EPTTo that apm question: a minimum am is hard stat to just pull out and declare. I would say you need the ability to macro and micro one force and three bases. Polt is not a high apm play especially by the Korean terran standard. If I had to guess I would say 140 would be more than enough to do the entire game plan assuming it's spent right. Maybe even 110.
4M TvZ Part 2: The American Way - Page 4
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
To that apm question: a minimum am is hard stat to just pull out and declare. I would say you need the ability to macro and micro one force and three bases. Polt is not a high apm play especially by the Korean terran standard. If I had to guess I would say 140 would be more than enough to do the entire game plan assuming it's spent right. Maybe even 110. | ||
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ShnAndrei
Romania164 Posts
Jk,jk...  It took me ~2 hours to read through this guide (not a native English speaker though). But I can imagine how much it took you to write it!It is extremely detailed. So detailed, that I'd almost compare it to the work of a literary critic on a piece of literature. What do I mean by this is that at some points I am not even sure if Polt really had in mind the intentions you credit him with, or if you have found such smart intentions for that action which not even Polt thought about. I bet Polt read this and thought "wow, I didn't know I was that smart!"  With that said, I've learned a few interesting strategy points by reading this guide, which makes 4M easier for me to wrap my hands around. So ty for that and for your hard work. You needn't be that thorough on your next guides though. We are excited even for smaller guides. | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
Great job ! | ||
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samwise1993
15 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
From Liquidpedia: Choi "Polt" Seong Hun is a Terran player from South Korea, who is currently playing for CMStorm. Name: 최성훈 Romanized Name: Choi Seong Hun Birth: July 2, 1988 (age 25) Country: South Korea Race: Terran And from this interview from Polt himself: Polt: For Korean fans, there is no idea like a Korean player is representing Korea because there are so many Korean players in the winners bracket. On the other hand, American fans want a player who is representing their country, so I’ll be happy if USA fans think I can do that. The fact I’m living in Texas right now affected my interaction so much. I don’t think I am a representative of the USA but I’ll be glad if USA fans cheer for me and think like that. He doesn't represent America, or the American way, and even admits that he doesn't represent America (and don't give me crap that America ≠ US, there is a big American flag behind the picture)! He represents Korea and will be serving his mandatory military service there. If there was an American champion, who actually lived and was a citizen of some country in America (and didn't just come here for school), I'd still watch WCS... but that throne is currently filled by an impostor from another country. | ||
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FatCat_13
Russian Federation117 Posts
i think you misinterpreted his words. If he said he's US representative people would think he's rather cocky and arrogant. But have you ever noticed him behaving that way? I believe people in USA like him for he lives in America, he speaks English and he's wide open to American culture which is way way different from Korean one. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On October 23 2013 00:50 BronzeKnee wrote: It literally makes me sick to my stomach to see the American Way and then Polt's name listed. Is this some kind of defense of the fact regions aren't locked in WCS? Polt represents the Korean Way. From Liquidpedia: Choi "Polt" Seong Hun is a Terran player from South Korea, who is currently playing for CMStorm. Name: 최성훈 Romanized Name: Choi Seong Hun Birth: July 2, 1988 (age 25) Country: South Korea Race: Terran And from this interview from Polt himself: Polt: For Korean fans, there is no idea like a Korean player is representing Korea because there are so many Korean players in the winners bracket. On the other hand, American fans want a player who is representing their country, so I’ll be happy if USA fans think I can do that. The fact I’m living in Texas right now affected my interaction so much. I don’t think I am a representative of the USA but I’ll be glad if USA fans cheer for me and think like that. He doesn't represent America, or the American way, and even admits that he doesn't represent America (and don't give me crap that America ≠ US, there is a big American flag behind the picture)! He represents Korea and will be serving his mandatory military service there. If there was an American champion, who actually lived and was a citizen of some country in America (and didn't just come here for school), I'd still watch WCS... but that throne is currently filled by an impostor from another country. dude, chill out. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On October 23 2013 01:12 FatCat_13 wrote: BronzeKnee, i think you misinterpreted his words. If he said he's US representative people would think he's rather cocky and arrogant. But have you ever noticed him behaving that way? I believe people in USA like him for he lives in America, he speaks English and he's wide open to American culture which is way way different from Korean one. It isn't Polt I have an issue with, it is this articles portrayal of him. Polt is the champion of WCS America. But he isn't an American champion. Key difference. He doesn't represent America, he represents WCS America, which is a meaningless entity because regions aren't locked. Portraying him as representative of the American way is wrong. He is at best, an impostor. There are certain things I just don't think you should mock. The American way is one of them. It wouldn't be in good taste if an article about a Japanese player beating a Korean had a flag of the rising sun in the background, and this isn't in good taste either. But I'm just sitting in a corner crying, missing Idra really... | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On October 22 2013 22:39 vaderseven wrote: Polt is one of the most successful terrans of all time and has top 4 performance in every matchup. On top of that his performance in hots places him as being in top form now even though he started winning championships in like 2011. To that apm question: a minimum am is hard stat to just pull out and declare. I would say you need the ability to macro and micro one force and three bases. Polt is not a high apm play especially by the Korean terran standard. If I had to guess I would say 140 would be more than enough to do the entire game plan assuming it's spent right. Maybe even 110. Part of the problem when assessing APM is considering average when the real issue is max. For a long time I hovered around 70-75apm average, but that number doubled or tripled during fights, and was dragged down by the early game, where I chose not to spam. People called me out for it, wondering how I could beat them when my average APM was half theirs...its simple: when I actually needed to be up at around 200, I was and when I didnt need to be there, I wasn't. Average alone isn't enough. You can do a style like this with prolly the 100 or so average that vader mentioned, if its spent right, but your potential max apm needs to be way higher. There are plenty of spots where you can be low APM, but there are others where it is super critical that you be able to hit the higher gears or you will straight die. Great guide btw, really good read. