Strategy Spotlight: TAILS' 7:22 Dark Templar Drop with FE
From: TAiLS vs. Ryung, 2013 GSTL Season One - Team MVP vs. Axiom-Acer - VOD (pay only)
Introduction: PvT in HotS and other relevant things
PvT in HotS
The release of Heart of the Swarm changed every Starcraft II match-up and PvT is no different. The unit compositions and overall feel of games have remained similar, with Terrans usually going for bio and focusing on harassment while the Protoss defends as he techs to a fearsome colossi/templar army. However, the specific builds and flow of the match-up have changed entirely.
Terran drops are more powerful thanks to the medivac afterburners and most Protoss players are having having a hard time dealing with them. It's not just direct drop defense that's troublesome—securing a third base at an appropriate time to match the Terran economy is difficult as well, for fear of spreading oneself too thin against drops. The older Protoss standard, passive macro build of 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo into a tech of choice (forge/twilight, forge/colossus, or double forge) now struggles with Terran's stronger aggression. Thus, many Protoss players are eschewing 'standard' play, instead focusing on entering the mid-game in an advantageous position through early aggression (MC's stargate play comes to mind), or on preventing drops through harassment and map control.
The TAiLS Factor
Before we can begin to explain this strategy, we first have to account for TAiLS factor. Save for perhaps GuMiho and YongHwa, TAiLS is perhaps one of the biggest GSTL specialists there is. After all, TAiLS is not a GSL mainstay by any means. But what he lacks for in GSL results, he more than makes up for in his GSTL accomplishments. In the last season of GSTL, TAiLS ended the season with a 6 - 2 record, the fourth best in the entire league.
Almost more impressively, TAiLS did this almost exclusively with sniping builds. TAiLS is known as a genius in creating builds tailored to abuse his opponents' more predictable play patterns, or undiscovered quirks on a newly introduced map. When TAiLS was chosen as the second player for MVP against Axiom-Acer last week, the viewers and the casters knew we could look forward to a unique new build. After all, TAiLS' talent for constructing builds would certainly shine even more during the dawn of a new expansion. But before TAiLS could prepare an appropriate build, he would have to learn a bit about how Terrans were opening in HotS.
Terran Openings in HotS
For Terran, 15CC/1rax FE followed by 3 barracks into medivacs, by far the most common openings in WoL, still exist and remains a powerful builds, especially with the new turbo-vacs. However, those builds seem to be eclipsed in these early days of HotS by a fast CC build with a widow mine drop behind it. The widow mines incorporated into this build allow both for a better defense, and even a better early offense in combination with drops. This kind of widow mine drop isn't the fastest possible, but it can catch players off-guard, forces Protoss to play with such a possibility in mind, and more importantly gives the Terran plenty of scouting information.
This opening still transitions into 3 rax plus a reactored starport, but a key trade-off is that this build can't hit a stim-upgraded infantry drop timing as fast as the older 1rax FE because of the delayed natural expansion, smaller marine count, and later upgrades. Instead of the common 10 minute timing we would see with the old, direct-to-3 rax medivac build, stim+medivac drops will usually hit around 11:30 with the widow mine expand build. TAiLS' build was tailored specifically to counteract this new modern standard Terran opening, focusing on the HotS changes and new units such as the mothership core and cheaper dark shrine.
TAiLS' answer
While widow mines and booster medivacs seem to be two enormous upgrades to the Terran arsenal, Protoss also got some notable, albeit less glamorous and less talked about improvements. The two important ones here are:
The Mothership Core: With the photon overcharge ability, a mothership core provides a much needed anchor to Protoss defense. Though it's far from one-stop solution against multi-pronged drops, it can almost completely shut down early frontal aggression by itself.
A cheaper Dark Shrine: In HotS, the cost of the dark shrine was reduced from 100/250 to 150/150. A much cheaper dark shrine allows dark templar builds, especially dark templar-rush openings to be much more viable.
Taking these two points into account, TAiLS carefully constructed a HotS build that would surgically take Ryung apart, bit by bit.
The Build
As far as we can deduce, this is the exact build TAiLS used, give or take a few chronoboosts that appeared off screen. Constant probe production is assumed, except where specifically stated. There is no probe scouting with this build.
9/10 Pylon
Chronoboost Nexus x2
13/18 Gateway
15/18 Assimilator x2 (Cut probes briefly if necessary)
16/18 Pylon
Chronoboost Nexus (3)
Put 2 probes on each assimilators once they complete.
Chronoboost Nexus (4)
18/18 Cybernetics Core
20/26 Zealot*
22/26 Cancel Zealot right before completion.
21/26 Mothership Core and Warpgate research as soon as Cybernetics Core completes.
Chronoboost Nexus (5)
23/26 Nexus at natural.
Add 1 probe to each assimilator to bring them to full mining.
25/26 Robotics
Cut Probes
25/26 Twilight Council
25/26 Pylon
Resume Probes
26/34 Stalker
30/34 Warp Prism
Chronoboost Robotics Facility (6)
32/34 Dark Shrine
Start double probe production once second Nexus completes.
Chronoboost use seems to be flexible from this point/not enough information from VOD.
36/44 Gateway
36/44 Observer
38/44 Pylon
41/44 Stalker
45/52 Double gas at natural
47/52 Dark Templar x2 (7:22)
As you see fit from here on out, depending on what kind of damage you deal and what kind of scouting information you gain. TAiLS went up to 6 gateways while getting double forge, colossus tech and charge.
*The purpose of the fake zealot is to show opponent that you are building from your gateway, and dissuade him from using an Engineering Bay to block your natural expand.
Going over the build, there should be something that immediately jumps out at you: TAiLS barely makes units. The key point to take from this build is TAiLS' cut units very hard, relying on a combination of his mothership core, his knowledge of the metagame, and mind-games to defend against all potential early game aggression. His first stalker starts at 5:20, almost two minutes after the normal time. In total, TAiLS makes only two gateway units before his first warp-in of dark templars. The final result is that TAiLS had a DT drop in Ryung's base at around 7:20, only about 10 seconds slower than a normal one-base DT build would have had in WoL.
TAiLS declined to scout at all, playing totally blind for the early minutes of the game. He was banking on Ryung going for the default build that was being used in over 50% of TvP games lately, and his guess proved to be right on the money. Ryung went for the widow mine drop - expand build as expected, allowing TAiLS execute his plan exactly the way he wanted.
TAiLS' plan to deal with the widow mine drop was clear: don't let it happen at all. The DT drop hit at a timing when the Terran player must have his army at home to defend or take severe damage from the Dark Templars. If Ryung had gone for the widow mine drop anyway, the fast observer, pair of stalkers, and mothership core would have been enough to defend the push with acceptable losses while his DTs wreaked havoc. TAiLS would also be totally fine with his opponent leaving his army behind to defend. It would pin the Terran player inside his base, while giving himself the breathing room to transition into a macro game.
Ryung had indeed scouted the drop with a small marine poke earlier on, just as TAiLS' warp prism was flying past his natural. His reaction was to go for textbook, solid play, as he backing out and getting detection up instead of being overaggressive against a seemingly exposed opponent. However, Ryung still didn't have quite enough advance notice to have scans banked up or turrets completed in time for the DT drop, and the DT's dealt decent damage and bought enough time to put TAiLS in a game winning position, even if that damage was just 5 SCV kills.
TAiLS' warp prism is scouted by Ryung's marine poke
The midgame: TAiLS' followup
7:55 Forge x2
8:40 Gateway x4
9:10 Robotics Support Bay
9:40 Zealot Charge research
11:10 First Colossus finishes
11:50 Charge research finishes
TAiLS' followup to the DT drop took advantage of his existing tech and map control very well. He knew that Ryung was contained because of his dark templars. In addition, any light aggression could be held off easily with a photon overcharge. Thus, TAiLS was still able to cut units in order to reach full two base saturation very quickly, and utilize his very solid economy to invest heavily in both tech and production. Another example of his solid transition is that instead of rushing directly to colossi after his DT drop, TAiLS padded his late game advantage even further by squeezing in double forges, delaying his colossi for as long as possible. In fact, both his first colossi and his charge upgrade finish around the 11:30 mark, the standard timing for a stimmed marine-maruader push/drop with Ryung's build.
