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Hi all,
thanks for the guide, i really enjoyed all the vod's and replays that are in there. However I have still some questions:
- Is it normal that when i execute this build i don't have a perfect workers production before the transformation of the 2 cc in orbital command? If I want to avoid those little "cuts" i need to put my raxes on 16/17 supply, is it bad ?
- I saw forgg stop his worker production at 18 to get his 1st marine as soon as his rax finishes, it is "standard" to do that ?
- Do you think that getting a reaper with your 50 first gaz or after the stim is a good idea if you scouted a expand before 5 min 30 ?
- How is forgg able to get his factory start before 6 min 20 ? I can't start it before 6 min 30.
- Should i get my 5th and 6th gaz 30 sec before my 3rd command center is finished or should i wait a little ?
-When should i stop making workers (if i don't loose any during the game) ?
Sorry for my english and thx for making this guide.
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On June 10 2013 03:42 Skyblueone wrote:
Hi all,
thanks for the guide, i really enjoyed all the vod's and replays that are in there. However I have still some questions:
- Is it normal that when i execute this build i don't have a perfect workers production before the transformation of the 2 cc in orbital command? If I want to avoid those little "cuts" i need to put my raxes on 16/17 supply, is it bad ?
- I saw forgg stop his worker production at 18 to get his 1st marine as soon as his rax finishes, it is "standard" to do that ?
- Do you think that getting a reaper with your 50 first gaz or after the stim is a good idea if you scouted a expand before 5 min 30 ?
- How is forgg able to get his factory start before 6 min 20 ? I can't start it before 6 min 30.
- Should i get my 5th and 6th gaz 30 sec before my 3rd command center is finished or should i wait a little ?
-When should i stop making workers (if i don't loose any during the game) ?
Sorry for my english and thx for making this guide.
You will naturally have brief worker stoppages on 14/19 supply for your CC, 15/19 supply for Barracks 1, and 16/19 supply for Barracks 2. This is normal.
ForGG's stopping of the worker production is very normal. I also do it that way, in case of chrono'd Zealot/Stalker harass. In addition, if he scouts the CC-first early, I always cut my second OC transformation for about 10-15 seconds so I can get a Bunker down as fast as possible while still producing Marines, thus minimizing the time I'll need to micro against incoming units.
Getting a Reaper is silly after Stim, because by the time it finishes and crosses the map, the Protoss should have more than enough at his front (or yours) to deny the scout of the Reaper. Spend the gas on Factory tech and +1 Weapons or add-ons.
If you start both Refineries before Depot #2, 2 things happen: first, you get supply blocked for a few seconds unless you cut Marines or SCVs; secondly, you get earlier gas so things like Stim and Factory tech are sped up. Assuming perfect macro and the earliest possible gas, the Factory can be started as early as 6:15.
In TvP, unless you're going mass Ghost really early, you don't need gas 5 and 6 at your third until after you've started getting your tier 2 upgrades. I don't even get gas 4 until after I start my second set of Medivacs.
Generally speaking, if you lose 0 SCVs over the course of the game, you will have the maximum necessary amount by 13:00-14:00. Keep the worker counts on your command centers, and when you see 16/24 on minerals at each base and 3/3 on each gas, you're done with the necessary workers. It's nice to have a few beyond that number to keep up the macroing with building Barracks, Starports, and more CCs, but if you're still going 3 SCVs at a time at 14:30, I guarantee that you've got too many workers unless you lost a ton early on.
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On June 09 2013 07:32 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Since the rax is later I am afraid to get addons since in WOL I got my first gas before my other 2 rax and bunker for ultra fast stim, but I guess Blink takes longer now so the first blink in doesn't come until 8 stalkers instead of 5?
How do you tell if it is a proxy twilight, robo, or SG? I had 2 SCVs out looking for it (never found it), by the time I realized that the third pylon had to be powering a twilight since it wasn't near my base, it was too late to opt for techlabs.
Another game I found it but again, it was too late for techlabs, I had bunkers, Ebay, turrets, and he just jumped past it all and kited my naked +1 marines and SCVs to death.
Blink attacks in WoL also came with 7-8 Stalkers in the first wave when done correctly.
