EPTA lot of people agree with this after trying it for a while and getting comfortable starting CC first.
[G] Going CC-first Bio in TvP - Page 2
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
A lot of people agree with this after trying it for a while and getting comfortable starting CC first. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On May 06 2013 07:38 -HuShang- wrote: Time to bring out the 10gate double zealot, stalker, msc it seems So you're that guy. May you be plagued with BW Dragoon AI, you bastard.  Yeah, that would be pretty good against CC-first. Unfortunately, it's bad against almost everything else. There's a reason I didn't worry too much about proxy 2-gate and 10-gate builds when trying this; it makes up like 1% of all games, so there's no point preparing specifically for it. | ||
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
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BaaL`
297 Posts
If you scouted 1-base blink I think you should evacuate your natural, put the CC in your main and continue SCV production off 2 orbitals, and get a bunker in a good spot against blinks in your main. Overall I don't think it is a problem to hold this. Just don't be greedy about the low ground, and pull workers sooner rather than later. | ||
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Taefox
1533 Posts
edit: You would want to add another guide about scouting in TvP when I feel like scouting is the most important thing at CC first build, here is the link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411085 | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1149 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On May 06 2013 09:09 Chylith wrote: Good guide, it'd be cool if you added a bit on how to react to protoss pulling 1/3 of their probes with 1-2 chronoed zealots though. I know it's not something most people will see often, but it's still a good response to cc first that some protoss use. =p Check out the MKP vs HuK game from Cloud Kingdom. It's under the Pro VoDs section. Also covered in section 4 under 'Early Harass' (talking about multiple Probe harass, again referencing the MKP/HuK game). | ||
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
The whole point is that it just makes your midgame advantage much stronger. This lets you keep the protoss on 2 bases for a lot longer than the 1 rax expand variant. You need to focus your play in hitting this window. I think the problem most terran players have pulling this off is that you have to think and be reactionary, whereas the 1-rax expand build had built-in failsafes to shut down all ins. ( ie, the engi bay starting as you start factory after stim finished in time for the 7:00 DT...) - Any early chrono aggression can be beaten by smart scouting and a reactionary bunker. You shouldn't lose to chono'd zealot stalker. Cut an orbital upgrade for 10 seconds to make sure you get a bunker up safely, if the map is small. - If you see double gas that early and you either: 1) scout a missing pylon 2) there is no stalker 3) you lose your scout without finding everything you need, then you pretty much have to play safe and drop an engineering bay early assuming fastest possible proxy oracle. You are ahead on econ. Don't be needlessly greedy. - In most situations an early third is a bad choice because the real power of this bio opening is the 8-12 minute window where you have to get some damage done. Get your stronger army, pressure, don't lose anything with your drops. You want to pick off pylons and probes. | ||
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On May 06 2013 11:12 Jazzman88 wrote: Check out the MKP vs HuK game from Cloud Kingdom. It's under the Pro VoDs section. Also covered in section 4 under 'Early Harass' (talking about multiple Probe harass, again referencing the MKP/HuK game). Ah whoops..didn't see that. xD; awesome then. | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
On May 05 2013 23:16 Jazzman88 wrote: If you're not Masters, you're going to have a hard time, though. Below Masters' league, 9-scouts are more common, and with a 9-scout on a 2-player map it's possible to reactively go proxy Stargate and as stated it's so very hard to defend that. I go CC-first currently every TvP on Whirlwind and Star Station (probably Zerus Prime too, but I haven't played enough games yet in the new season). Not recommended for Derelict Watcher or Klontas Mire, due to the wide open space and easy attack paths. The other 2-player maps are okay, but I think Neo Planet S especially is a difficult one because it's hard to get enough Bunkers into the natural choke to hold a dedicated Immortal bust. Im diamond and just wanted to update on what I think. Well ive been having huhe amounts of success with cc first in the ladder and habe been loving it so far :D | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
Still haven't been 6-8 Gate all-inned with this build. I continue to get very normal lategame positions with this style. Added a section to the OP about Blink All-ins under the 'All-ins' section, plus a reference replay to demonstrate those points in the Author Example Games section. Cheers, all! | ||
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
Didn't realize there was so much CC first at MLG dallas, I had previously been doing the reactor expand -> widow mine build from Innovation. Noticed that Byun removed the vods from his stream though  | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
ANY ANY ANY help at all would be most appreciated! http://drop.sc/334745 | ||
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Niska
31 Posts
Nonetheless I am diamond and still have ways to go. I found your how to react/defend sections very enlightening. Those little tips take hundreds of games to figure out, many people don't appreciate them. I do have a question and maybe its as simple as it doesnet happen after a while. But in diamond I do encounter a Nexus first build once in a while. It usually is a 2 player map and the protoss scouts after pylon and determines im doing CC first. A nexus first with double forge and chrono probes is pretty hard to keep up with. So do you see this at all? If not do you have any recommendations? I would rather not drop 4 rax and all in. If there is a macro way to counter this what should I do ? | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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intense555
United States474 Posts
On May 05 2013 16:36 Figgy wrote: If Protoss sees CC first, you are auto-dead to any good player doing a proxy oracle. You can't scout it unless you get extremely lucky. There is no way you are going to get all the intel you need without a reaper unless your intuition is extremely on the ball. CC first is like Nexus first (dies to a reaper) now. You can do it, but you have to pray they make all the wrong decisions or don't scout you. Isn't worth the trade off of 1 rax expand unless you are huge gambling man. 1 rax fe way safer and doesnt run the same risk of dieing to oracles, early stalker msc, etc.... | ||
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Chemist391
United States366 Posts
On May 06 2013 08:28 Jazzman88 wrote: So you're that guy. May you be plagued with BW Dragoon AI, you bastard. Yeah, that would be pretty good against CC-first. Unfortunately, it's bad against almost everything else. There's a reason I didn't worry too much about proxy 2-gate and 10-gate builds when trying this; it makes up like 1% of all games, so there's no point preparing specifically for it. The 10pylon/10gate/10gas zealot/msc/stalker opening that Sage uses pretty often is probably really good against this. And it's amazing vs most reaper expands, so it *is* actually good enough to do every time you get a PvT on a 2player map (away from my replays atm, but my winrate with this build is extremely high). Something to run some test games against! | ||
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