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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
To those criticizing cc first, of course it dies to certain things, that doesn't mean the build is bad, it's just like every build, it has counters (albeit counters to something like 1 rax fe are soft counters, but they are still in existence), there are builds that super aggressive builds straight out lose to and builds that super eco builds straight out lose to, doesn't mean they're bad builds. Edit: Put their instead of there lol | ||
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megid
Brazil142 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On May 20 2013 01:04 megid wrote: Just tested it with some games, as expected don't work a single game. Post the replays, I'd love to take a look and see what responses the Protoss did to exploit the build; if there's a viable 100% counter I need to know and for that I need replays. If you can, use drop.sc, as it's easier to download from, and specify the league so I know what I'm looking for from Protoss play. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 20 2013 01:11 Jazzman88 wrote: Post the replays, I'd love to take a look and see what responses the Protoss did to exploit the build; if there's a viable 100% counter I need to know and for that I need replays. If you can, use drop.sc, as it's easier to download from, and specify the league so I know what I'm looking for from Protoss play. This build will only work at a high level because the economic advantage due to CC first is only noticeable compared to 1 rax fe if you have constant scv production/perfect early game mechanics, so like you said you need to know what league he's from. | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On May 20 2013 02:25 Jazzman88 wrote: In case some of you don't watch SPL, check out the additions I made to the OP. There was an absolutely sick game played in the STX Soul / CJ Entus match the other day where Innovation did basically this build, and defended a proxy Oracle build blindly, followed by a choo-choo train of pain with SCVs, Marines, Marauders, Medivacs, and Vikings to absolutely smash herO. Beautiful game which shows you how you should be reacting and playing if you're faced with that sort of cheesy stuff. +1. People should start to copy Innovation more, he is a monster. | ||
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TheMagicianSC2
France74 Posts
 THX | ||
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sixilli
51 Posts
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well. Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 25 2013 07:12 awakenx wrote: lol, I just had a pretty great idea that I just got in my head. Tried it out against a clanmate and it worked with great success, mid-masters vs mid masters. What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well. Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not. Or Protoss could count your SCVs, or see your 2'35 rax and understand what you're doing. Hiding your first CC before floating it back on your natural for mindgames is OK (Taeja did it once near Ohana's third), but leaving your first CC on whichever spot you used then going for a quick third CC on your natural afterwards is just too risky. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On May 25 2013 07:12 awakenx wrote: lol, I just had a pretty great idea that I just got in my head. Tried it out against a clanmate and it worked with great success, mid-masters vs mid masters. What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well. Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not. I think its really dangerous and I wouldn't do it. If the probe scouts the cc, it will be significantly delayed. You won't be able to pull scvs to stop the probe harassment as efficiently due to the increased distance. You'll get supply blocked longer at 19. You'll subsequently be weaker against early pokes and gateway attacks. The bigger distance between the bases, and stalkers ability to kite marines will make it really hard to defend both bases too. Blink stalker attacks will be extremely difficult to stop. Oracles also will be much harder to defend as marines won't be able to cover both places as easily. Its very coinflippy and I personally don't think its worth it. Your only method of denying scouting is marines, and stalkers and probes are both faster. I don't think you can safely hide things like that. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On May 25 2013 07:12 awakenx wrote: lol, I just had a pretty great idea that I just got in my head. Tried it out against a clanmate and it worked with great success, mid-masters vs mid masters. What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well. Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not. Whenever you get an idea like this, I encourage you to think of the following: If I did this without the 'trick', would it still be playable? Because you cannot assume that your opponent will never scout it. In this case, in a TvP, going 3 CC with 1 Barracks in HotS is suicide, even if you're doing it with Barracks first. Any Gateway pressure kills you immediately, as well as auto-loss versus any kind of Oracle play. CC-first is already viable against pretty much any build, so there's no reason to do that beyond giving yourself a mental pat on the back for 'tricking' your opponent. Don't succumb to that temptation. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On May 21 2013 08:15 TheMagicianSC2 wrote: Innovation is doing this BO and it works a lot for him THX That is like saying his keyboard works well for him. It has absolutely nothing to do with the build. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On May 15 2013 19:55 T.O.P. wrote: 1 rax FE isn't safe vs oracles. You don't have enough marines to stop the first oracle. You still have to scout the proxy and kill the plyon powering it. Interestingly, you can get 6 marines by 5:10 with this build. Which is just enough marines to kill one oracle. But with a marine defense, you can only defend one location, which means the natural has to be lifted and moved to the main. This build isn't safe vs voidray all ins. Every build in that matchup is a gimmicky coinflip. Get used to it. | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
On June 08 2013 01:07 U_G_L_Y wrote: This build isn't safe vs voidray all ins. Every build in that matchup is a gimmicky coinflip. Get used to it. You actually have more marines from 5 min onwards with a cc first build than you would with a 1 rax fe or a 1rax reactor expand build. So this build can crush voidray all ins easy. | ||
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