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I am going to keep this simple; I really need a solid TvT build. All I face on the ladder are 1/1/1 all ins off one base. I have been doing a lot of widow mine drops into cloaked banshee into expand. My games turn into these really strange semi base trade scenarios, where I rape there mineral line while they bust down my front and I rely on cloak banshee micro and other weird shit to win. I got hard countered just now by a guy who went 1/1/1 all in and also build a turret in his main. Pretty silly games.
For reference, I am diamond league.
I would like it if someone could post some of replays, preferable of a pro level player using some kind of economy focused opener that is relatively safe. I know there is no magic build for tvt right now, but something that works against 90% of the common builds would be just fine by me.
To comply with the rules of the strategy section, here are my most recent tvt games:
http://www.mediafire.com/?023uhm4d81bquqx
http://www.mediafire.com/?kh1l05cc8npgspk
http://www.mediafire.com/?zxmcsp11h6ptkph
I made a lot of mistakes and you can feel free to point these out. I am really having a crisis of strategy however so i would appreciate comments about openers.
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ForGG opening FTW lol. I can't watch the games but ForGG is meant to be the safest of all builds right now in TvT.
User was warned for this post
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On August 06 2013 05:18 Pirfiktshon wrote:
ForGG opening FTW lol. I can't watch the games but ForGG is meant to be the safest of all builds right now in TvT.
versus one base tank pushes you should need to pull some scvs and engage him outside your base before he can siege, focus his marines with your hellions.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412904
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Game 1: You got outplayed real hard. You wasted a lot of scans by using them when you didn't have anything in position to actually attack your opponent's banshee. Then you send a banshee out, fly over a bunch of tanks/marauders, with zero anti-air, but keep going for the enemy base. With nothing to attack it, the one banshee could have cleaned up those tanks incredibly fast.
Game 2 was a TvP vs the AI for some reason??
Game 3: Not really sure what you could have done besides blindly put down a bunker. That's a pretty nasty build. He takes a late gas so it doesn't look like reaper play when you scout. The only big mistake was not burrowing your first widow mine ASAP, which let the reapers snipe it down.
Widow mine drops aren't going to do much against really aggressive one-base play. You'll kill all their workers, but they'll already have a big army, and that's a lot of resources you didn't spend on defenses. Using mines defensively works better IMO. With only one orbital they won't have enough scans to deal with them.
For a safe economic opener, 12rax/15gas is your best bet. Make two marines, then add a reactor on your rax unless you suspect reapers, in which case you should just keep pumping out marines one at a time. Then a CC and a factory, and you can put down a bunker and make the CC on the high ground if you don't feel safe. Take a second gas if you want to do drops or banshee play after that, it'll only be delayed by a minute or two.
Here's Taeja doing a expand into banshee build: http://drop.sc/353146
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It seems like you're not doing the appropriate adaptations to their play. Before, TvT was my worse match-up and I had like 40% win, I ended up doing banshee into marine-tank like maru did and got a high winrate. Then I learnt ForGG build and now it's my best and prefered match-up, no joke. Simple examples :
- If you go ForGG build and encounter a 1 - 1 - 1 marine tank push, make a banshee, roast his marines with your hellions, get a tank out and auto-repair it. Easy win.
- If your opponent is playing passively, you can be agressive with a marine drop + hellion run-by and do damages (or marine+hellion elevator if he built a bunker).
- It can defend banshee really easily as you can get a viking + raven when you scout he's going banshee.
- It counter hellbat drops (now they're not used at all but before they were nerfed) because you can kite hellbats with your hellions.
I won't add more but if you're not good at TvT you should just try this build. It's the safest and most powerfull one imo because you can counter everything and you can also put pressure. Also, BFH are incredibly fun to play 
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misslicked, delete it, thank you.
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Saw a recent day9 daily with Maru and Innovation playing against each other. Maru was playing a hyper-aggressive build that involved a 1-1-1 opener with 6:30 banshee harass. Followed up by building one mine to sit outside their front door. Followed up buy a 9 min marine tank push with an expansion behind it.
So if you hate long drawn out bio-mech wars, try this build. I takes decent multi-tasking but if you nail it down right it has a high win ratio apparently. To expand further on this build:
12 gas
13 rax - Constantly build marines
factory as soon as possible (before orbital)
18 OC
19 Gas
Starport and one widow mine from factory
tech lab on factory
Switch starport > research cloak
Reactor on barracks
Now you just pump out tanks and marines while doing banshee harass, and you use the one widow mine to watch their front door with a light contain. Then you come in around 9 mins with something like 3 tanks and 10 marines with streaming reinforcements. Expand behind your push. Plan a transition if your push fails and continue to harass with banshees.
Check out the daily and see for yourself; it's Maru vs Innovation TvT.
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For me, the safest and most standard build is 12 racks 15 gas to fact + cc on your base.
Make 4 marines to reactor... to extra gas +depot + starport..... then you can pump 2x hellions or 2x marines, depending on what you feel if you want to defend with hellion or marine...
AFter starport is done you switch with techlab, then you can add 1 banshee to 1 raven to 1 more banshee..... this is good if you decided to pump marines..... There are dozens of different combinations that makes you safe vs reaper, proxy marauder, hellion marine drop, cloaked banshee, etc......
