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On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote:
Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works .
it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks .
and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
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Builds like these doesnt really work at low levels when the players dont really understand what they should be doing, nor do lower levels have any "meta-game" to speak of
All builds at a high enough level follows a highly specific timing with a highly specific amount of units. This creates a flow for the player, allowing the player to play at a certain pace.
Builds like these are designed to interrupt the flow and pacing of the opponents build, dealing damage not just in numbers, but in the timing as well.
For the metagame in TvP at a high level, most, if not all terran builds are designed to deal heavy damage to the protoss continuously throughout the game and kill the protoss before the 15 minute mark because nobody wants to deal with a full strength late game protoss triple aoe army with good control. Builds like these allows the protoss to get there by preventing the terran from harrassing or pressuring at a full strength, at the correct timing.
1 rax FE builds that have a turret kept in mind will be placed at the natural ~6:30 mark, even then pros will prevent the turret from finishing off so they can cancel it, allowing for more money for a faster transition / heavier army at their timing. This is mainly because money that doesnt contribute directly into the army ultimately means a much weaker army, meaning the chances of dealing significant pressure at their build timing will be a lot less stronger.
A double DT DROP at 7:22 is HIGHLY disrupting for a terran player playing standard - first, scans are non existance unless the terran has been saving up scans (highly unusual, as mules are essential at building the correct force at the correct time). Second, there will be NO random turret placing for the terran inside the main because its highly disrupting to their builds, and how many turrets should the terran place to prevent a fricken dropship warpin? This is why terrans are opting for widowmines at the early stage - much stronger and covers a better area for a cheaper price since its mobile. It can also be used aggressively too. DT drops completely bypasses that, forcing the terran to drop down turrets/scans, causing indirect damage. Any kill from the DTs are extra, and might just flat out kill the terran if he doesnt happen to have sufficient energy for scanning.
This is the main reason why high level rushes that have a very specific idea behind it does NOT work at lower levels. Rushes like these are designed to counter some aspect of the meta-game it was designed for. Such meta-game simply doesnt exist at lower levels of play. Its this reason why people would suggest new players to go for a macro opener rather than learning a detailed rush - its simply not designed for that level of play, and having a bigger + better army at lower levels will win the game easily.
DT drops are less strong against protoss (although just as deadly) because of the static defense that can hit ground, and a cheap + mobile detector that can follow the army around.
DT drops are not as strong against zerg also for similar reasons.
For terran - turrets need to placed absolutely fucking everywhere if they want to defend against DTs, and they are highly suspectible to sniping. Dts when split cannot be caught with scans alone, and asking a terran player to add ravens into his build is really ridiculous. It doesnt even sound good on paper - 200 gas for a unit that simply observes and is easily sniped? Plus you need a fucking techlab on the starport? Its probably cheaper to build extra OCs for scanning at this point.
Yeah sure late game it probably works. Just for the sake of sniping DTs? What, make a raven banshee strike force?
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Love it. Really good work.
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Well I guess I have to start building turrets every game again...
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Teoita, always delivering the cheese builds ! Great job guys, will probably be trying this out on ladder 
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Time to not play ladder for a few weeks...
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Why isn't there a place where we can find those awesome guides made by TLStrategy in the forum? After a few weeks, they disappear under a ton of new, less interesting posts. Isn't it possible to make them sticky or have a place where they are easily accessible on TL?
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On April 07 2013 18:06 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote:
Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans? did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works . it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks . and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
A Scan does not COST minerals, how many people get that wrong is disgusting.
A scan is worth it to kill an Observer, you think you break even when losing a DT? Dark Shrine may be cheap but if you don't do any damage you are way way behind.
Also, at least on EU, getting a fast Reaper seems to be standard right now, that makes this BO terrible, late Stalker and early tech combined mean that Terran will know exactly what is up, making 2 or 3 Missile Turrets means you do nothing..