Indeed, the game at the 9:30 mark looked quite favorable for TAiLS: he had double forge, 6 gates and colossus tech coming up, while Ryung was stuck with a handful of marines that had a long time to wait for stimpak, combat shields or +1 attack to complete. Ryung did have medivacs, but they had other use than for scouting, or an extremely speculative drop with no-upgrade marines. More importantly, TAiLS had 47 probes to the 34 SCVs and 2 CCs of Ryung.
TAiLS' economy is much better as Ryung is forced to play defensively
Ryung used his medivacs to scout and bait out some MSC energy. He was successful at that goal, and was able to scout the two forges. Realizing how far behind he would be if he played a macro game, Ryung decided he needed to try to hit a two-base timing to kill TAiLS before his tech and upgrades paid off. Instead of building an extra CC, he upped his barracks count to 5 and pumped pure units from all of his production facilities, sacrificing upgrades and economy to get a powerful army as soon as possible.
Meanwhile TAiLS' midgame build was also differing from what used to be standard in WoL. Older colossus builds used to get 3 colossi with range as well as blink before switching back into high templar tech, or a single colossus with no range with very fast templar tech. The first option gave the Protoss quite a strong short term army, but it opened up a strong timing for Terran to attack with 2/2 infantry and a solid Viking count, before the switch into Templar tech was ready. On the other hand, the second option was very deceptive, strong defensively, and had templar tech fast enough to be considered more of a templar build than a colossus build.
TAiLS decided to do what many Protoss players have been doing lately, going for something of an in-between of those two extremes. He skipped blink and the third colossus (while still getting colossus range) in favor of zealot charge and a faster templar archives while still on 2 bases. A very small group of stalkers and the mothership core's purify was used to defend the colossi from vikings. This plan offered the best of both worlds: TAiLS had access to the brute-force strength of ranged colossi and was able to force viking production, but was safe from viking-heavy kill-timings and had a very well developed tech tree.
Anti Drop Defense
Throughout the midgame, TAiLS also remained on top of his scouting. Utilizing hallucinated phoenixes, he spotted no third CC, while noticing that bio units were being active on the map. He was thus able to correctly deduce that Ryung was gearing up for heavy aggression. The hallucinations also allowed him to make just two observers as opposed to the more standard three to four, allowing him to invest more heavily in army and tech.
It's important to notice how TAiLS split his army once he knew Ryung could start dropping stimmed infantry. Previously, a group of 6 stalkers in position was enough to defend most drops, as they would be able to two-shot a medivac flying in. TAiLS, on the other hand, chose to keep two stalkers, a sentry for guardian shield and 5 zealots as his main-base defense force, a substantially bigger force. Only with this bigger force and his nexus cannon was he able to repel Ryung's double drop easily—a small group of stalkers would have been crushed.
All in all, this phase of the game is more unforgiving for Protoss compared to WoL, as expensive units such as colossi, sentries and high templar will have fewer support units around them. TAiLS however showed how solid play can be enough to overcome the highly mobile Terran force.
TAiLS' tech and upgrades pay off as Ryung is unable to do any damage
The end of the game: Ryung's all-in fails
After this first round of aggression failed to do any sort of damage, Ryung was in an unwinnable position. His opponent had been on a full two base economy for longer and had 2/2 upgrades (with 3/3 on the way) versus 1/1 with no armory even started. Additionally, the Protoss had completed both charge and a templar archives while Ryung desperately tried to up his viking count to hit his all-in timing.
Realizing his dire situation, Ryung pulled every SCV at his natural in a desperate, final attempt to take the game. However, but the combination of heavily upgraded zealots, colossus fire, and Ryung's own low medivac count proved too much to overcome. With most of his SCVs dead, Ryung did not have a single hope of beating a fully upgraded Protoss army with a wholly developed tech tree, and he GG'd shortly after yet another lost engagement.
Ryung GG's out after his final attack fails.
Parting Thoughts
One-hit Wonder or Lasting Hit?
Things worked out very well for TAiLS against Ryung, with his opponent going for the exact strategy he wished to face. However, you have to wonder how this strategy would have fared if Ryung had tried something different. In fact, in the very next game of the series, TAiLS went for the same build against another Terran in AX.Heart, only to be smashed by his proxy-factory widow mine rush (albeit, his defensive execution was not TheBest). Heart's build showed how weak TAiLS' build could be against cheesy Terran openers, and one can imagine that a proxy 11/11 rax would be an instant GG.
At the same time, you have to keep in mind that TAiLS did, in fact, try to use his build again, despite having revealed it just one game before. While it could have been part of a "he couldn't possibly do it again" mind-game gambit, you could also think that TAiLS felt confident enough in his build to use it against Terran's other, non-cheese openers. A big thing to consider is that the DT drop is very likely to give you good scouting information, and allow you to adjust accordingly. Against Ryung, TAiLS knew that the stim-medivac timing would be late, and that allowed him to squeeze in double-forge before colossus tech. TAiLS must have faced a variety of Terran openers in practice, and would know how to adjust his tech follow-ups accordingly.
Already in WoL, we've seen FE openers with DT drops/observer-pylon warp-ins used successfully by a variety of Protoss players. TAiLS' optimized, corner-cutting version could very well be the next step in its evolution. On the other hand, it could also just be a one-off, used successfully for a vital GSTL win and then discarded. Only time will tell which one it is. Happy experimenting!
On April 07 2013 06:43 opterown wrote: i personally wasn't too impressed, it looks like a one-hit wonder to me that ryung actually botched the defense of anyway haha. nice writeup though!
At the least it's a hilarious gimmick build, it's also done well for me on ladder but I'm not even in masters so it probably doesn't count.
little bit skeptical considering ryung has a 45% winrate so i would say it is a one hit wonder. people were saying the same thing about sage's dt drop in WoL and he fell off the grid shortly after.
Personally, I just want to give Teoita and everyone else involved in writing this guide an icy cold stare -.- There is nothing in the game that I hate more than DT's lol.
Yeeeeess. I've been waiting for this ever since it was hinted at in the HotS Protoss help me thread! Small nitpick, it says that you spend your 6th chrono on your Robo bay, when it should be robo facility. Other than that, it all looks amazing.
One thing I'm curious about, is how would this fare against a reaper expand? I suppose your MsC gets out soon enough to scare the reaper away before it does too much damage? Have those of you doing this build had to change it to fit ladder play a little better?
On April 07 2013 08:35 Yokwe wrote: Builds like these are why I hate playing Starcraft 2.
You hate playing starcraft because people make builds that react to the metagame? o_O.
You know this was a WoL build too right? It was good then, it's even better now. I don't see how this is a reaction to the metagame because it works vs standard 1rax FE into 3rax or 1rax widow mine expos.
TAiLS' build was tailored specifically to counteract this new modern standard Terran opening, focusing on the HotS changes and new units such as the mothership core and cheaper dark shrine.
The author is wrong about this. Alicia and TaiLs, and other protoss players already did a similar build in WoL vs completely standard 1rax expo into 3rax with great success too.
What do you normally do against a terran who opens reapers? The mscore itself can't prevent the reaper from scouting your base assuming the terran is at all careful- you can throw down the robo in plain sight of the reaper but not the twilight council since it'll be a dead give-away. (At high masters if its any help)
On April 07 2013 08:35 Yokwe wrote: Builds like these are why I hate playing Starcraft 2.
You hate playing starcraft because people make builds that react to the metagame? o_O.
You know this was a WoL build too right? It was good then, it's even better now. I don't see how this is a reaction to the metagame because it works vs standard 1rax FE into 3rax or 1rax widow mine expos.
TAiLS' build was tailored specifically to counteract this new modern standard Terran opening, focusing on the HotS changes and new units such as the mothership core and cheaper dark shrine.
The author is wrong about this. Alicia and TaiLs, and other protoss players already did a similar build in WoL vs completely standard 1rax expo into 3rax with great success too.
No, there were DT drops builds after FE in WoL, but none of them were nearly as effective as this one, hitting over a full minute later. HotS changes and the metagame definitely made this build possible.