Just watch out for tank pushes... if you feel he's coming for it, you need to have at least 1 tank and 1 bunker, and start pumping vikings.... if he fast expand you can also get back with your banshee and get extra 3rd cc to compensate, or do a tank push yourself.
cheers,
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I think u can go just 111 but with an early expo on high ground and just defend, as long as u have fast tank and a bunker u are safe to anything. And just scout him if he goes banshe switch starport with factory techlab and build a raven, if not build another tank fast. etc :D
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the build that hard counters 1-1-1 is cc first into 1-1-1 :D im serious
i've been using this 1 build with variations in tvt
after scout with supply-depot scv,
-> if you see early gas without early factory, with reapers,
15 cc
16 rax x2
proceed normally to bio or mech
-> but if you scout early gas without reapers and early factory,
15 cc
double gas
rax (when finished -> reaper)
double orbitals
then reactor on rax and factory, then switch addons when done.
make couple hellions to scout, then continue to 1-1-1 composition required, ie, switch reactor back on rax for marines, techlab on factory and starport.
because you went cc first, you have enough econ to support 1-1-1 and an early-ish 3rd base.
also, there is one more style to this build XDD
-> you scout no gas AND they scout your cc first
15 cc
2 rax + orbital
4 more rax
mindgames! can punish gasless expos and also 1base marine-scv allins pretty hard.
hope this helps...
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On August 06 2013 04:54 mothergoose729 wrote:I am going to keep this simple; I really need a solid TvT build. All I face on the ladder are 1/1/1 all ins off one base. I have been doing a lot of widow mine drops into cloaked banshee into expand. My games turn into these really strange semi base trade scenarios, where I rape there mineral line while they bust down my front and I rely on cloak banshee micro and other weird shit to win. I got hard countered just now by a guy who went 1/1/1 all in and also build a turret in his main. Pretty silly games. For reference, I am diamond league. I would like it if someone could post some of replays, preferable of a pro level player using some kind of economy focused opener that is relatively safe. I know there is no magic build for tvt right now, but something that works against 90% of the common builds would be just fine by me. To comply with the rules of the strategy section, here are my most recent tvt games: http://www.mediafire.com/?023uhm4d81bquqxhttp://www.mediafire.com/?kh1l05cc8npgspkhttp://www.mediafire.com/?zxmcsp11h6ptkphI made a lot of mistakes and you can feel free to point these out. I am really having a crisis of strategy however so i would appreciate comments about openers.
TvT is one of my favorite match ups, and I feel the best way to approach the match up is with consistency. Even if you lose, hopefully you lost just because they are better than you are, but if you keep doing the same thing over and over you will get a good feel for the match up. With that in mind I feel the best way to open in Diamond/Masters TvT (where we lack mechanics) is with CC first economic opening. I know you asked for PRO level replays but I don't have any good examples. What I do have are two Examples of CC first holding off various early game pressure/all in's. These are my own replays streaming on twitch.
Not that it matters. I'm a Masters NA player, and am Diamond EU player (I was masters when HotS was released but I don't play there often) These particular replays are taken from the EU server a few days ago so they are vs Diamond opponents, which you said you're diamond so I think it applies. Hope they help you.
Holding off a two rax reaper with CC first (High Ground)
http://www.twitch.tv/perfect0/b/442164352?t=56m19s
Holding off a 1/1/1 - 3 seige tank, reactor marines, 2 viking, AND SCV Pull. With CC first. Using energy on second CC to scan for Intel
http://www.twitch.tv/perfect0/b/442164352?t=88m48s
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On August 14 2013 00:41 Painiyff wrote:
the build that hard counters 1-1-1 is cc first into 1-1-1 :D im serious
i've been using this 1 build with variations in tvt
after scout with supply-depot scv,
-> if you see early gas without early factory, with reapers,
15 cc
16 rax x2
proceed normally to bio or mech
-> but if you scout early gas without reapers and early factory,
15 cc
double gas
rax (when finished -> reaper)
double orbitals
then reactor on rax and factory, then switch addons when done.
make couple hellions to scout, then continue to 1-1-1 composition required, ie, switch reactor back on rax for marines, techlab on factory and starport.
because you went cc first, you have enough econ to support 1-1-1 and an early-ish 3rd base.
also, there is one more style to this build XDD
-> you scout no gas AND they scout your cc first
15 cc
2 rax + orbital
4 more rax
mindgames! can punish gasless expos and also 1base marine-scv allins pretty hard.
hope this helps...
Don't go cc first in TvT, it's just not worth the risk. There's so many builds it dies to, for example 2 rax rush, proxy marauder, 2 rax reaper, proxy tank, early marine hellion drop. The only builds that cc first really counters are 1 rax fe into banshees and wm drops.
The safest build currently is the 1 rax 15 gas fe, straight into hellion Viking, with turrets at 6.30 ish depending on your scout. There is a brief vulnerability when you build the first addon, so to be super safe go without addons, until you have 4 hellions, then techlab into tanks.
The key to stopping a 111 all in is to have map control by using hellions, and pull around 10 SCVs and all your army. Hellions are the most important unit early on, since you can out micro and chase down a large amount of marines if microed properly.
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Pull SCV's more often. That's how you win in TvT :D
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My biggest issue with TvT is doom drops even into turret rings. If my turrets get in the last shot needed to kill the medivacs, I win. If he manages to unload, he wins. Well actually it's not a guaranteed win, if I kill his medivacs and units it kind of just pays for the cost of all the turrets.
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Master Terran here
I think that your build is bad in 2 ways. You have too much gas early on and you don't build a hellion. If you are gonna go for cloaked banshee, take your 2nd gas when your factory starts, not before. I would also suggest that you build 1 hellion first and then a widow mine. The hellion will help you stay alive against stupid mass reaper builds and also provide map vision and scouting for you.
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EPT
