EPTTL Strategy Presents: Scouting in ZvP - Page 3
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On September 18 2014 20:46 FFW_Rude wrote: At my level i can't make the gateway timing. What would be a "delayed gas timing" ?. If i don't see a second gaz and more than one gate i assume 4gate or something along the line. Immo, 3gate or something like that. So if i understood delayed gaz = - "No expo, more than one gate, no sentry" ? Thanks for your answer Tech builds (as well as less aggressive 3gates) get their second gas shortly after the nexus; the sangate doesn't start extra assimilators until the pressure is completely over. Almost every build has an expansion and (at least) one sentry though, so neither of those is a good tell that the protoss will be playing passively. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On September 19 2014 00:42 RaiZ wrote: I really hate to scout for gas. I mean, if we have to count the gas being spent aswell, that means there's a LOT of shits to do as zerg while following your build order... For example the 4 initials lings scout is really really APM intensive. And it doesn't even guarantee you that you'll find that sneaking probe. what else do you have to spend apm on that early in the game? besides starting to spread creep, injecting larvae, spreading overlords, droning, grabbing your 3rd, and figuring out if you need to respond to any protoss bullshit which is partly what using those lings is for not to be rude but there isn't that much going on in the early game that you can't do a bunch of shift click A-moves and look at the minimap a bit. no sentry = dt so often it isn't even funny. but then he's taken gas 3/4 most of the time | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13425 Posts
On September 19 2014 00:52 Teoita wrote: Tech builds (as well as less aggressive 3gates) get their second gas shortly after the nexus; the sangate doesn't start extra assimilators until the pressure is completely over. Almost every build has an expansion and (at least) one sentry though, so neither of those is a good tell that the protoss will be playing passively. I'll add to this, if its no expansion, just follow what the vs. one base section recommends, and don't get supply blocked. The only reason you should really lose to one base pressure in gold especially is by not having enough stuff, or letting him ff your main ramp with your whole army up there. Basically, I would recommend to ANYONE in gold, regardless of race, try to perfect the first 10 minutes of your game as much as possible. This alone will get you to plat and diamond. Against 1 base play, if you are macroing well not supply blocking, all you need to do decision making wise as Z in ZvP is follow what SC2John recommends here. If you see a natural and only one gas, there is either a sangate, or an immortal mantrain coming. Both of which can be scouted pretty easily as SC2John points out since they wont have much anti air and the main difference between the two at an early scout timing is whether the core is being chronoed or not, or even just the existence of a robo if you manage to see it seals the deal for MANtrain. Though the MANtrain is significantly weaker with the latest changes to timewarp reducing the time it is cast for substantially. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On September 19 2014 03:51 unit wrote: what else do you have to spend apm on that early in the game? besides starting to spread creep, injecting larvae, spreading overlords, droning, grabbing your 3rd, and figuring out if you need to respond to any protoss bullshit which is partly what using those lings is for not to be rude but there isn't that much going on in the early game that you can't do a bunch of shift click A-moves and look at the minimap a bit. Compare that to your probe playing hide and seek while you can do your build order without having to do anything. That's right, that alone is why I blame protoss for. When you see so many 100 apm toss winning in master, you can start wondering if they're really trying hard to hide their fucking probe. Just played a game and even though I've pupt much effort in scouting that probe it still went unarmed and put a pylon right in front on my third. Really, need I say more ? Fuck that game seriously. I'll probably get temp ban but whatever i'm so tired of this shit. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 18 2014 22:17 Big J wrote: lol, that picture "Presumably what your games will look like from now on"... How do I make my opponent retarted enough to go with 4immortals, after roach burrow movement is done and with only 5sentries? :D This guide also brings nothing really new to the table as far as I have read (nor aims at that). It's a compendium for ladder players how to identify and defend certain allins that have been created in WoL or at the beginning of HotS. They surely could do something like that too for TvP. Not sure if they have the manpower for TvZ though.  That picture was actually taken well into the game after the Protoss had failed two attacks and was trying to attempt a last ditch offense. It was meant to be a little bit ridiculous :p. On September 19 2014 00:42 RaiZ wrote: I really hate to scout for gas. I mean, if we have to count the gas being spent aswell, that means there's a LOT of shits to do as zerg while following your build order... For example the 4 initials lings scout is really really APM intensive. And it doesn't even guarantee you that you'll find that sneaking probe. Scouting for gas is as simple as placing an overlord next to the gas geysers and occasionally checking your minimap. It's literally 0 actions to check for gas. As far as scouting with the initial lings, yeah, it can be a little bit daunting. If you don't have the APM do it well, that's fine, just try to make sure you're taking the watchtowers and watching the front of your opponent's base. As far as all the Sangate questions, Teo and Zero have pretty much narrowed it down. It's essentially a very delayed 2nd gas (sometimes Protoss players will make the gas and not mine from it, so you need to watch out for that too) and a zealot/probe moveout at 4:30. If you're really unsure if it's a sangate or a normal 3-gate or 4-gate, you can always build the roach warren as a safety precaution, BUT DO NOT MAKE ROACHES UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. Another easy way to scout out Sangate is to drone scout on 2-player maps and note the time that the gateway goes down; however, this isn't always reliable information and it's not easy to get on 4-player maps, so just get used to scouting it the old fashioned way. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On September 19 2014 00:52 Teoita wrote: Tech builds (as well as less aggressive 3gates) get their second gas shortly after the nexus; the sangate doesn't start extra assimilators until the pressure is completely over. Almost every build has an expansion and (at least) one sentry though, so neither of those is a good tell that the protoss will be playing passively. That's really more clear that way  Thank you.Upped plat last night so i might going to start seeing some of those builds. A lots of build in Gold (and in plat sometimes) are just impossible to read because there's no build behind this. Just people trying things and having fun (which isn't a bad thing). Stuff like Dual gaz into warpgates into... no msc and mass zealots | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