On April 07 2013 06:43 opterown wrote: i personally wasn't too impressed, it looks like a one-hit wonder to me that ryung actually botched the defense of anyway haha. nice writeup though!
At the least it's a hilarious gimmick build, it's also done well for me on ladder but I'm not even in masters so it probably doesn't count.
It's only gimmicky if you don't have the game knowledge to use it properly D:
Way too gimmicky in my opinion. The lack of probe scout and 0 units makes it for a ridiculously coin flip-y build. With some alterations it could become standard, but as is it's just a "try to take a free win if my opponent isn't ready for this" build that's good in a box, much the same way cheese is
On April 07 2013 09:19 Wonderstruck wrote: What do you normally do against a terran who opens reapers? The mscore itself can't prevent the reaper from scouting your base assuming the terran is at all careful- you can throw down the robo in plain sight of the reaper but not the twilight council since it'll be a dead give-away. (At high masters if its any help)
reaper typically comes before your tech buildings are down, so you can change tack before you are committed to both Robo and Citadel tech (it's reasonably close to a MSC/sentry expand with robo fast if you don't make the citadel). No idea how it would play out at pro level ^_^
thanks for another good protoss article. please continue to make them. theyre very helpful, especially in masters league where i could figure it out myself, but would rather learn it by reading this writeup with all the nice little details and gimmicks that would take me 10 games to figure out completely
On April 07 2013 13:00 Havik_ wrote: And now Terrans will hard counter this and it will become near useless.
and when you see this, you laugh at how they are delaying another aspect of their push, and keep that threat alive so terrans still need to account for it.
A couple weeks ago, Artosis kept talking about how good this build was on his stream, and about how, when using this build, he hadn't lost against a Terran yet (at the time). He said it takes advantage of Terrans playing extremely greedily, since it's still quite early in the game's release. It really is a good build to have in one's repertoire.
This build is really good if you play against someone you know will not allin you early game, and that means it will not be good for laddering in lower leagues.
On April 07 2013 09:19 Wonderstruck wrote: What do you normally do against a terran who opens reapers? The mscore itself can't prevent the reaper from scouting your base assuming the terran is at all careful- you can throw down the robo in plain sight of the reaper but not the twilight council since it'll be a dead give-away. (At high masters if its any help)
reaper typically comes before your tech buildings are down, so you can change tack before you are committed to both Robo and Citadel tech (it's reasonably close to a MSC/sentry expand with robo fast if you don't make the citadel). No idea how it would play out at pro level ^_^
This is the one thing the article didn't touch on I wish it did. The map is a huge part of why you can do the build, because reapers are far less likely on a map that is so long and has all its jumpable cliffs right at the ramp. Akilon would be okay too, but I wouldn't try it on Planet S.
I did the BO more or less perfect (popped dts at 7:22.. just gotta adjust the prism timing a lil) and it works extremely well vs terran a long as there is no early agression. Enjoy the build you protosses this one is not to be underestimated I personally feel like it adds an essential opener to our arsenal.
Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
On April 07 2013 06:48 Doodsmack wrote: Why are TL's strategy pieces never for terran lol.
gosubuilds.com has some absolutely fantastic write ups for Terran builds. They don't have all the pretty pictures, but they are still top notch with breakdowns on scouting and transitions with links to vods/replays. I highly recommend it.
I have been using this build for almost 20 months now, through Wings of Liberty (where it hits at 8 minutes), to Heart of the Swarm.
Tails build is different to mine in that he expands before placing the robo tech aand the twilight council.
also, yes, his macro is far superior to mine, however so is ryung's to my opponents, so i assume the arguments stand.
The weakness of this build is that it will just str8 up die to any form of widow mine pressure since the observer is so late. Also, any form of reaper pressure leaves you a bit exposed. as far as I know these are the 2 common TvP openings atm.
Finally, going for both double forge, AND collosus, AND charge is almost impossible. if you're follow up is going to be collosus, i'd say a single forge with charge started asap.
in fact, I start as I warp in DT's into the terran's main.
Finally, the great thing about this DT timing, is, even if they have a turret in the main (which they do a lot in WoL), you can snipe the techlab building stim.
if the DT's do no damage, good luck
Gtg, will edit more later.
This build is extremely risky tho, and a fringe build. Wouldn't recommend it for mass ladder. since if DT's fail, its really hard to recover past the ten minute timing push, especially with speed medivacs.
On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote: Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
You need to split your DTs cost effectively. If they're using 1 scan to kill 1 DT each time, then you're getting your money's worth. You don't want them to clear all your DTs with one scan.
I just tried this build on ladder at masters level and did well with it. He backed out of any early aggression, so I kept him contained, and killed a decent number of SCVs while forcing turrets and scans. This is after, may I note, that he scanned my dark shrine and robo well ahead of time to prepare.
lol like freaking obvious bo. he berely makes units lol. ofc cause u got PO. I feel pity for everyone who didnt realise that at the very first day of Hots. been using DT with 0 unit count before them since 03/13. Cmon.
On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote: Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
If he hasn't started any Turrets or a Raven (very unsual but some people are smart enough to do it) you can always keep warping them in until he runs out of scans. A lot of Terrans will freak out once your DT's get in to the mineral line in the main so they will try to rely on scans which is really bad for them. And if they rely on Turrets you can always try to snipe an add on or something similar. Remember also that once the harass is dealt with you kind of want to be able to delay his attacks by warping in 1-2 DT's once he moves out. I like to try to save one of the warped in ones and keep him outside his natural.
On April 07 2013 09:19 Wonderstruck wrote: What do you normally do against a terran who opens reapers? The mscore itself can't prevent the reaper from scouting your base assuming the terran is at all careful- you can throw down the robo in plain sight of the reaper but not the twilight council since it'll be a dead give-away. (At high masters if its any help)
reaper typically comes before your tech buildings are down, so you can change tack before you are committed to both Robo and Citadel tech (it's reasonably close to a MSC/sentry expand with robo fast if you don't make the citadel). No idea how it would play out at pro level ^_^
This is the one thing the article didn't touch on I wish it did. The map is a huge part of why you can do the build, because reapers are far less likely on a map that is so long and has all its jumpable cliffs right at the ramp. Akilon would be okay too, but I wouldn't try it on Planet S.
I wrote some map analysis but monk didn't like it T_T
On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote: Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works .
it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks .
and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
Builds like these doesnt really work at low levels when the players dont really understand what they should be doing, nor do lower levels have any "meta-game" to speak of
All builds at a high enough level follows a highly specific timing with a highly specific amount of units. This creates a flow for the player, allowing the player to play at a certain pace.
Builds like these are designed to interrupt the flow and pacing of the opponents build, dealing damage not just in numbers, but in the timing as well.
For the metagame in TvP at a high level, most, if not all terran builds are designed to deal heavy damage to the protoss continuously throughout the game and kill the protoss before the 15 minute mark because nobody wants to deal with a full strength late game protoss triple aoe army with good control. Builds like these allows the protoss to get there by preventing the terran from harrassing or pressuring at a full strength, at the correct timing.
1 rax FE builds that have a turret kept in mind will be placed at the natural ~6:30 mark, even then pros will prevent the turret from finishing off so they can cancel it, allowing for more money for a faster transition / heavier army at their timing. This is mainly because money that doesnt contribute directly into the army ultimately means a much weaker army, meaning the chances of dealing significant pressure at their build timing will be a lot less stronger.
A double DT DROP at 7:22 is HIGHLY disrupting for a terran player playing standard - first, scans are non existance unless the terran has been saving up scans (highly unusual, as mules are essential at building the correct force at the correct time). Second, there will be NO random turret placing for the terran inside the main because its highly disrupting to their builds, and how many turrets should the terran place to prevent a fricken dropship warpin? This is why terrans are opting for widowmines at the early stage - much stronger and covers a better area for a cheaper price since its mobile. It can also be used aggressively too. DT drops completely bypasses that, forcing the terran to drop down turrets/scans, causing indirect damage. Any kill from the DTs are extra, and might just flat out kill the terran if he doesnt happen to have sufficient energy for scanning.