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Italy12248 Posts
On April 07 2013 19:27 Authopsy wrote:
Why isn't there a place where we can find those awesome guides made by TLStrategy in the forum? After a few weeks, they disappear under a ton of new, less interesting posts. Isn't it possible to make them sticky or have a place where they are easily accessible on TL?
Well this is just a game analysis rather than a full on guide. I have links to every article i've written in my profile, and many other blues too. That's a good point though i guess it'd be nice to have all the "strat talk" type stuff somewhere. I'll add them to recommened threads.
Glon's and Blade's guides are both in the recommended thread section.
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hate this !
ps: im terran
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This is a pretty cool opening.
I wonder though why it rushes for the MSC and not just for a stalker. Stalker is better for anti-scouting and let's you get the expo slightly earlier plus most importantly lets you deal with reaper harass better. MsC earlier get's you the critical 100 energy faster but I don't think that's so crucial. For defending pressure I still feel warpgate completing is more useful then a rushed MsC. Basically I do this sort of build with fast warpgate and stalker and a slightly delayed MsC.
I don't like rushing the MsC unless it has a very specific purpose or timing because it's also built instead of probes delaying your income. I especially don't like getting it before i have my 22 probes in my main.
edit: nevertheless I like greedy tech plays after FE in TvP. I think it will be key to the new hots TvP, abusing the fact the warpgate and MsC keep you safe from virtually any pressure anyway without actually having to build much units. Just having 2 warpgates and an MsC with energy is pretty much enough to be safe from any pressure between 6 and 8 minutes so you can invest your money into blisteringly fast tech instead of units.
Quick blink (on Ohana) or stargate after FE are nice plays too. Robo to me feels pretty pointless sometimes in hots TvP, I don't like colossi anyway as they hardly help you get a third up being so slow and you can get detection which you hardly need anyway from oracles too. Robo is often only used for obs/warp prism for me which feels such a waste as it doesn't pressure nearly as much as going for something else.
Observers to stop widow mines are nice but i'm wondering if it isn't just better to get a forge and make a cannon whenever they get a burrowed mine. Observer doesn't stop the first shot anyway and a cannon effectively kills the widow mine too because you force them to unburrow or die to the cannon.
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What a write-up! GZ
I'm terran and I approve gertting an ebay at 6:00 :D
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On April 07 2013 19:28 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 18:06 xsnac wrote:On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote:
Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans? did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works . it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks . and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even . A Scan does not COST minerals, how many people get that wrong is disgusting. A scan is worth it to kill an Observer, you think you break even when losing a DT? Dark Shrine may be cheap but if you don't do any damage you are way way behind. Also, at least on EU, getting a fast Reaper seems to be standard right now, that makes this BO terrible, late Stalker and early tech combined mean that Terran will know exactly what is up, making 2 or 3 Missile Turrets means you do nothing..
you can get stalker first to deny scouting and then go for this build .
and please you are so wrong saying scan does not cost minerals . you know how much terran income drop if he scans and not use energy from orbital for mule ?
and yes vs reaper this exact build order sucks since you have no stalker and he sees ms core , twilight and robo .
" making 2-3 missile turrets " this is investment + if is only turrets you can drop and kill turrets and load back and run since if he push he has no army in base .
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Well this build was doing my friend for almost 1 month. He had 98% PvT on ladder (grandmaster).
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such a sick guide, heading to another lvl
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What do you do vs a walled off Terran? I've had two games today where he just proxy'd a factory and waltzed in with 2-3 widow mines :S
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Italy12248 Posts
This isn't meant to be a guide; it was just analysis of one interesting game which showed how openings have changed with hots.
That said, i imagine any kind fast aggression (faster than a standard widow mine drop) or cheese from terran would kill you or do tons of damage. I suppose you can try and get some units out before going for the DT tech, but i don't know anything more specific.
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I guess, we cant play this strategy fpr now, because everybody will prepare for it, or?
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It seems like something that could be easily scouted and shut down.
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On April 07 2013 18:06 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote:
Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans? did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works . it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks . and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
IMO it is never a good deal to trade gas (DTs) for minerals (Mules).
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EPT
