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On May 15 2013 07:39 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 08:28 Jazzman88 wrote:On May 06 2013 07:38 -HuShang- wrote:
Time to bring out the 10gate double zealot, stalker, msc it seems So you're that guy. May you be plagued with BW Dragoon AI, you bastard.  Yeah, that would be pretty good against CC-first. Unfortunately, it's bad against almost everything else. There's a reason I didn't worry too much about proxy 2-gate and 10-gate builds when trying this; it makes up like 1% of all games, so there's no point preparing specifically for it. The 10pylon/10gate/10gas zealot/msc/stalker opening that Sage uses pretty often is probably really good against this. And it's amazing vs most reaper expands, so it *is* actually good enough to do every time you get a PvT on a 2player map (away from my replays atm, but my winrate with this build is extremely high). Something to run some test games against!
How does it fare against Reactor expands? I'm still of the opinion that anything 10-gate-based is really coinflippy a la 8-8-8 and requires nothing more than a high-ground Bunker to defend.
What league, as well? I have a feeling that you would auto-win many PvTs at Platinum or below because they don't have the micro/multitasking to defend the early pressure.
Finally, this is why you don't go CC-first on short rush 2-player maps like Derelict Watcher. If someone pulls a 10-gate, 10-gas, zealot/msc/stalker opening on you on Whirlwind where you CC-first, they're losing more than they're winning because they are gambling so much on getting the early scout and early worker kills or other forms of advantage when you don't see it coming. Ergo, not something I'm going to prepare a counter for other than the very standard 'scout at 15 or 16, react accordingly' statement. If you see that much heat coming, Bunker the high ground and defend as necessary so you don't take too many losses.
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thank you for this guide and utube playlist
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I think this (or a slight variation of it) is the standard build Taeja uses TvP on larger maps nowadays, I'll be trying it in lieu of the old 15gas reactor WM for a while, see how it turns out ^^
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On May 15 2013 09:03 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 07:39 Chemist391 wrote:On May 06 2013 08:28 Jazzman88 wrote:On May 06 2013 07:38 -HuShang- wrote:
Time to bring out the 10gate double zealot, stalker, msc it seems So you're that guy. May you be plagued with BW Dragoon AI, you bastard. Yeah, that would be pretty good against CC-first. Unfortunately, it's bad against almost everything else. There's a reason I didn't worry too much about proxy 2-gate and 10-gate builds when trying this; it makes up like 1% of all games, so there's no point preparing specifically for it. The 10pylon/10gate/10gas zealot/msc/stalker opening that Sage uses pretty often is probably really good against this. And it's amazing vs most reaper expands, so it *is* actually good enough to do every time you get a PvT on a 2player map (away from my replays atm, but my winrate with this build is extremely high). Something to run some test games against! How does it fare against Reactor expands? I'm still of the opinion that anything 10-gate-based is really coinflippy a la 8-8-8 and requires nothing more than a high-ground Bunker to defend. What league, as well? I have a feeling that you would auto-win many PvTs at Platinum or below because they don't have the micro/multitasking to defend the early pressure. Finally, this is why you don't go CC-first on short rush 2-player maps like Derelict Watcher. If someone pulls a 10-gate, 10-gas, zealot/msc/stalker opening on you on Whirlwind where you CC-first, they're losing more than they're winning because they are gambling so much on getting the early scout and early worker kills or other forms of advantage when you don't see it coming. Ergo, not something I'm going to prepare a counter for other than the very standard 'scout at 15 or 16, react accordingly' statement. If you see that much heat coming, Bunker the high ground and defend as necessary so you don't take too many losses.
Top 25-top 8 masters NA.
It seems to outright kill the terran very, very often. It usually hits as the reactor is building or just finishing, and nearly always before the bunker is up. Oldschool 2rax defends it well. I have lost two one-sided games with this build:
The first was a proxy floated fact build from the T; we went into a basetrade, but I had no detection.
The second, the terran was a barcode with ~350apm who simply out-micro'd me, threw down 3 more rax instead of a cc (he was gasless), and then pulled all of his scvs in a rine/scv counterattack.
Caliber has told me that he has an incredibly high winrate with this build in GM.
Your point about the map choice is a good one. The 10/10/10 doesn't allow for any scouting. You simply cannot afford it.
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Interested in your thoughts on how terran should react to this.