This is the main reason why high level rushes that have a very specific idea behind it does NOT work at lower levels. Rushes like these are designed to counter some aspect of the meta-game it was designed for. Such meta-game simply doesnt exist at lower levels of play. Its this reason why people would suggest new players to go for a macro opener rather than learning a detailed rush - its simply not designed for that level of play, and having a bigger + better army at lower levels will win the game easily.
DT drops are less strong against protoss (although just as deadly) because of the static defense that can hit ground, and a cheap + mobile detector that can follow the army around.
DT drops are not as strong against zerg also for similar reasons.
For terran - turrets need to placed absolutely fucking everywhere if they want to defend against DTs, and they are highly suspectible to sniping. Dts when split cannot be caught with scans alone, and asking a terran player to add ravens into his build is really ridiculous. It doesnt even sound good on paper - 200 gas for a unit that simply observes and is easily sniped? Plus you need a fucking techlab on the starport? Its probably cheaper to build extra OCs for scanning at this point.
Yeah sure late game it probably works. Just for the sake of sniping DTs? What, make a raven banshee strike force?
Why isn't there a place where we can find those awesome guides made by TLStrategy in the forum? After a few weeks, they disappear under a ton of new, less interesting posts. Isn't it possible to make them sticky or have a place where they are easily accessible on TL?
On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote: Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works .
it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks .
and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
A Scan does not COST minerals, how many people get that wrong is disgusting. A scan is worth it to kill an Observer, you think you break even when losing a DT? Dark Shrine may be cheap but if you don't do any damage you are way way behind.
Also, at least on EU, getting a fast Reaper seems to be standard right now, that makes this BO terrible, late Stalker and early tech combined mean that Terran will know exactly what is up, making 2 or 3 Missile Turrets means you do nothing..
On April 07 2013 19:27 Authopsy wrote: Why isn't there a place where we can find those awesome guides made by TLStrategy in the forum? After a few weeks, they disappear under a ton of new, less interesting posts. Isn't it possible to make them sticky or have a place where they are easily accessible on TL?
Well this is just a game analysis rather than a full on guide. I have links to every article i've written in my profile, and many other blues too. That's a good point though i guess it'd be nice to have all the "strat talk" type stuff somewhere. I'll add them to recommened threads.
Glon's and Blade's guides are both in the recommended thread section.
This is a pretty cool opening. I wonder though why it rushes for the MSC and not just for a stalker. Stalker is better for anti-scouting and let's you get the expo slightly earlier plus most importantly lets you deal with reaper harass better. MsC earlier get's you the critical 100 energy faster but I don't think that's so crucial. For defending pressure I still feel warpgate completing is more useful then a rushed MsC. Basically I do this sort of build with fast warpgate and stalker and a slightly delayed MsC. I don't like rushing the MsC unless it has a very specific purpose or timing because it's also built instead of probes delaying your income. I especially don't like getting it before i have my 22 probes in my main.
edit: nevertheless I like greedy tech plays after FE in TvP. I think it will be key to the new hots TvP, abusing the fact the warpgate and MsC keep you safe from virtually any pressure anyway without actually having to build much units. Just having 2 warpgates and an MsC with energy is pretty much enough to be safe from any pressure between 6 and 8 minutes so you can invest your money into blisteringly fast tech instead of units. Quick blink (on Ohana) or stargate after FE are nice plays too. Robo to me feels pretty pointless sometimes in hots TvP, I don't like colossi anyway as they hardly help you get a third up being so slow and you can get detection which you hardly need anyway from oracles too. Robo is often only used for obs/warp prism for me which feels such a waste as it doesn't pressure nearly as much as going for something else.
Observers to stop widow mines are nice but i'm wondering if it isn't just better to get a forge and make a cannon whenever they get a burrowed mine. Observer doesn't stop the first shot anyway and a cannon effectively kills the widow mine too because you force them to unburrow or die to the cannon.
On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote: Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works .
it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks .
and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
A Scan does not COST minerals, how many people get that wrong is disgusting. A scan is worth it to kill an Observer, you think you break even when losing a DT? Dark Shrine may be cheap but if you don't do any damage you are way way behind.
Also, at least on EU, getting a fast Reaper seems to be standard right now, that makes this BO terrible, late Stalker and early tech combined mean that Terran will know exactly what is up, making 2 or 3 Missile Turrets means you do nothing..
you can get stalker first to deny scouting and then go for this build .
and please you are so wrong saying scan does not cost minerals . you know how much terran income drop if he scans and not use energy from orbital for mule ? and yes vs reaper this exact build order sucks since you have no stalker and he sees ms core , twilight and robo . " making 2-3 missile turrets " this is investment + if is only turrets you can drop and kill turrets and load back and run since if he push he has no army in base .
This isn't meant to be a guide; it was just analysis of one interesting game which showed how openings have changed with hots.
That said, i imagine any kind fast aggression (faster than a standard widow mine drop) or cheese from terran would kill you or do tons of damage. I suppose you can try and get some units out before going for the DT tech, but i don't know anything more specific.
On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote: Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works .
it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks .
and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
IMO it is never a good deal to trade gas (DTs) for minerals (Mules).
On April 07 2013 15:50 Gauranga wrote: Somebody please explain to me why DT's against Terran is viable. Because whenever I attack with mine they just get scanned and destroyed on the spot (mind you I am in a low league). Is it because higher level Terrans spend all their Orbital energy on mules, therefore having nothing left for scans?
did you read the op ? there is specified a couple of reasons why it works .
it works cuz you contain terran and invest in tech/upgrades without any risks .
and for a low level understanding : even if he does have scans , he will be scarry to leave his base + 1 scan costs 300 minerals . so even if he scans and you killed nothing , you still break even .
A Scan does not COST minerals, how many people get that wrong is disgusting. A scan is worth it to kill an Observer, you think you break even when losing a DT? Dark Shrine may be cheap but if you don't do any damage you are way way behind.
Also, at least on EU, getting a fast Reaper seems to be standard right now, that makes this BO terrible, late Stalker and early tech combined mean that Terran will know exactly what is up, making 2 or 3 Missile Turrets means you do nothing..
On April 07 2013 19:27 Authopsy wrote: Why isn't there a place where we can find those awesome guides made by TLStrategy in the forum? After a few weeks, they disappear under a ton of new, less interesting posts. Isn't it possible to make them sticky or have a place where they are easily accessible on TL?
Well this is just a game analysis rather than a full on guide. I have links to every article i've written in my profile, and many other blues too. That's a good point though i guess it'd be nice to have all the "strat talk" type stuff somewhere. I'll add them to recommened threads.
Glon's and Blade's guides are both in the recommended thread section.
Also, I'm workin' on that. More to come whenever it is I finish.
On April 07 2013 09:19 Wonderstruck wrote: What do you normally do against a terran who opens reapers? The mscore itself can't prevent the reaper from scouting your base assuming the terran is at all careful- you can throw down the robo in plain sight of the reaper but not the twilight council since it'll be a dead give-away. (At high masters if its any help)
reaper typically comes before your tech buildings are down, so you can change tack before you are committed to both Robo and Citadel tech (it's reasonably close to a MSC/sentry expand with robo fast if you don't make the citadel). No idea how it would play out at pro level ^_^
This is the one thing the article didn't touch on I wish it did. The map is a huge part of why you can do the build, because reapers are far less likely on a map that is so long and has all its jumpable cliffs right at the ramp. Akilon would be okay too, but I wouldn't try it on Planet S.
I wrote some map analysis but monk didn't like it T_T
i seriously did a build similar to this for so long in WoL.. i find it funny how its like all serious now.. So gimmicky.. if terran stim pushes u its pretty much an auto loss.
Why would you need to drop dts if you can get them out quicker and just walk up the guy's ramp? Most terran players don't even have detection a lot of the time. If he turrets at his front, what makes it so hard to just put up turrets in your main?
Seems like a strong build, tried it today at ladder and won a strong opponent quite easily.
By the way, what do you recommend to do if he just sends 4 hellions? Should I perhaps put a probe on watchtower to see it coming and block ramp with 3 pylons?
Definitely a gimmick/surprise build and not something that will be a regular staple... this will get absolutely crushed by hellion openers, any kind of aggressive rax play, and just about anything non standard. I guess if you scout gasless you can do this, but why bother? You could also get double forge at 5:30 and prepare to pave. This build is what we call fancy play syndrome.