You should have a SCV on the map looking for common proxies if you see no expand by 4' (assuming he saw CC first and doesn't chrono his gate to pressure you), but sometimes you can't know. You can always retreat in your main in this case, holding there is easier with the tight ramp. You can usually rule out proxy Oracles quite fast since Protoss always send the first Oracle to harass.
On June 10 2013 03:42 Skyblueone wrote:
Hi all,
thanks for the guide, i really enjoyed all the vod's and replays that are in there. However I have still some questions:
- Is it normal that when i execute this build i don't have a perfect workers production before the transformation of the 2 cc in orbital command? If I want to avoid those little "cuts" i need to put my raxes on 16/17 supply, is it bad ?
Building your rax at 16/17 instead of 15/16 will lead to (more) troubles against chrono'ed gate units.
- I saw forgg stop his worker production at 18 to get his 1st marine as soon as his rax finishes, it is "standard" to do that ?
Yes, otherwise you're supply blocked at 19/19 for some seconds with your first Marine, with the same issue as above.
-When should i stop making workers (if i don't loose any during the game) ?
Around 65-70. 75 at most in all cases.
On June 10 2013 04:28 Jazzman88 wrote:
Getting a Reaper is silly after Stim, because by the time it finishes and crosses the map, the Protoss should have more than enough at his front (or yours) to deny the scout of the Reaper.
It's very useful actually, though map-dependant naturally (not something you would do on Whirlwind); the Reaper can get a full scout of Protoss' base, thus allowing you to react to dual forge with for example an early third on the spot (e. g. Last vs Rain, Akilon Wastes, SPL; ThorZaIN also used similar Reaper scouts in his series against Creator at the MLG Winter Exhibition Consolation Bracket). The possible Stalker(s) in front of your natural is not a problem as long as the map layout allows your Reaper to bypass said Stalker, same as units in front of his natural aren't a issue if you can circumvent them (plus sometimes they're still parked in his mineral lines if he played blind until his first Hallucination).
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On June 10 2013 05:12 TheDwf wrote:It's very useful actually, though map-dependant naturally (not something you would do on Whirlwind); the Reaper can get a full scout of Protoss' base, thus allowing you to react to dual forge with for example an early third on the spot (e. g. Last vs Rain, Akilon Wastes, SPL; ThorZaIN also used similar Reaper scouts in his series against Creator at the MLG Winter Exhibition Consolation Bracket). The possible Stalker(s) in front of your natural is not a problem as long as the map layout allows your Reaper to bypass said Stalker, same as units in front of his natural aren't a issue if you can circumvent them (plus sometimes they're still parked in his mineral lines if he played blind until his first Hallucination).
Do you actually encounter situations where this is possible and works out to be more important than delaying the Factory and your +1? It seems counterintuitive to me, but I'm perfectly willing to be shown where I'm wrong with that. I would just have thought that you want to keep those Marines or Marauders going just to be safe against any pressure and the presence of a MsC and/or Zealot/Stalker would make it very hard to justify the expense of the Reaper.
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On June 10 2013 05:31 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 05:12 TheDwf wrote:It's very useful actually, though map-dependant naturally (not something you would do on Whirlwind); the Reaper can get a full scout of Protoss' base, thus allowing you to react to dual forge with for example an early third on the spot (e. g. Last vs Rain, Akilon Wastes, SPL; ThorZaIN also used similar Reaper scouts in his series against Creator at the MLG Winter Exhibition Consolation Bracket). The possible Stalker(s) in front of your natural is not a problem as long as the map layout allows your Reaper to bypass said Stalker, same as units in front of his natural aren't a issue if you can circumvent them (plus sometimes they're still parked in his mineral lines if he played blind until his first Hallucination). Do you actually encounter situations where this is possible and works out to be more important than delaying the Factory and your +1? It seems counterintuitive to me, but I'm perfectly willing to be shown where I'm wrong with that. I would just have thought that you want to keep those Marines or Marauders going just to be safe against any pressure and the presence of a MsC and/or Zealot/Stalker would make it very hard to justify the expense of the Reaper.
