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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On June 10 2013 03:42 Skyblueone wrote: - I saw forgg stop his worker production at 18 to get his 1st marine as soon as his rax finishes, it is "standard" to do that ? It's not standard at all but i think it should be with this build, CC first is very weak to so many different builds that chrono gate units | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 08 2013 10:02 c0sm0naut wrote: It's not standard at all but i think it should be with this build, CC first is very weak to so many different builds that chrono gate units This is correct - you are only delaying your SCV production by a few seconds, in exchange for getting a faster initial Orbital Command, plus this is the only way to have the Marines arriving in close to the correct time to stop chronoboosted Zealot harass. Ideally, your SCV scout should sniff out anything earlier than simply chronoboosted Zealots (10-gate, I'm looking at you), which you can react to by delaying Orbital Command #2 until you have started the front Bunker plus pulling 5-6 SCVs to block for the Marine until the Bunker finishes and you can chase off the harass. Note: make sure that after you have started both OCs and the Bunker that you do NOT skip any Marines or miss the timing of the third Barracks, lest a quick Mothership Core ruin your day. | ||
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doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 10 2013 07:27 doktorLucifer wrote: How does a 14cc 14rax 15/16rax fare vs that chrono'd zealot? Is it worth going 14cc14rax for any reason (other than maybe this?) It's very uncommon. No pro I see go CC-first goes 14-rax. It's universally 15-rax and then either 16-rax or 17-rax (Innovation tends towards 17-rax, Polt does 16-rax typically). The problem with 14-rax after CC-first is that you're skipping the SCV further, which takes away from mining time, meaning you don't have enough money to get the fast double OC as well as the Marine and Bunker, which is what you're stalling for in a chrono'd Zealot situation. Ergo, you're trying to beat him in speed, but 1 Zealot > 1 Marine anyways, so you might as well sacrifice the 1 or 2 SCVs you'll have to to complete the Bunker and get the Marine in it, rather than artificially constrict your economy for the sole purpose of a faster Marine with doesn't deal with the threat until the Bunker you need that money for arrives anyways. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
 Awesome guide I've taken this guide to heart and is the main build I use in Tvp. Though I struggle in the match up in general I feel I'll be able to progress significantly because of using this guide which I have already! lol | ||
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jae7cho
35 Posts
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Thez558
Italy25 Posts
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PraY
United States5 Posts
On July 21 2013 21:26 Thez558 wrote: Can this work vs Z too? I have seen Marineking use this build successfully vs zerg, exploiting early than normal medivac stim timings and multipronging, but keep in mind if you lose your army with a build like this, you are not being backed up by a strong economy and must either have traded extremely well or force a counter-error such as a low tech allin that you stuff. It's tricky to learn compared to the more linear 3cc plays but definitely usable. I am not certain about this part but I think if zerg identifies that you are doing this build he has multiple ways of utterly destroying it via mass roach/hydra production on relatively low drone counts (~60), since he knows how late you will be mining off 3. The real way this build gets ahead vs Z (in my limited experience with it) is on the threat alone once medivacs are out and moving, and it's ability to clear out creep rapidly and possibly force awful trades in the event that he wasn't expecting so many marines so soon. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 21 2013 21:26 Thez558 wrote: Can this work vs Z too? Innovation style CC -> Rax -> gas is so much better versus Zerg than this that it isn't even funny. The reason this build works versus Protoss is that you're going to be running bio 90% of the time anyways and the only thing you want to hold early all-ins are Bunkers/Marines/Turrets, so 2-Rax is a good followup. With Zerg, you want Factory and Starport tech quickly to get things like Mines, Tanks, and Vikings. If you try to play this style versus Zerg, you have to find a way to deny any and all scouting, because the moment he sees a 3-rax followup instead of a quick Factory, he will approximate an 8:30-10:00 timing on your part, take a quick third, morph 20 Banelings when the time comes, and faceroll your