That being said, I guess its good to mix in if you're in a BO3-7 and want to throw somebody off guard and possibly collect a fast win.
30/34 Warp Prism Chronoboost Robotics Facility (6) 32/34 Dark Shrine
Can someone explain to me why we build the warp prism so early from the Robo and even chronoboost it before dropping the Dark Shrine? I'm guessing the Warp Prism will make it to the enemy base way before the Dark Shrine is finished, or am I underestimating the Warp Prism build & travel time?
And did Tails warp in the DTs in Ryung's main/natural or outside of the base (then picked them up dropped them)?
On April 07 2013 16:23 Arachne wrote: I have been using this build for almost 20 months now, through Wings of Liberty (where it hits at 8 minutes), to Heart of the Swarm.
Tails build is different to mine in that he expands before placing the robo tech aand the twilight council.
also, yes, his macro is far superior to mine, however so is ryung's to my opponents, so i assume the arguments stand.
The weakness of this build is that it will just str8 up die to any form of widow mine pressure since the observer is so late. Also, any form of reaper pressure leaves you a bit exposed. as far as I know these are the 2 common TvP openings atm.
Finally, going for both double forge, AND collosus, AND charge is almost impossible. if you're follow up is going to be collosus, i'd say a single forge with charge started asap.
in fact, I start as I warp in DT's into the terran's main.
Finally, the great thing about this DT timing, is, even if they have a turret in the main (which they do a lot in WoL), you can snipe the techlab building stim.
if the DT's do no damage, good luck
Gtg, will edit more later.
This build is extremely risky tho, and a fringe build. Wouldn't recommend it for mass ladder. since if DT's fail, its really hard to recover past the ten minute timing push, especially with speed medivacs.
I've got a long experience (since early 2011) with DT drop openings as well and I can say that teching that much behind the drop is pretty much essential to the build. Eventually the Terran is gonna save up enough scans or get a Raven so that you lose your map control and you want your army to be at a "normal" midgame level at that point which they won't be if you transition slowly out of that opening. Until the Terran can push out the DTs can always save you therefor it's not a big risk to tech that hard. Personally I usually go for Storm straight after the DT tech whilst having 2 Forges upgrading. Once Storm is started I just double expand since I still have map control and make 1 Cannon and warp in a HT per new base. With a lot of CB on the Storm upgrade I always get it in time for the Terran push.
I would also say that DT openings are perfectly safe against both Reapers and Widow mines. Delaying the Twilight Council and the Dark Shrine has never been an issue for me thus far. Obviously you want them as fast as possible but going for a MCS-Stalker-WG-tech then Robo-Twilight is still a viable way to open up your DT expand build with. The entire purpose of the build is to drop your Terran opponent before he gets Medivacs and force him to be less aggressive at the 10 minute mark. And with a fast MCS you always have the Photon Overcharge to rely on if he goes for some typ of marine push or widow mine opening. Remember you get a very early Robo so geting an obs out quickly isn't really an issue.
I would say that theese typ of builds are weak against Terrans that don't overreact so that they don't lose more than a couple of SCVs from the first warp in. After that they get 1-2 additional Turrets and just move out once they have stim, combat shield, medivacs and four or more scans. That push is pretty much impossible to hold if you haven't dealt enough damage. The Terran can also delay it a bit and get a Raven but that gives you more time to get storm and/or Colossus out in time.
I tried out this build, and it ended up working amazingly. I managed to not only snipe half his mineral line with 2-3 dt's, but also force the terran's push to become an all-in instead. I know there is a VOD already, but it costs money to view, and for anyone who wanted to see the build in action for themselves, I created a short video showing its highlights. Game was played in masters league, enjoy:
Great write up and great build. I love how Tails is always able to snipe in GTSL, but I'm still surprised Tails tried to do this build a second time to a cheesy player such as Heart. It was so obvious Heart was gonna cheese him, as he doesn't usually do anything but cheese.
Nice build, and a nice write up! I'm guessing it's a one-hit-wonder type of build though. I can't help but think that it would easily be smashed if scouted...
Against Terran I always build a spore and crawler (against mines) and and against Protoss always 2 queens with sometimes a spore if I see air (against phoenix/oracle harass). I don't see this build doing a lot of damage against me if I simply get my spore up before the 7:00 mark, but I suppose this build is specificly made against Terran.
The breakdown looks nice in this article, but I don't think this opener is particularly stronger than other Protoss builds. I'm still much more scared of 2 base all-ins.
On April 07 2013 21:51 Teoita wrote: This isn't meant to be a guide; it was just analysis of one interesting game which showed how openings have changed with hots.
That said, i imagine any kind fast aggression (faster than a standard widow mine drop) or cheese from terran would kill you or do tons of damage. I suppose you can try and get some units out before going for the DT tech, but i don't know anything more specific.
Thank you for the analyzis, and it worked great in lower league. My first game, terran had turrets up, but his army was on his way to kill me, so he had to turn around and deal with the DT's, delaying his push ALOT. Meanwhile I teched up and had such a good economy going. He couldn't even leave base because of the map control. When he finally hit, BAM, time warp and my collossus having the time of his life along with chargelots.
Man, I dont care if some cheese, or other hard counters gets me, Im all for the games when this works. DT's, my favourite unit, their sounds alone make me smile so much.
I think that would reduce the speed alot. Widow mine is not dangerous, since you will warp your units in at the edge of his base, no terran has a widow mine there and even if they do, you should be able to be fast enough to move the WP out of it's range and warp in in a slightly different spot.
I've tested this build a couple of times now and I think it's great to throw into an bo3/bo5. Fastest time I have done it so far was warp in @ 7:24. Still 2 ingame seconds slower than Tails -_- But then again, i've only done it for about 4 times.
I love the position this gets you, because the Terran will not be likely to move out, thus you can add all tech you want. 1 game with this build I had 3/3 by the time the terran had 2/1 , which became an utter massacre (1250 point Master terran)
Haha wow I hope this stays a one hit wonder so Terrans don't learn to expect it. In silver league I went undefeated against over 10 Terran with this and the wins keep climbing (still undefeated against 3-4 Terran in gold). Easy to get the drop before 8min even as a newbie and I almost feel like I'm cheating using this in lower leagues. Thanks!
On April 08 2013 22:15 incogneeto wrote: Haha wow I hope this stays a one hit wonder so Terrans don't learn to expect it. In silver league I went undefeated against over 10 Terran with this and the wins keep climbing (still undefeated against 3-4 Terran in gold). Easy to get the drop before 8min even as a newbie and I almost feel like I'm cheating using this in lower leagues. Thanks!
That's how it works in lower leagues! Copying good players is a good way to climb the ladder
On April 07 2013 15:19 padfoota wrote: Fuck you all I hate dealing with DTs + dropship as terran ><
IMAGINE A FUCKING BANSHEE THAT DOES 50 DAMAGE AND CANNOT BE COUNTERED COMPLETELY BY TURRETS
And people think 1 rax FE still works Sooo many new openers.
Well fuck this you guys wanna play with DTs imma stick to heavy widowmines
I love hearing Terran rage. I almost felt bad for Terran during the ZvZvZvZ days of the past year, but then I remembered GomTvT and Terrans winning tournaments by a moving with the 1-1-1. Oh well, now you know how it feels.
Back in WoL, the build I used that got me to mid masters was extremely similiar to this build. I didn't have the mothership core back then, so I had to make units early, but I didn't have to make a robotics facility because high ground warpin, hallucination, and forward pylon. For my sake, I hope this doesn't catch on because I like using my dark templars.
Best article of the month, hands down to the author!
But I need some further explaining on the no-scouting part. I love to scout early especially in ladder since people can't help themselfs from stupid cheese builds that's easily countered by an early scout.
If I want to implement scouting in this build, when should I send the probe?
what are the advantages of this build VS a 1 base all-in DT rush (GW->core>Twilight->Dark Shrine) with a proxy pylon; I just saw a replay and the firs DT landed at 6'50
The builds have completely different goals, you aren't allining with this of course. Having a nexus up makes it a little more unpredictable and harder to scout. Also, the warp prism helps in catching the terran offguard since they often make a turret at their nat but not one in their main.