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OrganIZM
United States9 Posts
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tomastaz
United States976 Posts
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
 but zerg did wrong here, inverted is much better. roaches to zealots and lings to stalkers. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 19 2014 17:45 FFW_Rude wrote: That's really more clear that way Thank you.Upped plat last night so i might going to start seeing some of those builds. A lots of build in Gold (and in plat sometimes) are just impossible to read because there's no build behind this. Just people trying things and having fun (which isn't a bad thing). Stuff like Dual gaz into warpgates into... no msc and mass zealots Just keep that Day9 quote in mind. If they do an un-optimized build and you prepare for the optimized version, then you'll just beat it anyway because it's bad. On September 20 2014 06:22 Dingodile wrote: wow the last map where zerg does flank attack <3 but very rare in HotS but zerg did wrong here, inverted is much better. roaches to zealots and lings to stalkers. That's actually from Symbol vs Billowy (in the VoDs section) in which Billowy does a super late soultrain into failblog and then attempts to soultrain again in desperation. That engagement happens when Symbol has all of the map control and burrowed roaches, so that's why the lings are stuck in the back on the zealots while the roaches are on top of everything else. To be honest, Symbol probably could have just won that engagement with a direct enagement without the flank and still won; Billowy was that far behind at that point. BUT THE POINT IS: hopefully, you'll be so good at scouting that you'll just completely crush the Protoss army like that . | ||
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Pandahunterz
Netherlands213 Posts
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Rikudou
Germany151 Posts
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Jowj
United States248 Posts
On September 20 2014 17:55 Pandahunterz wrote: any tips on a high sentry based 2 base "all-in" from protoss (on map with no overlord deadspace that is). always get surprised when they get their army somewhere near my 3th and forcefield my army on the wrong side of the ramp (2nd-3th base). feels so saddening to see your army trying to walk up against those invisible walls watching your 3th base/nat being destroyed, just to see their army being recalled when you can finally get in (which is after a few minutes). how to correctly scout this aggresion and what is the proper response to it? It sounds like mostly what you need it is spotting overlords or lings. Always always always have lings outside his base to see his move out times, have an overlord near his 3rd to check for that, and take watch towers. If you do those things you'll know when something is up, and you'll know when he's out on the map. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 22 2014 20:36 Musicus wrote: I'd like a few tips on situations where I scout that the Protoss is being way too greedy and should/could attack to punish him! Either cancel a third or even break a natural wall when it's weak. When I scout a third nexus at 6 minutes can I assume he can't have enough ground units to defend it vs speedlings? Sometimes I watch my replays and realise that my opponent build one zealot and nothing else before building air units to harass while taking a third at the same time and I could've broken his natural most likely. Sometimes I want to take the aggression to them, but not blindly of course. It's honestly quite hard for Zerg to "reactively" break Protosses since you really do need the correct infrastructure to deal with certain things. However, what you CAN do is set up potential timings based on what time your zergling speed finishes to shut down a greedier Protoss if you need to. For instance, Life uses a plethora of ling timings that are aligned with zergling speed finishing; if the Protoss is playing more conservatively, he can just make drones instead. You are never going to break a natural expansion unless your opponent is playing badly or there was some kind of early game shenanigans going on like a proxy hatch (Or Daedalus). In terms of cancelling the third, it's all about how you set up ling speed. For instance, against a FFE, if you go gasless triple hatch into double gas @6:00 -> lair -> zergling speed, your speed won't be finishing up until around 9:00, which means you cannot cancel a 7:00 3rd base. However, if you go triple hatch before pool into gas, zergling speed will finish right around 7:00, giving you ample opportunity to punish an opponent going for an ultra fast third. If you're looking for more opportunities to deal with a greedier Protoss, try pushing your gas timings up a little bit to give you THE OPTION to flood lings. Obviously, you lose a bit of economy with this type of style, but it might lead you to some interesting and useful ideas. Mid game timings are a little more complicated but usually revolve around gas usage as well. In short: just try to give yourself as many options for aggression as possible by unlocking tech or economy at a certain time and then choosing between drones and units based on what you've scouted. | ||
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Prevail
United States7 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote: Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ? The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups .At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently). | ||
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