You do that when you go dual gas instead of an immediate third rax, so the fact isn't notably delayed. That Reaper has actually saved me a few times from all-ins since you can see them in advance and prepare accordingly.
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On June 09 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:Doesn't look good at all. Delaying your Medivacs for so long is just giving Protoss a special favour. Going 4 rax is pointless against standard play since you won't be able to pressure (Protoss will just PO and hold with his first units). You will also freelose to some 2-bases all-ins like 6'30 robobay into 2-bases Colossi. I don't understand the reasoning behind his build order.
Can this variant work as a reaction to blink all-in? It seems to do fairly well against that particular all-in that causes me too much pain ><
I figured it doesn't work as well as standard, as pumping out that many units against a Protoss that isn't all-inning is sort of pointless. Perhaps it could work against a few other all-ins, though.
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On June 10 2013 07:32 awakenx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:Doesn't look good at all. Delaying your Medivacs for so long is just giving Protoss a special favour. Going 4 rax is pointless against standard play since you won't be able to pressure (Protoss will just PO and hold with his first units). You will also freelose to some 2-bases all-ins like 6'30 robobay into 2-bases Colossi. I don't understand the reasoning behind his build order. Can this variant work as a reaction to blink all-in?
Nope, you would have only Marines for the first wave; the gas just come into effect too late. The best answer is 3 rax add-ons (CC rax rax rax gas gas lab lab reactor) teching slower to Medivacs as gas allows.
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Thx for your answer, after a few try I really think that building the cc on the high ground is better. If you build it on the low ground, you will alway need to pull 2 vcs to counter the probes harass and maybe even repair the vcs that was harassed.
I can understand that cutting corners can be tempting but this is just bad greediness.
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On June 08 2013 05:18 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 03:09 WeRRa wrote:
Just wanted to note that Innovation goes 15/17 rax, Flash 14/16 rax and TY 14/15 rax. I guess the 15/16 rax isn't that comon among kespa players and 14/15 or 14/16 rax is pretty save vs early agression. This is really cool actually, thanks for sharing!
Huh, I've been using the 15/17, but I tried the 14/16 to be safer (after hearing Xenocider explain why someone would wanna use it.) But the rest of the build feels a little wonky to me when I 14/16..
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After a long time hardly coping in ladder with this build, and my tvp falling under 40%, I had to abandon this build, at least as my main one. Unfortunately, it didnt appear to suit my diamond-ish level of aggression style which I like. As a player, I feel that if I dont put any aggression tomy opponent, I will fall victim to it. And I am idd a horrible defender. As a result, half the times they faced me and the protoss decided to all in me, especially blink stalker all in, I always lost, due to no fast factory( I always aimed for a 2rax follow up).
The thing is, as one can read in the hots protoss thread as well, the cc first doesnt even give you that of an edge if protoss FEs as well. It just wasnt worth the risk for me. I switched to reaper opening>reactor>CC which keeps protoss busy enough, along with a 1/1/1 follow up for mine harass, and I instantly regained confidence.
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Hm, I lost to a proxy 10 gate with core recently using CC first on the lowground and 15/16 rax. He had a zealot and a stalker at my nat by 4mn and a few seconds. Are you supposed to be able to defend? I don't think I saw mention of it in the OP.
I pulled a lot of SCVs and died anyway, managed to get a bunker up but had too few marines + didn't place it well, so he was still able to harass my main mineral line with his stalkers. I also was supply blocked for a little while because my CC's building was interrupted at 90% or so, and it took me some time to get an scv to sneak and finish it.
Is it better to wall off anyway? He could still harass the depots with the stalkers, and kill scvs, but at least you have a bit of time to get your marine count up.. I'm not sure I could have defended even without the supply block and with a better placed bunker, he could have just ran by and still would have killed all my SCVs.
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On June 21 2013 20:45 Nimix wrote:
Hm, I lost to a proxy 10 gate with core recently using CC first on the lowground and 15/16 rax. He had a zealot and a stalker at my nat by 4mn and a few seconds. Are you supposed to be able to defend? I don't think I saw mention of it in the OP.