Damn, I just beat a masters terran with this (I'm like top dia/low master) despite arriving at 7:50. Problem was I was shit scared during a long time there, didn't really dare to chronoboost probes. Also, I went for the stalker before nexus since it's seems so damn scary :D
On April 09 2013 21:15 ShaolinZorg wrote: what are the advantages of this build VS a 1 base all-in DT rush (GW->core>Twilight->Dark Shrine) with a proxy pylon; I just saw a replay and the firs DT landed at 6'50
The main advantage of this build is that it allows you to transition into a very economic and greedy mid-game, while staying relatively safe.
Because your expanding quickly, you'll be on equal terms with the Terran until your first DTs warp in. At this point, even a low number of scv kills, delaying some tech ( snipping a tech lab ) and forcing turrets is a decent advantage.
It forces the terran to be careful when leaving his base, delaying his first push until he has a decent number of scans piled up.
Meanwhile you're playing fucking greedy. Two forges, robo bay, all with an indecent number of gates ( 2 for a good while.. ). You rely on DT threat and MS core to defend light pushes.
One drawback of this BO, which I learned the hard way, is that it's pretty much a freeloss if your opponent was going for a 1/1/1 with a raven. But against standard play it seems very strong.
On April 09 2013 21:15 ShaolinZorg wrote: what are the advantages of this build VS a 1 base all-in DT rush (GW->core>Twilight->Dark Shrine) with a proxy pylon; I just saw a replay and the firs DT landed at 6'50
The main advantage of this build is that it allows you to transition into a very economic and greedy mid-game, while staying relatively safe.
Because your expanding quickly, you'll be on equal terms with the Terran until your first DTs warp in. At this point, even a low number of scv kills, delaying some tech ( snipping a tech lab ) and forcing turrets is a decent advantage.
It forces the terran to be careful when leaving his base, delaying his first push until he has a decent number of scans piled up.
Meanwhile you're playing fucking greedy. Two forges, robo bay, all with an indecent number of gates ( 2 for a good while.. ). You rely on DT threat and MS core to defend light pushes.
One drawback of this BO, which I learned the hard way, is that it's pretty much a freeloss if your opponent was going for a 1/1/1 with a raven. But against standard play it seems very strong.
I actually beat a terran going for a 1-1-1 although his raven was reactionary to my drop rather than getting it blindly, still a weird game where my extra gates finished as he sieged at my nat with 90% of his scvs, nexus cannon + immortal on tanks is so sexy.
I'm really confused on why Reapers havent been mentioned in this guide, they essentially destroy this build. 1 reaper well get to your base before you've even started a stalker, and mothership core isn't fast enough to deny the scouting/harrass. Since you get the robo + twilight BEFORE your first stalker it means you can't drop them without being scouted.
In my opinion the best move would be to chronoboost a stalker out and play a standard macro game from there.
So have most Terrans on the ladder been blind countering this because of the front page coverage it got? I find whenever somebody comes up with a great new strategy on TL and I try to practice it, everyone is already preparing for their opponents to be doing that. (this assumes most people read TL that I play, which I find a lot do)
Or you could be just fast expanding with 2 probes on each gas. The whole point of double gas before core is that it's incredibly hard for the Terran to read, while 14/20 gas or whatever is much, much more likely to be tech.
all this metagame ^^ . If terran open widow mine he gets behind vs dt drop. If he opens reaper(wich is the best awnser to dt drop) he auto lose vs 12 gate stargate proxy ( 5:09 first oracle ) . :D
On April 10 2013 18:36 steff wrote: Yeah any reaper based build destroys this and to be honest I am seeing most terrans open reaper now so its a real tough spot to be in.
how does it destroy the build?
really, you've got a FE, so you won't be behind in economy... nothing keeps you from building 2 stalkers to ward off the reapers and the threat of the dark shrine should keep him in his base for a while, so you're actually free to tech to SG or robo... or just do whatever you want with DT map presence...
I understand the damage is denied by a reaper opening, but not how it "destroys" the build
I got scouted when I tried this, nothing to do about that. I decided to put down my robo in my base but proxy the citadel and dt shrine. If you are lucky this will put terran even more off.
On April 10 2013 18:56 Teoita wrote: Or you could be just fast expanding with 2 probes on each gas. The whole point of double gas before core is that it's incredibly hard for the Terran to read, while 14/20 gas or whatever is much, much more likely to be tech.
Agreed. There are also some weird delayed sentry-heavy 3-gates that can hit with double gas. At this point in the metagame, double gases can really mean just about anything except a very normal 1-gate FE.
On April 10 2013 18:56 Teoita wrote: Or you could be just fast expanding with 2 probes on each gas. The whole point of double gas before core is that it's incredibly hard for the Terran to read, while 14/20 gas or whatever is much, much more likely to be tech.
Agreed. There are also some weird delayed sentry-heavy 3-gates that can hit with double gas. At this point in the metagame, double gases can really mean just about anything except a very normal 1-gate FE.
On April 10 2013 18:56 Teoita wrote: Or you could be just fast expanding with 2 probes on each gas. The whole point of double gas before core is that it's incredibly hard for the Terran to read, while 14/20 gas or whatever is much, much more likely to be tech.
Agreed. There are also some weird delayed sentry-heavy 3-gates that can hit with double gas. At this point in the metagame, double gases can really mean just about anything except a very normal 1-gate FE.
Double gas 1 gate FE is fairly common too.
I understand, but they weren't quite as popular as the single-gas expands in WoL. EX: MC's 1-gate FE, HuK's 1-gate FE, PartinG's 1-gate FE or Triple Nexus build, etc., etc. Simply put, I agree, but I would still consider 1-gas expand to be the MOST common (at least in WoL).
Double gas is a lot more common in hots though, and this is a hots article. You can get a fast Stalker, Wg and Msc at the same time, and as i said it makes your build a lot harder to read.
On April 07 2013 16:23 Arachne wrote: I have been using this build for almost 20 months now, through Wings of Liberty (where it hits at 8 minutes), to Heart of the Swarm.
Tails build is different to mine in that he expands before placing the robo tech aand the twilight council.
also, yes, his macro is far superior to mine, however so is ryung's to my opponents, so i assume the arguments stand.
The weakness of this build is that it will just str8 up die to any form of widow mine pressure since the observer is so late. Also, any form of reaper pressure leaves you a bit exposed. as far as I know these are the 2 common TvP openings atm.
Finally, going for both double forge, AND collosus, AND charge is almost impossible. if you're follow up is going to be collosus, i'd say a single forge with charge started asap.
in fact, I start as I warp in DT's into the terran's main.
Finally, the great thing about this DT timing, is, even if they have a turret in the main (which they do a lot in WoL), you can snipe the techlab building stim.
if the DT's do no damage, good luck
Gtg, will edit more later.
This build is extremely risky tho, and a fringe build. Wouldn't recommend it for mass ladder. since if DT's fail, its really hard to recover past the ten minute timing push, especially with speed medivacs.
I've got a long experience (since early 2011) with DT drop openings as well and I can say that teching that much behind the drop is pretty much essential to the build. Eventually the Terran is gonna save up enough scans or get a Raven so that you lose your map control and you want your army to be at a "normal" midgame level at that point which they won't be if you transition slowly out of that opening. Until the Terran can push out the DTs can always save you therefor it's not a big risk to tech that hard. Personally I usually go for Storm straight after the DT tech whilst having 2 Forges upgrading. Once Storm is started I just double expand since I still have map control and make 1 Cannon and warp in a HT per new base. With a lot of CB on the Storm upgrade I always get it in time for the Terran push.
I would also say that DT openings are perfectly safe against both Reapers and Widow mines. Delaying the Twilight Council and the Dark Shrine has never been an issue for me thus far. Obviously you want them as fast as possible but going for a MCS-Stalker-WG-tech then Robo-Twilight is still a viable way to open up your DT expand build with. The entire purpose of the build is to drop your Terran opponent before he gets Medivacs and force him to be less aggressive at the 10 minute mark. And with a fast MCS you always have the Photon Overcharge to rely on if he goes for some typ of marine push or widow mine opening. Remember you get a very early Robo so geting an obs out quickly isn't really an issue.