moveout. He will then counter any third you've taken and make your life very miserable. With the quick Factory style, this is not possible to the same extent because he needs to make lings/spines/queens early to defend Hellions. Ergo, use the Innovation/Flash/every pro Terran style of CC-first versus Zerg rather than this build which is optimized to exploit Protoss play (Zerg and Protoss playing fairly differently - :D). | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On July 08 2013 10:02 c0sm0naut wrote: It's not standard at all but i think it should be with this build, CC first is very weak to so many different builds that chrono gate units What are you talking about dude. EVERY CC first stops scv at 18, builds double orbital, than a marine. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On July 25 2013 01:25 Lock0n wrote: Any suggestions about how to hold a cannon rush while going cc first? If toss sets up a pylon wall back of mineral line, is the only solution to float cc away? We need more context: do you see the Probe entering your base at a suspicious time? If so, put 1 SCV on it and look for the Pylons going up. Do you catch a glimpse of his low-ground building as he attempts to move to high ground with Cannon coverage? Block his pathing with SCVs and gang him until you get a couple of Marines. Did he go proxy Forge in-base? Well, if you put your initial Depot in good places you can see proxies (including 2-gate) before they become a threat. I have never lost a CC-first to a cannon rush that I can remember, simply because I use good SCV micro and block as much as I can on the highground, then wall my ramp with a Bunker, and push out to take my natural once he has no high ground vision and I can snipe Pylons/Cannons from high ground. If he tries a 4-gate followup it's so delayed that I simply hold with easy Bunker repairs, and if he goes DTs it's again delayed and I put at least 1 Turret at my front to guard against that possibility. Regarding the second part of your question (pylon wall behind mineral lines), this is why you put an SCV on the Probe quickly. Try to cut him off at first so your SCV is close, and then just follow him. This will make his pathing more complicated, and if he starts the Pylon wall, you can pull additional workers to block one side (a-move them), while using the SCV following the Probe to try and block any cannons from landing (use your intuition to try and get ahead of where he might want to place them). | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On July 25 2013 01:58 Rhaegal wrote: What are you talking about dude. EVERY CC first stops scv at 18, builds double orbital, than a marine. Erm, yes, this. You can squeeze out scv #19 and start the oc ~3-4 sec late BUT your marine will be supply blocked forever which is not cool and leads to death and stuff. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
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never_Nal
Costa Rica676 Posts
On July 26 2013 12:00 rikter wrote: Anyone else notice an inordinate amount of DT play in response to CC first? It doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me, since I have scans and money for turrets long before the dts actually hit. Just curious if anyone else has noticed this or if its just a product of smaller sample size Yea a lot TBH, I played 6 TvP's and got 5 DT Rush in a row, it's important to have your ebay timing very very crisp, or else you can lose, but once you stop this, your agro could win the game or cripple his army, or you just can tale 3rd and 4th cc, and macro your way into the best midgame army | ||
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doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
The only way I can see it working is if he responds in a greedy fashion and delays his MSC enough (and you can't really differentiate protoss greed from all-in unless you get a very revealing scout...) | ||
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TheAnathema
Sweden2 Posts
A lot of people seems worried about one base all-ins from protoss while using this build and even though you should scout with your 17 supply SCV and also scan if you need to I don't feel it's any harder to hold these things. CC first gives you that little mineral boost that allows you to put up a bunker or turret without it hurting you too much. It's actually quite hard for protoss to punish a CC first since when they scout it, it's already too late to hard counter it. I think the best thing for a protoss to do is to put down their nexus a.s.a.p when they see this (correct me if I'm wrong). Demuslim for example uses this build a lot and also another version of it with even earlier gas and addons. Also flash used it while he was streaming (Twitch VOD of flash streaming). To those who say that you need to be a master level Terran or above to be able to pull this off (I've heard this a lot) I can say that I'm a platinum level Terran and I rarely die to any one base play from the protoss player while doing this build. You don't need GM micro unless your opponent is GM. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 22 2013 20:39 TheAnathema wrote: I use Innovations CC first build, that can be found on Imbabuilds (http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-innovations-cc-first/), on ladder for every TvP. Doing that allows me to get the economy I need to get enough vikings and/or ghosts. I have increased my win rate in TvP by far with this build. From like 48% to 67%. A lot of people seems worried about one base all-ins from protoss while using this build and even though you should scout with your 17 supply SCV and also scan if you need to I don't feel it's any harder to hold these things. CC first gives you that little mineral boost that allows you to put up a bunker or turret without it hurting you too much. It's actually quite hard for protoss to punish a CC first since when they scout it, it's already too late to hard counter it. I think the best thing for a protoss to do is to put down their nexus a.s.a.p when they see this (correct me if I'm wrong). Demuslim for example uses this build a lot and also another version of it with even earlier gas and addons. Also flash used it while he was streaming (Twitch VOD of flash streaming). To those who say that you need to be a master level Terran or above to be able to pull this off (I've heard this a lot) I can say that I'm a platinum level Terran and I rarely die to any one base play from the protoss player while doing this build. You don't need GM micro unless your opponent is GM. Regarding the Protoss responses to this, it depends on when they scout it. If the Protoss scouts on 13, it will depend on the path he checks and how close the nat is to the main. For example, on Akilon Wastes, the Probe won't see a 14CC on the low ground unless it specifically checks for it. If that's the case, and the Protoss tries to expand as soon as he/she confirms the CC-first, you will probably have a scouting SCV ready to delay the natural by that point. In that case, or alternatively, if the Protoss doesn't scout and just goes safe 1-gate FE, they will be behind with no compensation due to cutting things like Zealot/early gas for Nexus and getting a later Nexus than your CC with no pressure on the faster expand. If the Protoss gets a good 13-scout (i.e. scouts you first on a 4p map or 13 scouts with nat check on a 2p map), then yes, expanding ASAP with a canceled Zealot and delayed Cybernetics Core can catch them somewhat up. However, they have to be careful, as Terran upon scouting that can simply delay the 3rd rax and go triple CC with very little the Protoss can do about it, especially since good Marine placement will deny any scouting of the triple CC until Hallucination or Robo tech becomes available. The easiest response to a CC-first to get advantage is immediate reactive proxy Stargate off of a 9-scout, although doing it after 13-scout is possible. You don't have to do the all-in version, just proxy the Stargate, use Oracles to force lots of Turrets and delayed gas, take your Nexus and race for 1 Forge Colossus with only 1-2 Gateway units and the MSC for defense. There's no way for a Terran to move out safely versus proxy Oracles before you have Photon Overcharge ready, and once they've committed to Turret/Marine defense, their Factory/Starport tech should be delayed enough that you can go into a very normal Colossi-focused defense for a third base and then progress to a standard mid to late-game scenario. If you want to see why 1-gate FE is generally less optimal versus CC-first, just look at any of the games Taeja played at WCS S2 Finals where he went CC-first. None of the Protoss players were able to crack his setup and Taeja always was able to maintain an economy lead even when midgame harass came into play. Things CC-first is good against (assuming correct scouting): - Gateway allins (lots of minerals for Bunkers/Marines) - Blink allins (again, lots of minerals, easy incorporation of Marauders and early MULEs for comeback possibility) - DTs (earlier scans and ability to drop lots of Turrets) - standard 1-gate FE (Protoss is behind economically with no strong pressure plays immediately available) Things CC-first is weak against (assuming correct scouting): - proxy Oracle/Voidray allins (much heavier investment in Turrets and positioning required, very tough to judge what is the correct angle to place everything and critical to pull lots of SCVs at very exact timings) - proxy Immortal busts (difficult to scout, must have a favourable Bunker setup at the natural far in advance) | ||
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