I pulled a lot of SCVs and died anyway, managed to get a bunker up but had too few marines + didn't place it well, so he was still able to harass my main mineral line with his stalkers. I also was supply blocked for a little while because my CC's building was interrupted at 90% or so, and it took me some time to get an scv to sneak and finish it.
Is it better to wall off anyway? He could still harass the depots with the stalkers, and kill scvs, but at least you have a bit of time to get your marine count up.. I'm not sure I could have defended even without the supply block and with a better placed bunker, he could have just ran by and still would have killed all my SCVs.
Proxy 10 gate on the low ground would require some very very fancy micro and SCV pulls. What map did this get played on? Certain maps make me scout my main a little, especially if I see 0 scout from the Protoss.
In addition, you can just play high-ground CC on certain maps if you see it that often.
I generally consider proxy 10 gate to be very hard to hold, but since it dies to a bunch of other stuff like a wall, you can't really account for it 100%. Basic technique is to finish the CC, get the Barracks to the wall, and put all your SCVs/CCs and a Bunker on the opposite side of the wall from the Zealots. Eventually you will get enough Marines that you can just overwhelm him.
In your case, with a proxy 10-gate and core? That actually seems just bad and aside from the benefit of him getting a bunch of SCV kills, that shouldn't actually be good. When did you scout? I would have thought that your scout would let you at least start preparing for that by pre-pulling SCVs to deal with the Zealot, and getting a Bunker finished ASAP. Assuming you don't stop the Barracks building ever, a Bunker should go down by about 4:10. Also, proxy gate followed by core isn't nearly that good because while the Stalker can micro, you should be able to surround it and finish the Bunker with correct micro, unlike how Zealots murder SCVs. You might end up behind, but you will have the double CC to catch back up.
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It was on belshir vestige, he did a very odd thing like he sent his probe super super early, checked both watchtowers and then blindly proxied just outside my nat out of the scouting path.
As I said his zealot/stalker appeared in my nat at 4mn so the scouting timing would have been irrelevant (as I couldn't have finished my bunker in time anyway, it was building at the nat when his units arrived). The thing with this build is that he gets one zealot and then only stalkers. I killed the zealot with a scv surround, but he then killed the marine, and just kited SCVs/marines to death then as I already lost a lot of scvs. My bunker completed near my CC in the main but it was stupid as marines were out of range of stalkers attacking SCVs, and he eventually had 4/5 stalkers and I was boned.
So you think that a better placed bunker would have done the trick? And then walling of around it I guess. Cause otherwise he can just run by with stalkers and kill marines as they get out of raxes and/or just kill scvs.
This build isn't that bad by the way, IIRC I saw it used in gsl a couple time in WoL. Stalkers are pretty powerful early  thanks for the insight
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On June 21 2013 21:46 Nimix wrote:It was on belshir vestige, he did a very odd thing like he sent his probe super super early, checked both watchtowers and then blindly proxied just outside my nat out of the scouting path. As I said his zealot/stalker appeared in my nat at 4mn so the scouting timing would have been irrelevant (as I couldn't have finished my bunker in time anyway, it was building at the nat when his units arrived). The thing with this build is that he gets one zealot and then only stalkers. I killed the zealot with a scv surround, but he then killed the marine, and just kited SCVs/marines to death then as I already lost a lot of scvs. My bunker completed near my CC in the main but it was stupid as marines were out of range of stalkers attacking SCVs, and he eventually had 4/5 stalkers and I was boned. So you think that a better placed bunker would have done the trick? And then walling of around it I guess. Cause otherwise he can just run by with stalkers and kill marines as they get out of raxes and/or just kill scvs. This build isn't that bad by the way, IIRC I saw it used in gsl a couple time in WoL. Stalkers are pretty powerful early thanks for the insight
I think it's absolutely critical to do two things: as soon as you're guaranteed the Zealot kill, make sure you keep 1 Marine alive to get into the Bunker and use SCVs to block the Stalker from bypassing Bunker fire range. You can pull probably 10 SCVs to do this because when you get double OC, you will VERY quickly catch back up whatever lead your opponent gained, and as soon as the Bunker finishes, you will only get stronger because more and more Marines will get into it. Use the ramp; you cannot let him get up the ramp and into the main. Put the Bunker at the nat in a position where it can cover at least half the ramp and play it out normally.