I would say that theese typ of builds are weak against Terrans that don't overreact so that they don't lose more than a couple of SCVs from the first warp in. After that they get 1-2 additional Turrets and just move out once they have stim, combat shield, medivacs and four or more scans. That push is pretty much impossible to hold if you haven't dealt enough damage. The Terran can also delay it a bit and get a Raven but that gives you more time to get storm and/or Colossus out in time.
Your build is what I do as well. HT tech with charge and double forge is a lot less gas intensive than collosus with charge and double forge.
Templar Archive + storm + 2 HT - 450 minerals 700 gas Robo bay + range + 2 collo = 1000 minerals + 800 gas.
The tempalr archive follow up is more defensive in my opinion, and a safer option, and allows for early charge and forges.
This build is like a massive tech switch into a different tech tree. At least if you are late with the storm, you can still get archon's. a single collosus without range vs a bio ball is pretty bad.
2 Colossi with range aren't comperable to 2 templar, i'd argue that 2 colossi and 4 templar is a better comparison. A single colossus with no range is stronger vs early bio balls than an archon; 1 colo no range > templar was done a whole lot, while none ever did 1-2 archons > colo with no storm.
Templar are always more gas intensive, which is why you can afford Colossus and range + a few stalkers as well as blink on 2bases, but if you want to go ht you will basically only warp in zealots for a long time.
You already have both a robo and a twilight council so you aren't doing an absolutely massive tech switch, either AoE requires just one building.
I agree that templar tech is more defensive, but it's harder for that tech to kick in which is why DT builds more commonly go into Colossus (see hero's and rain's WoL games on Cloud Kingdom). Templar tech is doable (shy vs mkp from GSL) but a lot harder to pull off (see what happened in game 1).
Teoita, I actually gave the maths immediately above. The problem is the ten minute timing push, so you aren't going to have tons of units. Unless I got my figures wrong (which is possible), collosus use 550 more minerals (2 gate ways and a forge) and 100 more gas.
The problem i am talking about specifically is the double forge with the collosus. Even creator prime went into chargelots HT with his double forge, where the mmajority of robo builds in WoL used single forge collosus going into double forge once +1 armour was done for a very good reason. Collosus need more gas to make an impact on the defensive than HT's do
In fact that is the SOLE point of the discussion. I am saying that to go double forge WITH charge AND collo AND range is suicide if any form of disruption and/or pressure comes at you, and if you go dt's, unless you win the game right there, pressure always comes at you.
Instead, if you go HT, you can get storm out in time, and hold the ten minute push easier, and then tech switch into collo.
If you are wanting to be really aggressive, than collosus is great. however, if the push fails or your micro isnt good or you are off with your timings, collosus with double forge is a problem
Not to mention the problem toss will have if its a fake pressure at the front and a double medivac drop on the probe line with either build.
Speed medivacs after DT's aren't fun. and the correct way to counter DT's heavy tech style would be drop in a place that is not expected, especially since no one builds/correctly places obs for drop defense yet.
With double forge you aren't going to be aggressive no matter what your first aoe is at least until 2/2, and more likely until 3/3.
Also no matter what your aoe choice is, if you go dt's and do zero damage holding off the medivac timing is impossible, see shy vs mkp on star station.
Which pro games and builds can you reference to show your points?
Hmm tried this.. around 8 wins 2 losses so far. Tho I can't hit the exact 7:22. Most of the time I am late by like 20 ~ 30s lol (high dia (but I beat couple of GMs and more Masters T)
So according to the guide in the Terran help me thread, 1 rax gasless FE is essentially obsolete now. Opening reaper is the way to go. And according to teoita, reaper expands are very good against this build.
Does that kill the build? We could proxy the templar tech, but they could infer that through counting pylons.Could we make a stalker and delay the build by a little bit? that certainly doesn't guarantee a failed reaper scout either. I suppose if it's scouted you could attempt to take a fast third and keep a warp prism with a dt in it near their main, but that seems unreliable as well...
It just seems to me that there are no terrans who go gasless FE.
PS- i also wanted to ask how to react against terrans who block their ramp with an early depot. All the guides I see say that it's bad to get your probe blocked out of their base. But at the same time they can guarantee this if they do it early. I suppose it delays orbital and gas? Then again they could get earlier double gas. It could mean that we get vision of any addons on the barracks but not if they queue their first 3 marines down the ramp.
1rax fe is still a viable build, but it's not the obvious best macro opening anymore.
You can't really proxy the templar tech with this build. All the tech goes down close to your second pylon, which makes it essentially impossible to hide it. Getting a stalker and delaying the drop is the best idea.
Getting your probe blocked out by a depo is no big deal, what guides are you talking about? Scouting is fairly easy, especially if you are going stalker+msc. A nice trick is to know your timings well so you can check wether he's getting an addon after his first marine, which will pop at around 3:07; if he's making a second marine immediately it will be out at 3:32. Checking between these two timings with the probe will allow you to see a low ground cc or addon being made (or reaper moving out i guess but i'm not sure on that) and that allows you to narrow down on what the T could be doing. Finally, you will never see a second gas with your probe anyway. Terran doesn't need that much gas that early.
On April 12 2013 16:59 Teoita wrote: 1rax fe is still a viable build, but it's not the obvious best macro opening anymore.
You can't really proxy the templar tech with this build. All the tech goes down close to your second pylon, which makes it essentially impossible to hide it. Getting a stalker and delaying the drop is the best idea.
Getting your probe blocked out by a depo is no big deal, what guides are you talking about? Scouting is fairly easy, especially if you are going stalker+msc. A nice trick is to know your timings well so you can check wether he's getting an addon after his first marine, which will pop at around 3:07; if he's making a second marine immediately it will be out at 3:32. Checking between these two timings with the probe will allow you to see a low ground cc or addon being made (or reaper moving out i guess but i'm not sure on that) and that allows you to narrow down on what the T could be doing. Finally, you will never see a second gas with your probe anyway. Terran doesn't need that much gas that early.
Okay. Thanks for the help, I'll keep that in mind. Do you ever perform the build if you scout reaper expand? Have you yourself built a stalker to defend the reaper and delayed the drop?
On April 12 2013 16:59 Teoita wrote: 1rax fe is still a viable build, but it's not the obvious best macro opening anymore.
You can't really proxy the templar tech with this build. All the tech goes down close to your second pylon, which makes it essentially impossible to hide it. Getting a stalker and delaying the drop is the best idea.
Getting your probe blocked out by a depo is no big deal, what guides are you talking about? Scouting is fairly easy, especially if you are going stalker+msc. A nice trick is to know your timings well so you can check wether he's getting an addon after his first marine, which will pop at around 3:07; if he's making a second marine immediately it will be out at 3:32. Checking between these two timings with the probe will allow you to see a low ground cc or addon being made (or reaper moving out i guess but i'm not sure on that) and that allows you to narrow down on what the T could be doing. Finally, you will never see a second gas with your probe anyway. Terran doesn't need that much gas that early.
Okay. Thanks for the help, I'll keep that in mind. Do you ever perform the build if you scout reaper expand? Have you yourself built a stalker to defend the reaper and delayed the drop?
I've done the build a couple times versus a reaper expand. I usually don't delay the robo, I don't really care if he scouts it cause it could very well be a 1 gate robo expand, in fact it may cause him to misread the build.
The twilight however has to be delayed until the first stalker is out. If he makes more than one reaper ( happened once ), then you're not going to be able to hide the twilight no matter what. But I still went for the build, although a bit delayed ( 8-8'15 ) and I think it's still effective.
Sometimes you won't be able to do eco damage, cause the Terran will put turrets in his mineral lines. But you can still destroy the tech lab researching stim, the reactor on the factory/stargate, and other key tech structures. Threat of DTs delays a bit the medivac timing push.
One important thing against reaper expand, since it forces you to delay your twilight/dark shrine by a bit, I drop my robo bay very quickly, in fact before the dark shrine is finished. The gas accumulates no matter what, and at 8'+ you'll have enough gas for your two reapers as well as the first colossus. That way, even if you do no economic damage, you can still get a couple colossus in time for the medivac timing.