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On October 22 2013 18:19 boxerfred wrote: offtopic: I just read "I'm just a protoss.." with queen's bohemian rhapsody melody in my mind.. :D I'm just a protoss, nobody loves me... | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
That being said, its grown a bit bigger than having a winner from your region/country to cheer for. It's kind of represents how we accepted what WCS quickly turned into. In cases like Polt, Jaedong, and Forgg, it makes them even easier to rally behind, because they either speak the language or live in a foreign country. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
On October 22 2013 22:39 vaderseven wrote: Polt is one of the most successful terrans of all time and has top 4 performance in every matchup. On top of that his performance in hots places him as being in top form now even though he started winning championships in like 2011. To that apm question: a minimum am is hard stat to just pull out and declare. I would say you need the ability to macro and micro one force and three bases. Polt is not a high apm play especially by the Korean terran standard. If I had to guess I would say 140 would be more than enough to do the entire game plan assuming it's spent right. Maybe even 110. From the polt replays I checked, he still had 150/180 sc2gears EAPM depending on games and matchups, which is a bit lower than say innovation or other top koreans but still pretty high. So he's still in the average. It's enough to do everything you need to, even if as pointed in the OP his mechanics are sub par compared to others, and he has to make up for that by being a genius in other aspects. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
Excellent analysis! | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
In all seriousness, I never once talk about him be American and not korean and title was obvious satire or irony. Keep the discussion on topic about the style which was used by a player to win WCS AM two times. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:43 Nimix wrote: From the polt replays I checked, he still had 150/180 sc2gears EAPM depending on games and matchups, which is a bit lower than say innovation or other top koreans but still pretty high. So he's still in the average. It's enough to do everything you need to, even if as pointed in the OP his mechanics are sub par compared to others, and he has to make up for that by being a genius in other aspects. Correct. I still think an apm of the values I stated would be enough to attempt executing this style. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On October 22 2013 23:55 ShnAndrei wrote: Cool, now make another one for Polt vs Byul. xD Jk,jk... It took me ~2 hours to read through this guide (not a native English speaker though). But I can imagine how much it took you to write it!It is extremely detailed. So detailed, that I'd almost compare it to the work of a literary critic on a piece of literature. What do I mean by this is that at some points I am not even sure if Polt really had in mind the intentions you credit him with, or if you have found such smart intentions for that action which not even Polt thought about. I bet Polt read this and thought "wow, I didn't know I was that smart!" With that said, I've learned a few interesting strategy points by reading this guide, which makes 4M easier for me to wrap my hands around. So ty for that and for your hard work. You needn't be that thorough on your next guides though. We are excited even for smaller guides. I wondered the same for awhile but if you watch a large number of the games where he uses this style you begin to see the things he sees and how he reacts and the timings he focuses on for both macro and positioning. I feel confident that the vast majority of what I went over is correct. | ||
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skyflyfish
Canada499 Posts
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
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TaishiCi
Korea (South)211 Posts
I feel like extreme mechanical Zergs like DRG would do well against this style. It is doubtful that Polt's style would have had the same success at GSL. Like Taeja I think Polt is geared too much on scatter-shot practice that makes them very peaky. I hope that zergs start mixing it up more with some aggression again. Ok, we get it you can keep up with the terrans mechanically in TvZ now. Doesn't mean you can't mix in different aggression to throw the opponents off. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
Conversely, if Terran has a bad engagement, Zerg probably rallies and pushes Terran back far off creep, giving him more map control and room to pressure the possible terran 4th. My opinion is this is not really different from other styles except being safe. Terran starts a parade and it comes down to better engagements. And for all the talk about Polt's subpar micro and macro... When it mattered, he had better engagements than JD, which built enough momentum for him to win. I think this is proven by the army/drone counts you give: At the 16:05 game time mark we can see that Polt has 44 SCVs and that Jaedong has 80 drones. Polt has a total of 125 food and Jaedong has a total of 172 food. In total, the army sizes of the two players is only 11 in favor of Jaedong. At the 17:16 mark, Jaedong has 85 workers and 146 food compared to Polt's 44 workers and 108 food. That is a difference of 3 army supply favoring Polt. A few minutes later... The army size differential is now in favor of Polt. But we know JD is spending his money, therefore the only conclusion is that terran is trading efficiently enough with the zerg army to overcome a deficit of 36 workers ( probably less because of mules). | ||
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