then they're up to something... I don't know if this will help further, but the earliest proxy Dark Templar build that I've been able to hit whilst still placing down an expansion at a normal time (22 Nexus) and getting a MSC is like this: - 9 Pylon
- 13 Gateway (Send Probe To Proxy Location)
- 15 Gas
- 16 Pylon (Proxy)
- 18 Zealot
- 20 Cybernetics Core
- 22 Nexus
- 22 MSC
- 22 Warpgate Research
- 22 Pylon (Natural Wall)
- 23 Gas (2)
- Cut Probe Production Once Main Saturated
- 25 Twilight Council (~4:45)
- 25 2xGateway (Natural Wall)
- 25 Dark Shrine (~5:35)
- Resume Probe Production With Constant Chronoboost
With this type of opening the Dark Templar will warp-in at ~7:15 and the Protoss will be able to afford three of them. This obviously isn't the earliest timing that you can hit with Dark Templar, but it is the earliest timing you can hit whilst maintaining the facade of a normal expansion (give or take a few seconds). I imagine there are similar builds that get a proxy Stargate instead of a proxy Twilight Council and the timing would be very similar. These builds are harder to scout for because they don't have an obvious tell other than the second Pylon being missing, and it's very hard for Zerg to know that the second Pylon is missing if they don't Drone scout.
Thank you too, Sated. It has been fun practicing with you on ladder, by the way. I am Yar on battle.net. 
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EPT