Alternatively, if you went high-ground CC, you automatically win once the Bunker gets up unless you fail to scout the DT/Gateway all-in that follows once he realizes how boned he is.
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Supernova has just used this build in the osl against squirtle, however he got mothership core poked at the start. He then followed up with a widow mine drop instead of immediate double medivacs and won with an scv pull off two base.
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On June 27 2013 18:47 TheVoicedElk wrote:
Supernova has just used this build in the osl against squirtle, however he got mothership core poked at the start. He then followed up with a widow mine drop instead of immediate double medivacs and won with an scv pull off two base.
To be more precise, + Show Spoiler [OSL Group G] +Squirtle went 10 gate and SuperNova held losing only 6 SCVs. He had built the CC on highground, couldn't complete his bunk lowground because of the Zealot but pulled some SCVs to defend.
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Can't believe I just came across this guide now. So much useful information, tyvm Jazzman88! Will definitely be recommending this guide to my Terran frienemies.
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http://drop.sc/347682
So here's a recent game where I open 14cc. I think my early game was fine(?) and the third timing was OK, but after i dropped him, i think things fell apart. What should I be doing in this situation? I feel like TvP, i have to deny the third, but at the same time, 2base protoss > 3rax until my 5rax kicks in...
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A run-down of your game, doktorLucifer:
- Excellent decision to open high-ground 14CC when he scouts you super early to guard against Zealots. Consider placing it closer to the edge for a quicker landing at the natural.
- Consider keeping 3 of your initial 4 Marines out of the Bunker until absolutely necessary so you can deflect any MSC harass really quickly.
- your +1 Armor upgrade doesn't start for a while even though you can afford it; this happens with all of your upgrades throughout the game
- third timing is good, good push-out with Medivacs/bio
- correct decision to pull back when he uses his Forcefields
- major problem alert: @ 12:00, you have 48 SCVs, having lost 2... you should have 60 or so by this point, so your mineral income will be lower than it needs to be, and your third is hardly saturated at all
- it's okay to trade army supply like you're doing in the midgame here, getting Sentries/Immortals here and there, because your economy is much better
- @14:00, when you see he isn't defending all his base, the doom drop is correct; however, you should stim and stutter step to target down Probes and tech, and not even bother to engage his army. Reasoning is you know you're way ahead, so getting rid of his tech and economy makes it impossible for him to win the game since you're already much bigger in army terms.
- @15:00 I see no Ghost Academy, only 54 SCVs, and 2/1 only just finishing (at the very least 3/2 needs to be on the way right now, if not done)
- @17:00 when you skirmish at the front, there's no reason to not load up 2 Medivacs and drop his main (you're up 50 army supply), then if he tries to defend that, crush the natural
- @17:30 when he catches you at the front, you just don't react in time to save Medivacs, but you can just keep calm, pull back, and keep macroing (don't lose rallied units like you do, use the Select All key if you have to); also, here would be another great opportunity to double drop his main base or snipe the third
- When your entire army regroups outside his third, split him three ways: drop the main with 2 Medivacs, drop the nat with 2 Medivacs, then kill his third if he moves to defend (no possibility for him to save all bases).
- 4th is STILL NOT LANDED right now.
- @20:00, only 2/1 upgrades... OUCH
- @21:00, better Ghost control just wins the game outright, there's a bunch of EMPs that don't land on Templars and you lose some to Feedback and Gateway unit snipes... if he doesn't have Storm there, you just faceroll him
After this it's pretty academic, because there have been so many opportunities to kill him left untouched that I think psychologically you're at the disadvantage even though you have more bases and such. Especially after you waltz Ghosts into Colossi fire, then get mass-stormed, it's easy to see where it's going: he gets 4 bases of gas, makes a deathball, Warp Prism backstabs you, and that's pretty much game.
In summary, you handled the opening well, but the macro of the upgrades and decision-making regarding splitting his army and taking what he leaves could be fixed. Ghost control needs to be better (don't walk them too far forward unless you KNOW you're getting the Templar in exchange) as well.
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Really helpful, thanks a lot.
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EPT