On smaller maps only, my default opening (as a Protoss, when vs T) is something I saw on Huk's stream.
(Note: Small maps)
13 Gate, Chrono 2 Zealots rallied to terran base.
Sometimes I get there as the bunker is finishing (kill the scv) or has finished (go round it) with the first zealot.
Second zealot comes in also as your first hits main mineral line, making terran choose to stay at the front, or defend.
MSC asap as well as a stalker (MSC comes out when a reaper appears, if applicable), MSC goes to T Front.
At times, I can add another gate, and outright kill terran with stalker warpins (while taking an expo)
Even if, I cant get any damage done, I can still force another bunker by constant stalker pressure (and take my own expand and quicker upgrades)
I feel like this whole CC first thing is super greedy play, so what I saw Huk do felt like a good way to punish/pressure it.
Just interested in Terran thoughts.
EDIT: Probably sounds similar to the above posts i guess, still interested, I'm having a lot of success with it.
EDIT2: Your advice is sound on T not going CC first on smaller maps (Im just glad more dont listen  )
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I started to throw down a 3rd pylon in a proxy location on my side of the map just to make him waste mins on ebay and turrets.
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On May 15 2013 12:15 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
I started to throw down a 3rd pylon in a proxy location on my side of the map just to make him waste mins on ebay and turrets.
Against a gas expand like Reactor or Reaper expands that is smart mind-gaming, but against a CC-first, he has so many minerals, it's pointless. The 2 Turrets don't delay anything by a build-changing amount, and he wants the upgrades for his bio anyways. If you're not going to follow up that mindgame with a non-proxy play that tries to take advantage (for example, going Robo all-in off one base), you're just wasting the mining time of the probe. Add to that, if you fake that, then go for the expand or all-in, you're worse off because he just scouts you not doing the proxy play and gets a free pylon kill whenever he wants when you did nothing productive with it.
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On May 15 2013 07:39 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 08:28 Jazzman88 wrote:On May 06 2013 07:38 -HuShang- wrote:
Time to bring out the 10gate double zealot, stalker, msc it seems So you're that guy. May you be plagued with BW Dragoon AI, you bastard. Yeah, that would be pretty good against CC-first. Unfortunately, it's bad against almost everything else. There's a reason I didn't worry too much about proxy 2-gate and 10-gate builds when trying this; it makes up like 1% of all games, so there's no point preparing specifically for it. The 10pylon/10gate/10gas zealot/msc/stalker opening that Sage uses pretty often is probably really good against this. And it's amazing vs most reaper expands, so it *is* actually good enough to do every time you get a PvT on a 2player map (away from my replays atm, but my winrate with this build is extremely high). Something to run some test games against!
I accidentally held a 10 gate on Neo Planet S yesterday, and upon reflection defending it seems pretty trivial. The Zealot reached my natural at 4'05; I was on autopilot and didn't recognize at all the suspiciously early MSC, so I tried to build my Bunker on lowground, but if you build it on highground you won't take much damage; the first rax is done at ~3'45 so your Bunker would already be at 50-60% done when the Zealot walks up the ramp, at which time it's just a matter of surrounding it with SCVs and completing the Bunker before the Stalker and the MSC join the party (~4'35).
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 15 2013 07:36 intense555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 16:36 Figgy wrote:
If Protoss sees CC first, you are auto-dead to any good player doing a proxy oracle. You can't scout it unless you get extremely lucky. There is no way you are going to get all the intel you need without a reaper unless your intuition is extremely on the ball.
CC first is like Nexus first (dies to a reaper) now. You can do it, but you have to pray they make all the wrong decisions or don't scout you.
Isn't worth the trade off of 1 rax expand unless you are huge gambling man. 1 rax fe way safer and doesnt run the same risk of dieing to oracles, early stalker msc, etc....
1 rax FE isn't safe vs oracles. You don't have enough marines to stop the first oracle. You still have to scout the proxy and kill the plyon powering it.
Interestingly, you can get 6 marines by 5:10 with this build. Which is just enough marines to kill one oracle. But with a marine defense, you can only defend one location, which means the natural has to be lifted and moved to the main.
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I've been focusing on CC first builds lately in Platinum with huge success. (Broken my recent losing streaks).
80% of the time I play against Protoss it's oracle harass,early warp prism, DT's or just some build that uses lots of gas early.