It's pretty fun to see some terrans go for 1 rax gasless expo, get 2 engy bays and a third CC in-base, and get demolished by this DT play. In WoL you couldn't punish a Terran for playing greedy, this is now possible in HOTS, I love it.
This is a beautiful build with absolutely golden timings. This build feels really easy to pull off and almost magical at times with how well everything lines up (warp prism gets to opponent's base as DT shrine finishes and you have 2 idle gateways). Really love this one, would like to play around with it more.
I saw polt losing to this in zotac. So sad to watch as a terran player. You can't expect terrans to go standard double turret, because you know, there are other allins that crush you then (immortal allin, blink allin)
On April 14 2013 07:43 monkybone wrote: How does this fare against reaper openings?
From what I've seen in this thread, the general response for a reaper is getting a stalker out and delaying the DTs until around 8:00. You can try to hide the dark shrine or just put it down after you kill off the reaper. But even if the reaper scouts your dark shrine, it's not the end of the world; you can still put on some pressure and delay a terran push long enough to get colossus/charge up.
2 DTs are powerfull enough to take down some marines... how many units do you really have to kill them when going that fast 3cc? (and since DTs are faster than marines, they can simply run away from the scan area and damage somewhere else).
also, the protoss FE'd himself, if you can't damage him (punishing for early expand with so few units), not being able to deal damage against the terran is not that bad.
On April 16 2013 01:07 tisalgado wrote: 2 DTs are powerfull enough to take down some marines... how many units do you really have to kill them when going that fast 3cc? (and since DTs are faster than marines, they can simply run away from the scan area and damage somewhere else).
also, the protoss FE'd himself, if you can't damage him (punishing for early expand with so few units), not being able to deal damage against the terran is not that bad.
2nd try : If i have 3 cc's, i have 1 scan more which should be safe against dt's until turrets are up, right or no?
So, I just faced a reaper opener with this build. He entered twice. First time he scouted robo and twilight and second time (which was bad by me...) he saw the shrine.
What do you guys do when your shrine gets scouted? I had my prism out so I went for a single dt drop, trying to not invest too much into it but it didn't do any damage at all.
After the game he flamed me (I won in a looong game) and said I "was doing all-in" and that he held it without losses but wasn't ahead. I've never thought of this build as an all-in? Just an aggressive opener that is designed to stop the terran from going the 2 mine drop?
On April 16 2013 03:05 NVRLand wrote: So, I just faced a reaper opener with this build. He entered twice. First time he scouted robo and twilight and second time (which was bad by me...) he saw the shrine.
What do you guys do when your shrine gets scouted? I had my prism out so I went for a single dt drop, trying to not invest too much into it but it didn't do any damage at all.
After the game he flamed me (I won in a looong game) and said I "was doing all-in" and that he held it without losses but wasn't ahead. I've never thought of this build as an all-in? Just an aggressive opener that is designed to stop the terran from going the 2 mine drop?
I played a similar game from the Terran side and found this build to be unimpressive. I was able to go up to 4 CCs on relatively minimal infrastructure after deflecting the harass without losing any SCVs. The fundamental problem with the build, IMO, is that it doesn't really give you any offensive tools if the harass doesn't do damage. You're stuck either doing a late 2-base Archon or Colossus all-in against an opponent who's going to have a food advantage. My opponent tried to take a third and get double forge, but I simply steamrolled him as soon as my medivacs came out. I was able to drop so many mules that I literally doubled his income as he tried to get his third operational. I'm really not getting the hype around this build.
On April 16 2013 03:05 NVRLand wrote: So, I just faced a reaper opener with this build. He entered twice. First time he scouted robo and twilight and second time (which was bad by me...) he saw the shrine.
What do you guys do when your shrine gets scouted? I had my prism out so I went for a single dt drop, trying to not invest too much into it but it didn't do any damage at all.
After the game he flamed me (I won in a looong game) and said I "was doing all-in" and that he held it without losses but wasn't ahead. I've never thought of this build as an all-in? Just an aggressive opener that is designed to stop the terran from going the 2 mine drop?
I played a similar game from the Terran side and found this build to be unimpressive. I was able to go up to 4 CCs on relatively minimal infrastructure after deflecting the harass without losing any SCVs. The fundamental problem with the build, IMO, is that it doesn't really give you any offensive tools if the harass doesn't do damage. You're stuck either doing a late 2-base Archon or Colossus all-in against an opponent who's going to have a food advantage. My opponent tried to take a third and get double forge, but I simply steamrolled him as soon as my medivacs came out. I was able to drop so many mules that I literally doubled his income as he tried to get his third operational. I'm really not getting the hype around this build.
I have given it a go a few times. It really is the definition of an all-or-nothing build and I wouldn't be shocked if it was made completely irrelevant in a week or two with Terrans doing some simple modifications to their standard openers. I won once with it because the Terran crapped himself and didn't defend well at all, but when it was defended properly I felt massively behind. It is a build to add to your arsenal to do once in a while, not one to use every game, especially as it becomes more common because it will become even easier to tell when it is being done.
Just played a few tosses that did this. Scouted the final toss thoroughly, and saw it coming. Went to his base and decimated him. It seems like every toss on ladder is doing this.
this build is getting overused worse than any build ive seen posted on TL, im almost in top 8 masters just from the auto wins im getting against tosses doing this every game.
Guys, if you watch his stream, you'll notice this is a really solid build. You don't have to go dts if you don't want to - skip the twilight council, get a robo bay at about 7 min and go double forge colossus. He gets 3 stalkers, then adds 2 sentries and seems to be so safe from most standard builds. Unless your opponent goes 11-11 marine scv all in, it seems pretty hard to auto-lose to anything with this build because it accounts for the majority if not all current builds.
Regarding laddering at lower levels or whatever, i always say that the key to "improving" isn't so much just macroing as much as possible or whatever, but simply enjoying the game. Mechanics/micro/macro/whatever come naturally if you have fun, because you are more likely to play more games (ie practice more). This is a good example of a build that is a little gimmicky but it's fun so it might push a player to simply play more, so yeah, i think it's worth learning even if it's a little risky.
This is my standard build in PvT. One thing that I want to note is that it doesn't matter if the Terran scouted it and has some turrets in his mineral lines.
I target the tech lab reseaching stim first. In a good number of games, my DTs harass can delay stim until the 14' mark. The stim + medivac timing just doesn't happen.
If I see that there are no turrets in the mineral lines, I harass the workers of course, but otherwise I target all the reactors / tech labs. I think it's worth being mentionned, since a lot of people seem to think that if the Terran is prepared with turrets, you can't do any damage..
Also, I delay the DT attack a little bit to drop a robo bay right before the dark shrine finishes. All while I'm harassing DTs, I've already started the production of colossus. I delay double forge until the 10' mark too.
On May 13 2013 21:29 Teoita wrote: Regarding laddering at lower levels or whatever, i always say that the key to "improving" isn't so much just macroing as much as possible or whatever, but simply enjoying the game. Mechanics/micro/macro/whatever come naturally if you have fun, because you are more likely to play more games (ie practice more). This is a good example of a build that is a little gimmicky but it's fun so it might push a player to simply play more, so yeah, i think it's worth learning even if it's a little risky.
I don't know if you were responding to me, but I'm simply enjoying the game by learning good builds, which will help my micro/macro, so I don't really understand your point. As if I just came up with my own builds (like now), I feel my game-sense will be limited.
On May 13 2013 22:47 Nyast wrote: This is my standard build in PvT. One thing that I want to note is that it doesn't matter if the Terran scouted it and has some turrets in his mineral lines.
I target the tech lab reseaching stim first. In a good number of games, my DTs harass can delay stim until the 14' mark. The stim + medivac timing just doesn't happen.
EPT
TAiLS factor. Save for perhaps 
GuMiho and ![[image loading]](/staff/monk/strategy_writeup/TailRyung/TailsRyung1.jpg)
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![[image loading]](/staff/monk/strategy_writeup/TailRyung/TailsRyung3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/monk/strategy_writeup/TailRyung/TailsRyung4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e5ihRj4.png)
(yes I'm that poor as of the moment lol)
JangBi uses similar build vs 
Snow