With CC first I just calmly hold it off, make an accurate read, then stim in around 10-12 mins and kill him with 1-1 upgrades.
In regards to proxy oracle I'm very active and have 2-3 SCV's poking around common spots, also one in his base looking for pylon numbers etc so I can tell if one is coming. 9/10 I'll see it coming and focus on pure marine production and perhaps cancel my CC or anything that is building that won't assist in killing oracles.
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On May 15 2013 19:55 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 07:36 intense555 wrote:On May 05 2013 16:36 Figgy wrote:
If Protoss sees CC first, you are auto-dead to any good player doing a proxy oracle. You can't scout it unless you get extremely lucky. There is no way you are going to get all the intel you need without a reaper unless your intuition is extremely on the ball.
CC first is like Nexus first (dies to a reaper) now. You can do it, but you have to pray they make all the wrong decisions or don't scout you.
Isn't worth the trade off of 1 rax expand unless you are huge gambling man. 1 rax fe way safer and doesnt run the same risk of dieing to oracles, early stalker msc, etc.... 1 rax FE isn't safe vs oracles. You don't have enough marines to stop the first oracle. You still have to scout the proxy and kill the plyon powering it. Interestingly, you can get 6 marines by 5:10 with this build. Which is just enough marines to kill one oracle. But with a marine defense, you can only defend one location, which means the natural has to be lifted and moved to the main.
Nope, precisely you have only 5 (the sixth one is out at ~5'25 assuming a ~2'40 15 rax), while 1 rax FE has 6 Marines at 5'12.
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This guide is ridiculously good, man. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention. Maybe because it's standard and straight up? It seems all the gimmick build guides get more views.
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wow... im a diamond terran with a bit a low masters mmr.... I used this build for the first time against a mid masters protoss and took my first win, propably the first one ever vs a masters Protoss, not to mention mid.... Just following basic BO and structure framework gives you a really big edge in mid game. If your opponent goes for his standard FE choice he really is behind..
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On May 16 2013 09:25 policymaker wrote:
wow... im a diamond terran with a bit a low masters mmr.... I used this build for the first time against a mid masters protoss and took my first win, propably the first one ever vs a masters Protoss, not to mention mid.... Just following basic BO and structure framework gives you a really big edge in mid game. If your opponent goes for his standard FE choice he really is behind..
Precisely. It also forces you to practice the most difficult parts of TvP, reading early all-ins and managing lategame armies, because you either confront an all-in or go full speed into a macro game. As you said, if he goes middle of the road he just tends to die.
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yeah.. the build is so effective, you just have to keep a good spending level and you have a great advantage... I even lost 2 full medivacs in my first drop, but I still won thanx to a solid economy and and a couple of correct choices
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Wow... this guide is just beautiful. It brings tears to my manly terran eyes, as I finally beat a Protoss in a macro game thanks to this guide ;_;
perhaps I can salvage my TvP winrate
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An amazing guide: finally some good TL service to Terran players! By far the most solid way to play the matchup.
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I can't see this working. 9/10 games on ladder against protoss are some sort of cheese. I'm blind countering already. If not, is a all in. I cannot undertand why, because P has a fucking strong late game.
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On May 20 2013 00:02 megid wrote:
I can't see this working. 9/10 games on ladder against protoss are some sort of cheese. I'm blind countering already. If not, is a all in. I cannot undertand why, because P has a fucking strong late game.
If you transition right and keep up good scouting you can hold most all-ins
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On May 20 2013 00:02 megid wrote:
I can't see this working. 9/10 games on ladder against protoss are some sort of cheese. I'm blind countering already. If not, is a all in. I cannot undertand why, because P has a fucking strong late game.
That's what the replays and VoDs are there for, because it DOES work, assuming you aren't going blind no-scout CC on the low ground. If you're afraid of cheese, don't go CC-first on smaller rush maps. I generally go between 12-12 Reaper into E-bay, 12-12 Reaper into Factory, and this build, depending on map and if I know the opponent.
Try it yourself before you dismiss it with a hand-wave of you can't 'see it working', please. If you have a specific question about a specific all-in, I may have covered it already under the two sections reserved for all-ins and harassment, or I might be able to answer your specific worry in detail if I've encountered similar play on the ladder with this build.
Cheers!
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EPT
